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Re: Well said

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Shakin77 – on
Just grabbing the low hanging fruit with no insight or analysis at all.   Pretty much what First Crack is.


Too many footy shows at the moment, all need to make noise.   Make an opinion based on a couple of clips of vision and then state it as fact.  then the other shows pick up the theme then run with it.   they all think they are US opinion shows now (colin cowherd, steven a smith   etc)

A few on this thread have made great points saying this.  none of the "experts" watch carlton as closely as we do.  And, yes, some of them have access to "data" - but we know how misleading this can be  

Re: Well said

Reply #31 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: Lods – on
One of the problems we're facing is we are being judged in the moment.
And that's fair.
The question is..."Is what Carlton are producing at present the best they are capable of?"... and I reckon the answer to that is an emphatic "no"

McGovern,Saad, Curnow and Boyd are actually pretty gold field kicks. Cripps has a pretty decent handball.  And that's for starters. The problem is that they all seem a little off at the moment. No one seems at their best, except maybe De Koning.

I tend to agree with this.   we have known for a couple of years now that we lack a little bit of class on the outside.  but i dont think its as bad as ALL the talk shows have now jumped on.  all of a sudden we have the worst kicking/disposal team of all time.   this wasnt an issue half way thru last year (with much the same list) - but now a few guys are down on confidence, and its now a major issue

Re: Well said

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Milhanna13 – on
A few on this thread have made great points saying this.  none of the "experts" watch carlton as closely as we do.  And, yes, some of them have access to "data" - but we know how misleading this can be  

I would also assume that covering all the AFL games the experts do, that they have little time to have a look at VFL games and see what's available as replacements,  and who is in form.

They would only go on exposed form from last year...so they would say things like "Why is Binns not getting a game?" because he pushed hard with big possession numbers last year,  not knowing his form at present dosen't warrant it.

Re: Well said

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Milhanna13 – on
Quote from: Shakin77 – on
Just grabbing the low hanging fruit with no insight or analysis at all.   Pretty much what First Crack is.


Too many footy shows at the moment, all need to make noise.   Make an opinion based on a couple of clips of vision and then state it as fact.  then the other shows pick up the theme then run with it.   they all think they are US opinion shows now (colin cowherd, steven a smith   etc)

A few on this thread have made great points saying this.  none of the "experts" watch carlton as closely as we do.  And, yes, some of them have access to "data" - but we know how misleading this can be  
I dont necessarily agree with some of the above Mil. I'll pose to you that many of "us" watch the Carlton with the navy blue goggles on. I reckon the good analysts watch all teams without biased, you can tell who these one are. I happened to be with the brother of one the TV analysts last week actually who shared with me the power of work his brother does watching every game pouring over the stats and tactics to arrive at what is presented.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Well said

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Quote from: Milhanna13 – on


Too many footy shows at the moment, all need to make noise.   Make an opinion based on a couple of clips of vision and then state it as fact.  then the other shows pick up the theme then run with it.   they all think they are US opinion shows now (colin cowherd, steven a smith   etc)

A few on this thread have made great points saying this.  none of the "experts" watch carlton as closely as we do.  And, yes, some of them have access to "data" - but we know how misleading this can be  
I dont necessarily agree with some of the above Mil. I'll pose to you that many of "us" watch the Carlton with the navy blue goggles on. I reckon the good analysts watch all teams without biased, you can tell who these one are. I happened to be with the brother of one the TV analysts last week actually who shared with me the power of work his brother does watching every game pouring over the stats and tactics to arrive at what is presented.
You don't have to be an analyst to work out we are 0-4 and got knocked over by a kiddie team in Richmond rnd 1 and were made to look like schoolboys vs Southport in the VFL.
Of course the footy shows are going to pick us apart and we deserve it.
The vision doesn't lie and the analysts just highlight what we already know...

Re: Well said

Reply #35 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You don't have to be an analyst to work out we are 0-4 and got knocked over by a kiddie team in Richmond rnd 1 and were made to look like schoolboys vs Southport in the VFL.
Of course the footy shows are going to pick us apart and we deserve it.
The vision doesn't lie and the analysts just highlight what we already know...

Everyone is dancing around the obvious though.

Identifying issues is easy.

