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List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

I posted this in a topic about forwards and how we structure up, and then got to thinking, whats the overarching goal for our list management team?

They seem to be neglecting certain types, and focussing on certain types (or so it seems). 

So I performed an exercise of listing our team in the following split.  Think backed, cracked, sacked by our own resident LL, but without doing the backing or sacking. 

Its an interesting case study.  Rather than pick a best 22 right now I think that will evolve throughout the season and pre season with strength and conditioning dictating it rather than a variance in class and ability, I prefer to divide the groups into 2:

Senior players with Bonafides:

Acres
Ainsworth
Boyd
Cerra
Cottrell
Cripps
Evans
Florent
Fogarty
Haynes
Hayward
Hewett
Kemp - 5 years in and less than 50 games.  2026 could be career defining.
Mcgovern
Mckay
Motlop
Newman
Pittonet

Saad
Walsh
Weitering
Williams
Young, L.

Chesser? - 4 years into his career and has played 36 games.  Not sure he is an AFL footballer yet, but seems to be on his way.
Reidy? - 25 years old, 5 games on his second AFL club is not a ringing endorsement of a player with bonafides.
Young, F? - half a season and 24 years old next year.  Hard to know where he fits as a footballer but he isnt a youngster.

Developing Kids who are a mix of playing ahead or on schedule, or need more time to develope:

Byrne
Cowan - he is a senior player ahead of schedule IMHO and quite important.  In my best 22.
Dean - Will play ahead of schedule.
Duffy - Irish experiment.  Would want to get a wriggle on, but all he has to do is show something.
Hollands O - he is a senior player ahead of schedule IMHO and quite important.  In my best 22.
Ison
Lord - a kid who has stamped his credentials.
Carroll - a kid who has stamped his credentials.
Moir
Monahan - Irish experiment.  Would want to get a wriggle on, but all he has to do is show something.
O'Farrell - a kid who has stamped his credentials.
O'Keefe - 21 and only played 5 games.  He looks the part, but not sure yet.
Jagga Smith
Wilson

From the youngsters who are a mix of Bonafide AFL players and not, here is the result (I chose 25 as a cut off, so 26 year olds miss out at the date of writing i.e. Cerra, Cotters, Fogarty, Boyd, Lewis Young, Ainsworth, Florent, Hayward who are all about 27 as they are not the future):

Cowan (21)----------O'Farrell(19)--------M. Carroll(20)

H.Charleson (19)----------Duffy(22)--------Dean(18)

Camporeale. L(19)--------Camporeale. B(19)--------O. Hollands(22)

Walsh (25)--------------Reidy(25)----------------Chesser(22)

Ison(19)-----------O'Keefe(21)------------Motlop (22)

Byrne(18)-----------Kemp(24)----------------Moir(21)


Int from:

Lord (21), Wilson(20), Monahan(21), Jagga (20), Evans(24), Young(24)

To this group we might add Will White(21), or Elijah Hollands(23) depending on how that final list spot falls, or a complete other option.



To me it looked as though a couple of years back, we made the decision to start building this layer as our priority, and it was the trade out of Matt Kennedy that really signalled it for me.  Hence why we went so hard for Jagga and knowing that Walker was going to be a "generational talent" (watch that car crash unfold but thats a side story). 

Most of that group listed above we have seen a taste of at AFL level.  We know that the ones I have highlighted in Bold have made a stake for their best 22 aspirations based on last years footy.  They may not stay there, but they are in the mix, and dont look out of place at AFL level.  Is Austin a bit more measured than people are giving him credit for here?

Sure that side wont win a grand final today, nor might it in future, but add son of 1AW to it, and who knows what else, and it can really start to transform.  The obvious weak points are the irish lads, but I included them as they are both 194cm lads, and sometimes you dont need the best key position, just one that will compete.

NOTE this is NOT supposed to be a current year best 22.  So if you start commenting on that, its a different idea altogether. 

discuss to your hearts content, we wont have much else to talk about on here for the next few months (hopefully).


EDITED for kruddlers pedantry.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #1 –
Any point you are trying to prove that you include Monaghan and Duffy in as a positive, loses credibility.

You'd be much better off doing what BBB does and do a future team with players penciled in and leaving gaps where we can't be confident.

From your (not best) 23, i'd have a handful of them no longer at the club this time next year.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #2 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Any point you are trying to prove that you include Monaghan and Duffy in as a positive, loses credibility.

