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Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #105 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: pertz – on
Although not all his fault, this does not bode well:
FACT: Michael Voss has coached 194 games for 88 wins, 104 losses, and two draws. His 45.88% win percentage is the second-worst among active coaches who have coached at least 40 games.
I didn't actually realise his he's record was that bad.


Does that include his time at Brisbane.
I'd think his Carlton record is much better than that.
(Edit- Thanks Kruds)

He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #106 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
@kruddler continuing on that average age chat, was just doing some various mental gymnastics about sides and average ages.

It could be right, but I think its being over stated somewhat.

Off thr top of my head our oldest players today would have been cripps, docherty, Williams, saad, haynes, McGovern.   Acres probably a smidgeon behind them.  The rest are all under that age or thereabouts. 

So it may very well be thr oldest average, but we dont exactly have a cliff coming where the rest of the side is in dire straights.

@Thryleon
A better breakdown of current ages
30+:
6 - Cripps, McGovern, Williams, Saad, Docherty, Haynes
Missing 1 - Newman
27-29:
7 - Silvagni, Weitering, Curnow, Cincotta, Hewett, Acres, Fantasia -
Missing 2 - Pittonet, McKay
25-26:
5 - Boyd, L. Young, Fogarty, Cerra, De Koning
Missing 2 - Cottrell, Walsh*** turns 25 next week

Thats 18 players....
From the rest who played....

23: 1 - FYoung.
21: 2 - Motlop, O. Hollands
20: 2 - Lord, Wilson

Don't know what considers a 'cliff', but you'd expect better from that group if they were fit.

Biggest issue with that list is the younger age brackets.
eg 25-26 has 5 players.
TDK will walk.
L. Young and Boyd are not considered best 22, Fogarty might be, but only just.
Cerra only managed 17 touches last night and thats not good enough.
 
yeah cool.  So it was a bit on the older side.  Using that guideline, we need to get better and younger, and thats where last years draft haul comes in hopefully.  

When I say the cliff, it's similar to the one we hit early 2000's.  Older players breaking down and becoming ineffective, not enough young coming through.

We should be capable of bringing in a couple of free agents in the coming seasons.

The thing about age though its not what it used to be.  Where Bradley was an outlier, we should see players go a bit longer.  Not in all cases but the way players go you'd have to say 33 years old is the end on a very general level.  Some will go earlier some later but the way sports science has gone its conceivable to go that long.  Thing is all of them have broken down alot and some have shouldered bigger loads for longer.  Might break them earlier.

This is why I'm against trading McKay and walsh if tdk walks.  If he stays, maybe McKay, but I dont like the idea of trading out key forwards.  Call PTSD from having exactly 0 viable key position players but jarrad Waite and fevola for years, and taking 10 years to find the ones we have.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #107 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Quote from: Lods – on


Does that include his time at Brisbane.
I'd think his Carlton record is much better than that.
(Edit- Thanks Kruds)

He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.
Our club is a coach killer. We need to analyse the cause of this and address it before we look at getting any more lambs in for the slaughter. I’m sick of it and embarrassed.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #108 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.
Our club is a coach killer. We need to analyse the cause of this and address it before we look at getting any more lambs in for the slaughter. I’m sick of it and embarrassed.

100% agree. On a high level:
- They value their past more than they value the future.
- They have overrated their lists for years (decades)
- There is an culture that when it gets too hard, players switch off and dont try knowing the club will make the change of coach.
- My recent favourite "We are financially thriving and spiritually bankrupt".
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #109 –
1000% agree.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #110 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: pertz – on
I really don't have anything to add to what has already been said.
There's a number of reasons why we have gone so pair shaped, it's not a simple fix.
Whoever can fix this mess deserves the keys to the city and a bronze statue outside PP.

If you know any good exorcists, now might be a good time to get in touch.

 :))  :))  :)) see, you're an optimist just like this sucker little black duck.

Okay, let's get our recruiting team to locate some Catholic priests, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Jewish priests, hec, throw in a Sharman or two, coupla Buddhist monks... mmm, maybe not our recruiting team ::)
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #111 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Quote from: Lods – on


Does that include his time at Brisbane.
I'd think his Carlton record is much better than that.
(Edit- Thanks Kruds)

He's the best coach we have had in a very long time. The smart arses here will say that's not hard but give him better players and watch the change.

And I thought I was a sucker optimist  ;)  ;D
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17
 

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #112 –
@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

I cant think of a club thats had as many coaches as we have in such a short period.  Going back to 99.

Parkin
Britain
Pagan
Ratten
Malthouse
Barker
Bolton
Teague
Voss
Hansen *1 game covering voss absence.

10 senior coaches in 25 years.  An average of 2.5 years each.  This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.

Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme.  Who's another basket case for most of this century?

Melbourne.  They've had 7 senior coaches.  Who else?  Freo?  4.

Who else?  Essendon and the saints equal our record.

There's a theme there.  Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #113 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
:))  :))  :)) see, you're an optimist just like this sucker little black duck.

Okay, let's get our recruiting team to locate some Catholic priests, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Jewish priests, hec, throw in a Sharman or two, coupla Buddhist monks... mmm, maybe not our recruiting team ::)

We all get the s h i t s and get disillusioned from time to time, but in the long term being optimistic and hopeful is the only way IMO.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #114 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: Baggers – on
:))  :))  :)) see, you're an optimist just like this sucker little black duck.

Okay, let's get our recruiting team to locate some Catholic priests, Orthodox Greek, Russian and Jewish priests, hec, throw in a Sharman or two, coupla Buddhist monks... mmm, maybe not our recruiting team ::)

We all get the s h i t s and get disillusioned from time to time, but in the long term being optimistic and hopeful is the only way IMO.


