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Topic: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide (Read 8914 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #120 –
A coach's previous record is one factor among several that need to be considered. That's obvious. What is much harder is to evaluate the weighting that one gives to such a record, taking into account several other variables.

Denis Pagan's record before Carlton was outstanding. Not just the NM seniors, but their U/19's, Essendon reserves, Yarraville. It's literally one premiership / finals appearance after another. Then one day it seems his unerring navigational sense deserted him, and he got stranded in the Bermuda Triangle for a few years, where capsizings, disappearances, lost players and other mysterious events have people to this day scratching their heads.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #121 –
Quote from: shawny – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

I cant think of a club thats had as many coaches as we have in such a short period.  Going back to 99.

Parkin
Britain
Pagan
Ratten
Malthouse
Barker
Bolton
Teague
Voss
Hansen *1 game covering voss absence.

10 senior coaches in 25 years.  An average of 2.5 years each.  This is worse, when you consider it's been 4 years of voss, it was 4 years of Bolton and 5 years of Ratten.

Some have churned through a few, but there's a theme.  Who's another basket case for most of this century?

Melbourne.  They've had 7 senior coaches.  Who else?  Freo?  4.

Who else?  Essendon and the saints equal our record.

There's a theme there.  Crap clubs, lots of off field controversy and instability (financial penalties too) and a complete and utter failure to achieve anything since the year 2000 with st.kilda getting an asterisk for a brief period of being a bridesmaid, but more often than not, these clubs miss finals.

Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history
  
so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #122 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: shawny – on


Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history
  
so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.
The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #123 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.
I've always stated we sacked the wrong people, you can't have the tail wag the dog, and handful of old boys not getting the roles they prefer isn't good enough grounds to sack a coach. Tactically I thought Teague was OK, his problem seemed to be a core group refusing to accept anything but a headline billing.

Back then I thought Teague's problem was most likely that he wasn't far enough removed from the senior players, they still viewed him as a peer. But now when I see what is happening with Voss, I fear we might have a bit of a cancel culture developing across the playing group, and the moment they are challenged by the coach they switch off.

It's quite possible that the solution is the same, keep the coach move a player or two on, but it's like a game of Jenga, you have to pick just the right one and as a decision it will probably not be related to footy.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #124 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.
The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.
Senior players as in who?

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #125 –
Quote from: Micky0 – on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on

The senior players sacked the last coach led by the Captain....the club had no choice but to move Teague on.
Senior players as in who?
Cripps and his mates complained about the game plan being confusing that was the excuse anyway, Teague was meant to have a good rapport with the youngers players but couldnt get the senior players to buy in when he went into a ultra attacking game plan. I think its an ongoing problem and Jordan Lewis identified it as being a hierarchal issue within the playing list.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #126 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

You're right, IMHO, 3 Leos.

And if you sack someone through impatience, you're more than likely to apply that impatience to his/her replacement.

Fortunately, we have a new CEO is known for consideration and due diligence. Fingers crossed that the mould of important decisions hastily made, are over.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #127 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
@cookie2

We are coach killers because we are impatient. 

You're right, IMHO, 3 Leos.

And if you sack someone through impatience, you're more than likely to apply that impatience to his/her replacement.

Fortunately, we have a new CEO is known for consideration and due diligence. Fingers crossed that the mould of important decisions hastily made, are over.

Let’s hope so and he doesn’t get chewed up in the CFC meat grinder.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #128 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: shawny – on


Maybe we just keep picking the wrong ones.  If its just the club that is the issue im guessing a lot of the young coaches in that group went on to success.

Not one did. 

We had a choice of Kingsley, McRae and Voss. We picked the biggest name in the pack despite his previous record being average at best.

Word was Pies had Voss ranked last in the process.

The rest is history
  
so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.

Just because we have sacked a lot of coaches doesnt have any bearing imo on the current situation. Every decision has to be on merit and Voss is not the man and never was.

An amazing footballer doesnt make a good coach.

We have no system still cant deliver the ball into F50 have no plan B.

Our list is lacking pieces on all lines but from a strategic perspective our coaching group led by Voss is below par and not anywhere near what the better teams have. We need a coach as well as a coaching group that will get the very best out of every player and provide systems when we get injuries the whole list knows the system and knows they role to play. We lose a few players and become a rabble.

4 years is enough time.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #129 –
Quote from: shawny – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
so you're saying the guys who are correct in sacking coaches cant hire the right one or keep choosing the wrong one?

Maybe the blokes making those decisions should get sacked instead.