You'd be much better off doing what BBB does and do a future team with players penciled in and leaving gaps where we can't be confident.

From your (not best) 23, i'd have a handful of them no longer at the club this time next year.

I understand you're at odds with the club's direction but maybe it's worthwhile trying to see what the plan is for the  next couple of  years.

Rather than listing the Irish boys as 'real positive',  Thry has highlighted them as an unknown weak point.

They do need to show something otherwise it's back home.
The fact the club are persisting with it at virtually no cost is an indication that they're willing to give it another year.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
Any point you are trying to prove that you include Monaghan and Duffy in as a positive, loses credibility.

You'd be much better off doing what BBB does and do a future team with players penciled in and leaving gaps where we can't be confident.

From your (not best) 23, i'd have a handful of them no longer at the club this time next year.

I understand you're at odds with the club's direction but maybe it's worthwhile trying to see what the plan is for the  next couple of  years.

Rather than listing the Irish boys as 'real positive',  Thry has highlighted them as an unknown weak point.

They do need to show something otherwise it's back home.
The fact the club are persisting with it at virtually no cost is an indication that they're willing to give it another year.

The heading was...
Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule:
I don't know of anyone, besides maybe thry, who thinks they are 'on schedule'. This is not me vs the club thing, i understand its a free hit. I'm just being honest. I think they're a bust.

Forget who is saying this, and look at the simple facts.
The club has to delist at least 3 players. Will it be all older players who leave? Usually some younger players will get booted as well.
Is it unfathomable that there would be a handful asked to move on?
Binns, Lemmey, White, Elijah, Durdin all left or got pushed this year. There's 5.

If you wanted to include irish rookies next year, you only need 3 more.
Billy Wilson, Flynn Young, Charleson, 2x Campos......could all be on the chopping block if there is no development from them this year.

This is just the reality of AFL lists and list sizes

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #4 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on


I understand you're at odds with the club's direction but maybe it's worthwhile trying to see what the plan is for the  next couple of  years.

Rather than listing the Irish boys as 'real positive',  Thry has highlighted them as an unknown weak point.

They do need to show something otherwise it's back home.
The fact the club are persisting with it at virtually no cost is an indication that they're willing to give it another year.

The heading was...
Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule:
I don't know of anyone, besides maybe thry, who thinks they are 'on schedule'. This is not me vs the club thing, i understand its a free hit. I'm just being honest. I think they're a bust.

Forget who is saying this, and look at the simple facts.
The club has to delist at least 3 players. Will it be all older players who leave? Usually some younger players will get booted as well.
Is it unfathomable that there would be a handful asked to move on?
Binns, Lemmey, White, Elijah, Durdin all left or got pushed this year. There's 5.

If you wanted to include irish rookies next year, you only need 3 more.
Billy Wilson, Flynn Young, Charleson, 2x Campos......could all be on the chopping block if there is no development from them this year.

This is just the reality of AFL lists and list sizes

after all I posted thats what you took away? 


Fixed it for you. Happy now? Its still the same delineation, and we will cut from the afl group as well as the none ready group moving forward but there is one important distinction between the two groups.  Players leaving the first group were afl ready but not good enough.  Players being axed from the second group will be because they arent going to get there with us.


No one expects the Irish to make it, but technically they're key position sized.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #5 –
Many seem to be hung up on the height (or lack there of) of our fwd line.
Brisbane Premiership Fwd Line
Charlie Cameron   180cm   Ty Gallop   194cm   Callum Ah Chee 182cm   average height = 186.5cm
Cameron Rayner   187cm   Logan Morris   191cm   Kai Lohmann   185cm      

2026 Potential Fwd Line                     
Hayward   186cm   McKay 204cm   Moir 188cm   average height =190.2cm
Evans 182cm   O'Keeffe   202cm Ainsworth   179cm
Then there is:
Jesse Motlop   180cm               
Talor Byrne 174cm               
Zac Williams 183cm               
Brodie Kemp 192cm      

I see no issue, just saying.         
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


The heading was...
Developing Kids who are playing ahead or on schedule:
I don't know of anyone, besides maybe thry, who thinks they are 'on schedule'. This is not me vs the club thing, i understand its a free hit. I'm just being honest. I think they're a bust.

