Carlton Supporters Club

There is IMO, a difference between a couple of dissenting voices (inevitable when you have 40+ players, assistant coaches and other support staff) and the seemingly en masse switching off,

Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us.  There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book.  It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach.  Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.

I think in Pagan's case, he had Carey and he had Archer, and that made a huge difference because it greatly diminished the opinions of the rest. But that might be normal for any club.

In all my years in and around football clubs, I've never found a club with undisputed and unequivocal unity, such claims usually come retrospectively after a flag or other similar success, but they are a mirage.

So perhaps losing some players is normal, and it is who you lose that makes all the difference.

But I'd still assert, if the top leadership and by top I mean above the coach, is stable, consistent and gives the coach unconditional support. Usually issues never grow beyond a seed. Whiteants live in rot.

Quote from: RiverRat – on Today at 11:45:55 am

I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.

Right. This would give you a unique insight. Why do you think this seems to be a problem at Carlton (I'm speaking of Malthouse and Pagan) when these successful premiership coaches were well regarded and did not appear to "lose the players" at their previous clubs ?

It seemed to me that Pagan and Malthouse had been successful, at least in part, due to well-established dictatorial imposition of inflexible game plans over multiple seasons but that they struggled to transpose those systems to Carlton - although Pagan was also adversely affected by the AFL-imposed draft penalties. The Pagan references in Kouta's book were also consistent with the atmosphere around the club at the time.

Conversely, Ratten and Teague came to the club as assistant coaches who were impressively hands-on in the skill development of individual players and both seemed to benefit from the personal relationships that they developed with the players.

Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team.
If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on Today at 02:23:15 pm

Id be dropping TDK and Charlie Curnow this week, the former has checked out and has been poor the past few weeks and Charlie hasnt kicked a goal for three weeks and been half arsed and ultra casual about his work and Id have both in the VFL team for a couple of weeks to think about their responsibilities to the team.
If they want to sulk about it they can stay in the ressies, and in Charlies case Id put him up for trade if he wouldnt change his attitude. Voss has been reticent to drop big names probably because his job is on the line and he fears losing their support but I think if we had done it earlier on we might have sent a stronger message on how the club will be operating for the rest of the season and that when he said get used to being comfortable about being uncomfortable he meant it.

He was often maligned but one of the players who left us to go to another club who I really admire was Bryce Gibbs.
He tried 'unsuccessfully' to head to Adelaide at the end of the 2016 season but  deal couldn't be done.
He didn't sook about it.
He came back in  2017 and put his head down and played some really good football, statistically one of his best seasons (43 disposals and 10 tackles in one game)
He knew he would try again for the move at the end of the year but still gave us good efforts.
Tom looks likely to go.
The least we can expect is that he plays in a similar fashion right up until the end.

Yep I wasnt a real fan of Bryce Gibbs but he did show plenty of character and played some of his better footy when he had to come back after his trade request fell through and I think that enamoured him to Carlton supporters and enhanced his reputation.
TDK on the other hand if he goes wont be remembered for anything else but being a mercenary who gave us donuts in his last games and will be copping it from all angles when he lines up for the Saints and their supporters wanting 1.7 mill a years value every time he takes the field, he is going to be under more pressure to deliver than ever before.
Id like to see us get Rowan Marshall and have the better of that whole scenario with Marshall dominating for us...

Marshall isn't as flashy but he's a reliable footballer - exactly what we need right now.  Don't know how we'd wangle it though.