Just because we have sacked a lot of coaches doesnt have any bearing imo on the current situation. Every decision has to be on merit and Voss is not the man and never was.

An amazing footballer doesnt make a good coach.

We have no system still cant deliver the ball into F50 have no plan B.

Our list is lacking pieces on all lines but from a strategic perspective our coaching group led by Voss is below par and not anywhere near what the better teams have. We need a coach as well as a coaching group that will get the very best out of every player and provide systems when we get injuries the whole list knows the system and knows they role to play. We lose a few players and become a rabble.

4 years is enough time.

You keep bringing up how we've been poor for 30+ years.

Yet now the other sacked coaches don't matter.

Either you bring history into it or you don't. Can't have it both ways.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #130 –
Shawny has a valid point. He spells out in the last paragraph what needs to happen.

If it's decided by the suits that Voss can't get us there, then get somebody else.  Another sacked coach, so what...do we just tolerate going nowhere for how long? How long is a piece of string?

BTW I wouldn't be making any calls before the season finishes but a decision must be made - the right one this time.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #131 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: shawny – on


Just because we have sacked a lot of coaches doesnt have any bearing imo on the current situation. Every decision has to be on merit and Voss is not the man and never was.

An amazing footballer doesnt make a good coach.

We have no system still cant deliver the ball into F50 have no plan B.

Our list is lacking pieces on all lines but from a strategic perspective our coaching group led by Voss is below par and not anywhere near what the better teams have. We need a coach as well as a coaching group that will get the very best out of every player and provide systems when we get injuries the whole list knows the system and knows they role to play. We lose a few players and become a rabble.

4 years is enough time.

You keep bringing up how we've been poor for 30+ years.

Yet now the other sacked coaches don't matter.

Either you bring history into it or you don't. Can't have it both ways.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."



Historically we have been crap for 3 decades and thats a fact - what is debatable is whether sacking coaches was a reason behind those results. i dont think it was but more so who we selected as to the pivotal failure was imo.

I said from day one i wasnt a fan of Voss and he was the wrong choice out of the candidates available and thats where the mistake was made not what the previous failed coaches did or didnt do nor our history in failed coaches.

Time to rip the bandaid off and hopefully this time we find the right man for the job.
 

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #132 –
Quote from: shawny – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


You keep bringing up how we've been poor for 30+ years.

Yet now the other sacked coaches don't matter.

Either you bring history into it or you don't. Can't have it both ways.

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."



Historically we have been crap for 3 decades and thats a fact - what is debatable is whether sacking coaches was a reason behind those results. i dont think it was but more so who we selected as to the pivotal failure was imo.

I said from day one i wasnt a fan of Voss and he was the wrong choice out of the candidates available and thats where the mistake was made not what the previous failed coaches did or didnt do nor our history in failed coaches.

Time to rip the bandaid off and hopefully this time we find the right man for the job.

What was 'so wrong' about Voss?

1. He wasn't a rookie coach. He'd had a go, then served a long apprenticeship after that to gain some more experience.
2. He is not too old. Plenty of experience, but not an old coot too out of touch with the modern players/game
3. He has had success as a player, a team and sustained success at that....and all from being a nothing team beforehand.
4. He is well respected, the game over and doesn't have any public 'woopsies' like other candidates.
5. He has a carlton connection, previously barracking for us and wanted the job before as well - when Ratten got it. This keeps the natives at bay.
6. He is a good media performer and doesn't embarrass himself or the club, quite the opposite. He invites others in.

As best as i can tell, the only 'negatives' is that he hasn't won us anything yet and may not be a tactical genius on matchday......and along with his mates, don't know how to pick a side.

I'm not sure there are many other coaches out there that tick as many boxes as him.

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #133 –
After 9 or 10 separate attempts, the “wrong bloke” ship has well and truly sailed. Are people seriously believing that if McRae was our coach we would be sitting 13-2 on the ladder?

Re: AFL Rd 16 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #134 –
For those worried about how we bring the ball into forward 50, we've been here before.  Brendan bokton was the one who was banging on about our midfield to forward connection and that culminated in the game with gws where we were being outrun with them having a man down.

I think this group can go all the way, and I think Voss can take them there, but we are going to need the sort of luck we didnt get last year.

One thing I will say, is that we do appear to be our worst enemy with regards to not giving ourselves our best chance at winning.  Somehow we have to get past this rope a dope situation where we look good for a quarter and then it all breaks down or vice versa.

Thats the challenge for Voss. The fact we look good is the major reason I'm in the lets not make any drastic moves both list and coach wise.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson