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Topic: Annus horribilis (Read 2078 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #30 –
Quote from: bratblue – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Interesting looking at our own Jim Park voting.
Silvagni was in the votes most weeks he played, but there were a couple of weeks where he was right at the top of the votes for some very good jobs on dangerous key forwards.
So there's no doubt that while it lasted the experiment was working.

One of the things that often gets people a bit confused is that SOS's 'conflict of interest' over his kids was never about favouritism for his boys.
It's not hard to be professional about that type of thing.
I can even believe SOS probably did take himself out of decisions to pick the boys up.
It can sometimes even work to the detriment of the son (or daughter) if your Dad is in charge of an important aspect like list managing as they might be harder on you to deflect criticism.

No, the issue has always been how that coach or List-man deals with the other players in the side.
How would it feel if your Dad was making career ending decisions about your close friends and team-mates
I'm guessing that over the years Jack would probably have heard "You're Dad is a fKn prick" more than once.
Even as list manager for another side where he's plucking quality players from your side it would be more than uncomfortable.
I can understand that as being a situation Jack would have found difficult to deal with over his career.
It's possibly caused conflict with other players and coaches.
He may have even overheard conversations about his dad that upset him.
Was it a big factor in his decision?
I think that is a much better reason for leaving than "I'm looking for a bit of success"



If Jack ends up at St Kilda then I think you could put that argument to rest.

Not really...Because it will become an issue there as well.
How will the Saints players feel about those list decisions if Jack is well looked after....locked in for years, while their future remains uncertain.
Good luck making friends.
I think Jack to St Kilda would be a stupid and potentially destabilising move
It's also why I hope they do it. ;)

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #31 –
Quote from: bratblue – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Interesting looking at our own Jim Park voting.
Silvagni was in the votes most weeks he played, but there were a couple of weeks where he was right at the top of the votes for some very good jobs on dangerous key forwards.
So there's no doubt that while it lasted the experiment was working.

One of the things that often gets people a bit confused is that SOS's 'conflict of interest' over his kids was never about favouritism for his boys.
It's not hard to be professional about that type of thing.
I can even believe SOS probably did take himself out of decisions to pick the boys up.
It can sometimes even work to the detriment of the son (or daughter) if your Dad is in charge of an important aspect like list managing as they might be harder on you to deflect criticism.

No, the issue has always been how that coach or List-man deals with the other players in the side.
How would it feel if your Dad was making career ending decisions about your close friends and team-mates
I'm guessing that over the years Jack would probably have heard "You're Dad is a fKn prick" more than once.
Even as list manager for another side where he's plucking quality players from your side it would be more than uncomfortable.
I can understand that as being a situation Jack would have found difficult to deal with over his career.
It's possibly caused conflict with other players and coaches.
He may have even overheard conversations about his dad that upset him.
Was it a big factor in his decision?
I think that is a much better reason for leaving than "I'm looking for a bit of success"



If Jack ends up at St Kilda then I think you could put that argument to rest.
Maybe his sniffing around at Collingwood, Bulldogs and Essendon was just a smokescreen for a planned move to Saints all along?  It provides him with an excuse to counteract the obvious observation that he can only get a game at clubs when Dad oversees the playing list......

I am now seriously p***ed off at Silvagni Snr.  It can't be fun spending you whole life sucking lemons and getting more bitter every day.

We took John Elliott's name off a Grandstand at Princes Park - are we allowed to scratch names off a locker?
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #32 –
SOS is just doing his job. If you barracked for StKilda you would be happy.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
what was that again about a lack of recruiting of alternative key position players?  Would it be that potentially we'd recruit an upgrade for Jack?
You're exposing the flaw in fan commentary.

Fans want to hard decisions, they want the brutal cuts, the big trades, but only as long as it's not one of their idols getting the chop.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #34 –
On the wireless this morning, Bluebagger Raf Epstein reminded me of one of the best sporting headlines:

MELBOURNE BITTER, CARLTON UNITED!