Forget who is saying this, and look at the simple facts.
The club has to delist at least 3 players. Will it be all older players who leave? Usually some younger players will get booted as well.
Is it unfathomable that there would be a handful asked to move on?
Binns, Lemmey, White, Elijah, Durdin all left or got pushed this year. There's 5.

If you wanted to include irish rookies next year, you only need 3 more.
Billy Wilson, Flynn Young, Charleson, 2x Campos......could all be on the chopping block if there is no development from them this year.

This is just the reality of AFL lists and list sizes

after all I posted thats what you took away? 


Fixed it for you. Happy now? Its still the same delineation, and we will cut from the afl group as well as the none ready group moving forward but there is one important distinction between the two groups.  Players leaving the first group were afl ready but not good enough.  Players being axed from the second group will be because they arent going to get there with us.


No one expects the Irish to make it, but technically they're key position sized.


I don't know what you want me to say?
You broke down the list into 2 groups by age. You suggesting the young group is the direction that the list management team is focusing on and that we will be ok with this direction based on those players.
That's an opinion.
My opinion is that your opinion would have made a better point without shoehorning people in to back up that point.

Yes both older people and younger people will be cut. My point about that was you can't say how good the young group is when some of them will be cut next year. Same point as above, shoehorning people in hurts your statement imho.

I'm not bagging out your overall statement, I'm not asking you to put up a sacked list in just saying listing all of our young players and saying they are on schedule is a fallacy.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #7 –
I don't think they're neglecting any positions, they're just not broadcasting (for obvious reasons) that it's a rebuild.

2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #8 –
Shoehorning?

Is that like saying if a player isn't 198cm plus, and built like Tarzan then they are not a Key Position player. :D

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Shoehorning?

Is that like saying if a player isn't 198cm plus, and built like Tarzan then they are not a Key Position player. :D

Don't know, never said that.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Many seem to be hung up on the height (or lack there of) of our fwd line.
Brisbane Premiership Fwd Line
Charlie Cameron   180cm   Ty Gallop   194cm   Callum Ah Chee 182cm   average height = 186.5cm
Cameron Rayner   187cm   Logan Morris   191cm   Kai Lohmann   185cm      

2026 Potential Fwd Line                     
Hayward   186cm   McKay 204cm   Moir 188cm   average height =190.2cm
Evans 182cm   O'Keeffe   202cm Ainsworth   179cm
Then there is:
Jesse Motlop   180cm               
Talor Byrne 174cm               
Zac Williams 183cm               
Brodie Kemp 192cm      

I see no issue, just saying.         

Exactamundo, GTC old son. The Brisvegas forward line says 'mobility and multiple goal kicking options.'

If you're a traditional 'tall' key position forward in the modern game, you better have more tricks than just your height.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17
 

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #11 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
after all I posted thats what you took away? 


Fixed it for you. Happy now? Its still the same delineation, and we will cut from the afl group as well as the none ready group moving forward but there is one important distinction between the two groups.  Players leaving the first group were afl ready but not good enough.  Players being axed from the second group will be because they arent going to get there with us.


No one expects the Irish to make it, but technically they're key position sized.


I don't know what you want me to say?
You broke down the list into 2 groups by age. You suggesting the young group is the direction that the list management team is focusing on and that we will be ok with this direction based on those players.
That's an opinion.
My opinion is that your opinion would have made a better point without shoehorning people in to back up that point.


The point is the point.  The Irish lads are currently talls in that under age bracket.  They arent shoe horned in there. They might do a setanta one day, or they might be delisted but this is where our list is at today.  You dont like that, and THAT is a you problem.
Yes both older people and younger people will be cut. My point about that was you can't say how good the young group is when some of them will be cut next year. Same point as above, shoehorning people in hurts your statement imho.

I'm not bagging out your overall statement, I'm not asking you to put up a sacked list in just saying listing all of our young players and saying they are on schedule is a fallacy.

nah you're being pedantic.  You know exactly what I intended and are playing politician.  Argue a point that wasn't being made.  I divided the list into the two groups and said prioritising the second layer if you want to be pedantic, not focusing on the second.

Hence why ainsworth was recruited and we also brought in the other more mature players.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #12 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Shoehorning?

Is that like saying if a player isn't 198cm plus, and built like Tarzan then they are not a Key Position player. :D

Don't know, never said that.

Never said you did...just asking for a friend.
So I guess we won't be hearing anymore about players not being 'big'enough to play key positon.
It will always be about being able to handle the role.