Nobody has come up with a viable option to fix them though.

Kings suggestion of moving our midfield to the backline doesn't solve an issue....and it actually creates another one.

Everyone can point the finger.....some will be right. Thats the easy part though

Re: Well said

Reply #36 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You don't have to be an analyst to work out we are 0-4 and got knocked over by a kiddie team in Richmond rnd 1 and were made to look like schoolboys vs Southport in the VFL.
Of course the footy shows are going to pick us apart and we deserve it.
The vision doesn't lie and the analysts just highlight what we already know...

Everyone is dancing around the obvious though.

Identifying issues is easy.

Nobody has come up with a viable option to fix them though.

Kings suggestion of moving our midfield to the backline doesn't solve an issue....and it actually creates another one.

Everyone can point the finger.....some will be right. Thats the easy part though
Voss started the moving players to different roles and we should go back to what worked. We don't have the list or talent to get cute with too many team changes.
Our problems are woeful list management and a coach who struggles with tactics.
Not a good combo and one that can only be fixed or started to be fixed at seasons end imo.Sacking coaches won't achieve anything mid season...

Re: Well said

Reply #37 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


Everyone is dancing around the obvious though.

Identifying issues is easy.

Nobody has come up with a viable option to fix them though.

Kings suggestion of moving our midfield to the backline doesn't solve an issue....and it actually creates another one.

Everyone can point the finger.....some will be right. Thats the easy part though
Voss started the moving players to different roles and we should go back to what worked. We don't have the list or talent to get cute with too many team changes.
Our problems are woeful list management and a coach who struggles with tactics.
Not a good combo and one that can only be fixed or started to be fixed at seasons end imo.Sacking coaches won't achieve anything mid season...

As i said, identifying the problem is easy.
I've been shouting from the rafters to anyone who would listen.....and not many did....that our list management has been poor.
Our drafting/trading in the off-season was poor......for many years, but especially this year with the Jagga trade retread inclusions.

None of this is fixable mid-year.
None of this should fall on the coaches head.
None of this SHOULD persist into 2026 if we do the right thing in the off-season THIS time.

Until then, we suck it up.

Personally, Silavgni is doing well down back. Kemp had a decent game up forward. However, i think we are better off with Kemp back (quicker and more agile than SOJ) and Silvagni forward (smarter and makes things happen).

I don't mind Ollie in defence. There's not too many other changes from last year.

What changes should/could we make this year??
Haynes should be fighting for a spot with McGovern and Kemp down back for 3rd tall. Young if good enough should be given some time to settle down back in a last ditch effort to fill that hole. Otherwise, give Lemmey a go down back. I know he's been training forward, but we NEED a back.
Harry should be trialled at CHB. His field kicking is good. He won't have to worry about the yips, or getting triple teamed up forward. He can follow an opponent around all day and push and shove without worrying about the little man in his head.
Boyd should be trialled forward if they refuse to play him down back.
Fogarty and Durdin if they are so good at pressure should be played in defence.
Give Motlop and Moir time one-out from the goal square to generate some shots on goal.

Re: Well said

Reply #38 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on

Voss started the moving players to different roles and we should go back to what worked. We don't have the list or talent to get cute with too many team changes.
Our problems are woeful list management and a coach who struggles with tactics.
Not a good combo and one that can only be fixed or started to be fixed at seasons end imo.Sacking coaches won't achieve anything mid season...

As i said, identifying the problem is easy.
I've been shouting from the rafters to anyone who would listen.....and not many did....that our list management has been poor.
Our drafting/trading in the off-season was poor......for many years, but especially this year with the Jagga trade retread inclusions.

None of this is fixable mid-year.
None of this should fall on the coaches head.
None of this SHOULD persist into 2026 if we do the right thing in the off-season THIS time.

Until then, we suck it up.

Personally, Silavgni is doing well down back. Kemp had a decent game up forward. However, i think we are better off with Kemp back (quicker and more agile than SOJ) and Silvagni forward (smarter and makes things happen).

I don't mind Ollie in defence. There's not too many other changes from last year.