I think that we are all on here posting away betrays us as incorrigible optimists. Pessimists would long since have slashed their wrists.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #115 –
After a wonderful meal of rocket, heirloom tomatoes, avo, bok choy, proper Greek cheese, bacon, olive oil, balsamic, anchovies and authentic sourdough bread (no alcohol, sadly, would have liked a strong red) it's time to ponder:

To be read to the tune of Ian Dury and the Blockheads, Reasons to be Cheerful, pt 3.

Reasons to keep Vossy:
So we don't appear to be repeating the mistakes of the past. Bad optics and perpetuates the negative myth of how the Blues solve problems.
He's bubbly and positive. Always positive. "Our metrics and KPIs are amazing... it's only a matter of time".
Is so much better than the bloke before him.
He's a past champion, captain and player. (Declaration from the author: I really like Traralgon. It's a much better place than Juddy (snobbish pr1ck, said). Coming from Traralgon is a huge plus for Vossy).
He was a Blues supporter as a kid.
Served an apprenticeship under prominent and multiple premiership coach, Ken Hinkley  ;D .
Learned so much since being thrust, prematurely, into the coaching job at BrisVegas. Not his fault he failed.
He's nice.
His winning % is acceptable.
Embraces the varying agendas of certain Board Members.
He's a genuinely caring, compassionate and smiley person.
Doesn't ruffle conservative feathers.
Works diligently to sell the Board's, media dept's., football dept's., PR dept's., agenda. Phew. How does he find the energy to coach!!
Did I mention, he's always able to put an amazing spin on how failure is not a problem?
And... we don't want to appear to be repeating the mistakes of the past sackings. Did I mention that?

Reasons to sack Vossy, Pt 3.
Consistency of performance from qtr to qtr and game to game. (Two qtr Blues).
Solving problems of poor midfield to forward 50 connection - hasn't. Only been a problem for... oh, let's see... Years!!!!!
Inconsistency - not fixed or even stated as to why... ssshhhh, supporters aren't meant to know why!!!
Selection favouratism: playing sentimental faves and senior blokes he likes although are failing/not up to it.
Stubborn. Myopic game plan.

Ian Dury has left the stage.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #116 –
Baggers, a couple of my own thoughts in relation to this :

- I'd suggest like all senior coaches, Voss' apprenticeship started as a player, and progressed from there : Robert Walls, then Leigh Matthews, then Worsfold for a couple of years, then Hinkley. It's not a bad group. Voss has been quite open about his close and excellent relationship with Mathews, and the influence on his career as a player and coach
- Also worth comparing his win/loss at Brisbane and Carlton, it shows the capacity to grow, improve and learn from one's mistakes, unlike Ratts for example.
- I would suggest that another sacking is not just about perception and bad optics, but rather, is a root cause of the limited success we've experienced in the last 20 years.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #117 –
What he did at Brisbane has no relevance to what he's doing with us.

Its a different group, at a different club, at a different time for football.

You cannot judge any of his work today by what he had done elsewhere unless you're looking for signs of growth and how he handled situations then vs now.

Sam docherty is the only player who's played for him at both clubs, and what he has to say about Voss would be the only words worth listening too, but even he isnt the same person he was back then.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #118 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Baggers, a couple of my own thoughts in relation to this :

- I'd suggest like all senior coaches, Voss' apprenticeship started as a player, and progressed from there : Robert Walls, then Leigh Matthews, then Worsfold for a couple of years, then Hinkley. It's not a bad group. Voss has been quite open about his close and excellent relationship with Mathews, and the influence on his career as a player and coach
- Also worth comparing his win/loss at Brisbane and Carlton, it shows the capacity to grow, improve and learn from one's mistakes, unlike Ratts for example.
- I would suggest that another sacking is not just about perception and bad optics, but rather, is a root cause of the limited success we've experienced in the last 20 years.

Before Fly at Rottingwood, before Dimma at the Tiggers, before Chris Fagan at Brisvegas, before Bevo at the Dishlickers, before Roos & Horse at the Fluffy Ducks... There were sacked coaches before eventual success. All these mentioned coaches, and others, established successful brands relatively quickly. Certainly well within four years. Mitchell took over a rabble and bunch of no names at the Dawks, and they've shot past us. After almost four years under Vossy, our brand is inconsistency within games and within years. But is that him/archaic game plan? Or development? Or list management? Or recruiting? Or culture? Or poor leadership? All this and more?

The thing that gives me a measure of confidence about our future is the astute appointment of G Wright. This bloke has a very good track record of making considered and good decisions. He's got plenty of decisions to make at PP. For six months he's been in the inner sanctum and would know much more than us about our problems and potentials and strengths. So, when it's all distilled, I trust him to do what is best for our club.

For me, our track record of coach sackings and other knee-jerk reactions is an irrelevant thing of the past. Wasted years? Possibly, but they're things of the past. We've not repeated those behaviours this year, resisting the hysterical wants of aggrieved (justified) fans and media. That's progress.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #119 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

I cant think of a club thats had as many coaches as we have in such a short period.  Going back to 99.

Parkin
Britain
Pagan
Ratten
Malthouse
Barker
Bolton
Teague
Voss
Hansen *1 game covering voss absence.

10 senior coaches in 25 years.  An average of 2.5 years each.  This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.

Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme.  Who's another basket case for most of this century?

Melbourne.  They've had 7 senior coaches.  Who else?  Freo?  4.

Who else?  Essendon and the saints equal our record.

There's a theme there.  Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.

Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history