Of course, it was the Sun’s (I think) response to Ron Barassi getting a clearance from Melbourne to become our captain-coach.  Melbourne supporters are still bitter but it was great to be on the positive side of one of the biggest names in footy changing teams … and didn’t it pay off.

I’m not comparing TDK or Jack with Ronald Dale, but there’s no doubt that there will be bitterness among Bluebaggers.  It’s the Carlton United part of the headline that is relevant to the season that’s just ended.

I think that we have been a united club since Vossy’s appointment.  I don’t think that changes to assistant coaches causes bitterness as it’s just part of footy.  However, the choice of replacements may have a bearing on how united the club is.  “Sticking fat” with Voss is uniting … unless you don’t get on with him.

Players leaving, either by choice or force, doesn’t make any club less united.  Players know that it’s the way the industry works.  Players being forced to stay against their will could promote disunity, particularly if Jacob Weitering’s comments reflect a collective view. If the Bryce Gibbs experience is any guide, the playing group doesn’t particularly care, as long as any wantaway players meet expected standards.

2025 was a shocker in terms of injuries, inconsistent performances, the President, not being in finals contention, losing to arch rivals and cellar dwellers, continual media speculation, and losing Tom and Jack.  Will we bounce back with a vengeance, and some new people?  Was 2025 the season we had to have to take the next step?  I’d like to think so 🤞
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #35 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
SOS is just doing his job. If you barracked for StKilda you would be happy.

I think there are a few who aren't.
I've just had a look at the TDK thread on one of their boards and it's a bit of a mixed bag.

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #36 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
SOS is just doing his job. If you barracked for StKilda you would be happy.

....not if he sinks the Saints by using them to get back at his old club.  He's not stumping up the cash to bring TDK in through the door......
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #37 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
SOS is just doing his job. If you barracked for StKilda you would be happy.
To cover handing out those sort of dollars you aren't going to be cutting rookies, he'll have a whole new realm of detractors once a few favourites get the chop.

We aren't the first to criticise SOS, he's doing to us now what he did to GWS, on this very forum many complained about as many of those recruits too. SOS is a DoDo disciple, so fans should not be surprised.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #38 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
SOS is just doing his job. If you barracked for StKilda you would be happy.


Im not sure about that.

Distancing myself from the SOS favourite son at Carlton argument:

1.  Only got the job as he was mates with Ross Lyon.
2.  For all his work at GWS, they only came good once he left.
3.  Brought a bunch of Ex GWS players he drafted to Carlton and they were all pretty ordinary.
4.  Is repeating the pattern of bringing across players he drafted despite paying less for them than he did on draft day.  Would Jack Carroll, Paddy Dow get a game anywhere else?  I suppose they are low risk high reward.  Liam Stocker goes ok. 
5.  Is reaching for players and paying a high price i.e.  Tom De Koning.  What has he done to earn such a price tag (recruiting free agents is good business regardless as it costs you nothing but salary cap).
6.  Is looking after his son and paying him overs for the contract. 

He isnt bad at his job, but Im not sure how chuffed I would be with him, and I think had he not been a silvagni we would likely label him a bit of a failure. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
He isnt bad at his job, but Im not sure how chuffed I would be with him, and I think had he not been a silvagni we would likely label him a bit of a failure.
I think that is a balanced assessment.

For me if you want to argue based on stats or dollars you can just apply the chance rule. Was he better than or worse than chance, is success by chance 50%, 40% or less?

The same applies to contract negotiations, in the current case is offering top dollars, dollars that most say is overs, really a success?

We've had such a poor historical emphasis on player development and drafting that pretty much anybody who isn't dead ordinary looks relatively good to us, but compared top peers, I'm not so sure. Just doing deals isn't a valid measure.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #40 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
@Lods...
The conflict was somewhat made up by liddle who got his feelings hurt when he tried to do his own recruitingnof his Richmond mates and sos shot him down.

Other than that I think it could be 'put in a good word for me' that Jack was burdened with.

Honestly, I think the biggest issue is something nobody has suggested yet.