What changes should/could we make this year??
Haynes should be fighting for a spot with McGovern and Kemp down back for 3rd tall. Young if good enough should be given some time to settle down back in a last ditch effort to fill that hole. Otherwise, give Lemmey a go down back. I know he's been training forward, but we NEED a back.
Harry should be trialled at CHB. His field kicking is good. He won't have to worry about the yips, or getting triple teamed up forward. He can follow an opponent around all day and push and shove without worrying about the little man in his head.
Boyd should be trialled forward if they refuse to play him down back.
Fogarty and Durdin if they are so good at pressure should be played in defence.
Give Motlop and Moir time one-out from the goal square to generate some shots on goal.


Yep
Rather than dropping players try some positional moves.
It probably needs to be done in a staged manner rather than all at once
I agree with most of the options. They're worth a try.
One thing I would like to see is Boyd playing wing/half forward.
He's one of the few players I feel confident about with the ball in his hands.
But not too far forward.
We need him picking out our forwards on the lead.

Re: Well said

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Lods – on

We need him picking out our forwards on the lead.
Our forwards lead? News to me.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Well said

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Quote from: Lods – on

We need him picking out our forwards on the lead.
Our forwards lead? News to me.

They don't because the blokes kicking in drop it on their heads.
Or they pick out the opposition backs....and our guys have to turn around and defend.
They're inaccurate or kick long and hope.
Now if you had a couple of players like Boyd picking you out (instead of taking most of the kick-ins), you'd be leading all over the shop.

Re: Well said

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Our forwards lead? News to me.

They don't because the blokes kicking in drop it on their heads.
Or they pick out the opposition backs....and our guys have to turn around and defend.
They're inaccurate or kick long and hope.
Now if you had a couple of players like Boyd picking you out (instead of taking most of the kick-ins), you'd be leading all over the shop.

Ill say to you the ball gets bombed because the fwds are stagnant and in packs or in a crowded fwd line. Good fwds read the ball carrier (whether it be a centre clearance or a run from the HB or the wing) and get on their bike, the ball carrier puts in the hole for them to run onto. Good fwds do their work early and quick. Our fwds dont lead anywhere near enough, our fwds (IMO) are not well coached.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Well said

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Quote from: Lods – on


They don't because the blokes kicking in drop it on their heads.
Or they pick out the opposition backs....and our guys have to turn around and defend.
They're inaccurate or kick long and hope.
Now if you had a couple of players like Boyd picking you out (instead of taking most of the kick-ins), you'd be leading all over the shop.

Ill say to you the ball gets bombed because the fwds are stagnant and in packs or in a crowded fwd line. Good fwds read the ball carrier (whether it be a centre clearance or a run from the HB or the wing) and get on their bike, the ball carrier puts in the hole for them to run onto. Good fwds do their work early and quick. Our fwds dont lead anywhere near enough, our fwds (IMO) are not well coached.

There are probably three aspects to the problem...and yes, it is to a large extent on the coaches, but also the players...and once again the available talent.

The first one is structure...our forward line doesn't possess it at present because our key strengths in Curnow and McKay aren't there or down on form.

The second one is the fact that our small forwards are either defensive. or lacking in ability to be damaging on the scoreboard.

And the third one is our entry into the forward line, and that's a two part issue...the stagnancy you mention and the accuracy of our mids in terms of spotting up and hitting the forwards.

We often find our forwards making good position only to be ignored or missed.

Re: Well said

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Lods – on
There are probably three aspects to the problem...and yes, it is to a large extent on the coaches, but also the players...and once again the available talent.

The first one is structure...our forward line doesn't possess it at present because our key strengths in Curnow and McKay aren't there or down on form.

The second one is the fact that our small forwards are either defensive. or lacking in ability to be damaging on the scoreboard.

And the third one is our entry into the forward line, and that's a two part issue...the stagnancy you mention and the accuracy of our mids in terms of spotting up and hitting the forwards.

We often find our forwards making good position only to be ignored or missed.

All valid points Lods. Surely the fwd group (ie all the blokes who were a chance to be in the fwd line) has just come off a pre-season working on positioning, structures, patterns, set plays, connection with team mates up the ground. Surely the coach of the fwds has some clue about the above and has worked on it with them?
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership
 

Re: Well said

Reply #44 –
We have pondered these same questions for many seasons now but the answers seem to continue to be elusive.
Reality always wins in the end.