Stephen may have voiced his thoughts on what the club should be doing and what he would do if he was still there.

I expect it to be something like Stephen saying to Jack....
- No way they should be letting go of a-grade talent like martin
- No way they should trade out Mr consistent Kennedy.
- One of the biggest holes they have could be fixed by getting Dan Houston and they let him walk to the pies.
- they've recruited too many small.forwards when they could've got....that guy.

Ultimately a lot.of what he said comes true, jack sees this and loses faith in Austin and co to build a list properly and jumps ship before it sinks further.
what was that again about a lack of recruiting of alternative key position players?  Would it be that potentially we'd recruit an upgrade for Jack?

Im not sure i understand what you are saying here. Please explain.

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: madbluboy – on
SOS is just doing his job. If you barracked for StKilda you would be happy.


Im not sure about that.

Distancing myself from the SOS favourite son at Carlton argument:

1.  Only got the job as he was mates with Ross Lyon.
2.  For all his work at GWS, they only came good once he left.
3.  Brought a bunch of Ex GWS players he drafted to Carlton and they were all pretty ordinary.
4.  Is repeating the pattern of bringing across players he drafted despite paying less for them than he did on draft day.  Would Jack Carroll, Paddy Dow get a game anywhere else?  I suppose they are low risk high reward.  Liam Stocker goes ok. 
5.  Is reaching for players and paying a high price i.e.  Tom De Koning.  What has he done to earn such a price tag (recruiting free agents is good business regardless as it costs you nothing but salary cap).
6.  Is looking after his son and paying him overs for the contract. 

He isnt bad at his job, but Im not sure how chuffed I would be with him, and I think had he not been a silvagni we would likely label him a bit of a failure.

Looking at each thing in isolation paints a bad picture. But...

1. He is one of the most innovative list managers around
2. Look at what he did with GWS by comparing how the equivalent did with GC. He was miles ahead.
3. Fleshed out the list with bargain bin GWS players that cost us nothing. Similar to what we need now, AFL capable players who may or may not turn out in the long run. Depth.
4. Work with what you know. Everytime we get a coach, we handpick a player who used to play under him and hope thats enough to get him to come across. Daisy and Mick. Gov and Teague. Fantasia and Voss. SOS just does this better than most.
5. If you are able to manage salary cap to the point you can spend big, then you can't get angry when he spends big.
6. Hasn't actually recruited him yet. Given there is no shortage of teams wanting him, perhaps if saints supporters are against that, its because of their own bias and/or lack of understanding of Jack and his recent form.

One thing you know when you get SOS is that he won't die wondering.
He will make big moves. He will make things happen.
 

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #42 –
^^ Even he concedes he cut too deep and set us back a long time.

Thing is judging on his St. Kilda return thus far you would have to put the jury out.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #43 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on


Im not sure about that.

Distancing myself from the SOS favourite son at Carlton argument:

1.  Only got the job as he was mates with Ross Lyon.
2.  For all his work at GWS, they only came good once he left.
3.  Brought a bunch of Ex GWS players he drafted to Carlton and they were all pretty ordinary.
4.  Is repeating the pattern of bringing across players he drafted despite paying less for them than he did on draft day.  Would Jack Carroll, Paddy Dow get a game anywhere else?  I suppose they are low risk high reward.  Liam Stocker goes ok. 
5.  Is reaching for players and paying a high price i.e.  Tom De Koning.  What has he done to earn such a price tag (recruiting free agents is good business regardless as it costs you nothing but salary cap).
6.  Is looking after his son and paying him overs for the contract. 

He isnt bad at his job, but Im not sure how chuffed I would be with him, and I think had he not been a silvagni we would likely label him a bit of a failure.
He will make big moves. He will make things happen.

What are all the big moves he has made at the saints apart from possibly this year?

He would do better if he removed the gigantic pole he has stuck up his ar5e. 

Re: Annus horribilis

Reply #44 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Thing is judging on his St. Kilda return thus far you would have to put the jury out.
Exactly, just doing the deals isn't a result, the deals have to pay off.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"