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Topic: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat (Read 1323 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Lods – on
It was absolutely the right thing to do.
I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty.
And that we were looking very light on for youth.
We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.

It's sad for players like Docherty.
It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.

But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.

Doc’s preference was understandable coming from the perspective of a player in the twilight of his career.  It wasn’t informed by the truckloads of data accumulated by all list managers and probably didn’t take into consideration the availability of players with the potential to improve our list.

In other words, while clearly better informed than most supporters, Doc’s list management opinion is just that.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #31 –
Quote from: DJC – on
In other words, while clearly better informed than most supporters, Doc’s list management opinion is just that.
All personal opinions show bias, it's why clubs have committees of management.

Even so you can still find decisions being dominated by emotions and individuals, it's sometimes hard to cut the apron string. Some of this debate shows it, with welded on opinions about how we played and structured up in the past, and why we need it to continue versus change. Change is tough.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Lods – on
It was absolutely the right thing to do.
I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty.
And that we were looking very light on for youth.
We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.

It's sad for players like Docherty.
It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.

But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.


See i find these comments from you fascinating.

I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.

I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.

Now you say it was the right thing to do?
This seems very contradictory from you.

Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time.
Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.

Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker.
He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him.
Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.

So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.
 

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #33 –
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

Based on all their past successes?

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #35 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

Based on all their past successes?

I draw your attention to the fact we now have much improved list management folks at the helm. Time to let go of the past, K.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #36 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!

A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management.  Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players.  Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #37 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!

A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management.  Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players.  Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.

Let me put it to you this way.

Every club has list managers.
Every club has people who kept their job.
Does that mean every club has competent people at the helm?

We have had list managers for decades. How has our success gone over that same period.

I put to you that having a job, or even having someone with credibility overseeing them in that job, does NOT equal competent list managers, or any particular role.

.....and....even if they are deemed competent in that role. Does competent win you flags?

I don't share the blind faith that a lot seem to. Why? Because there is no evidence that they are any different to anyone else we've had and nobody else has been able to give us success.

What is it about the current crop that sets them apart from....
a) Previous people in the same role at this club
b) Their equivalents at other clubs currently.

Provide an answer to them and convince me.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #38 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on


They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!

A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management.  Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players.  Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.

Let me put it to you this way.

Every club has list managers.
Every club has people who kept their job.
Does that mean every club has competent people at the helm?

We have had list managers for decades. How has our success gone over that same period.

I put to you that having a job, or even having someone with credibility overseeing them in that job, does NOT equal competent list managers, or any particular role.

.....and....even if they are deemed competent in that role. Does competent win you flags?

I don't share the blind faith that a lot seem to. Why? Because there is no evidence that they are any different to anyone else we've had and nobody else has been able to give us success.

What is it about the current crop that sets them apart from....
a) Previous people in the same role at this club
b) Their equivalents at other clubs currently.

Provide an answer to them and convince me.

The fact of the matter is that you have a fixed opinion on list management.  Some would call it an idiosyncratic opinion, some may think you're on the money, some may think that you're partly correct and others may think that you're completely wrong.

I, for one, appreciate how difficult AFL list management is.  Do our list managers get it right all of the time? No, none of them do.  Do our list managers get it right most of the time?  Yes they do. 

Would I like to see another gun KPF on our list?  Of course I would.  Do I understand that gun KPFs are as rare as rocking horse dung?  Yes I do.  Do I think that our list managers are doing everything within their power to give Vossy the most potent forward line  possible?  Yes I do.  Do I think that we should have drafted any of the KPFs that were available at our picks.  No I don't.

Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair?  Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft.  That's what sets them apart from other list managers.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #39 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair?  Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft.  That's what sets them apart from other list managers.

We had a target of the type of players we wanted. We got them, and some future picks in the process.  That's why we got an a-.

Do those who give out those rankings no more about our team and it's needs than those on here? I doubt it, but it's sells papers.

Was that the right strategy?  Not so sure.

So it team followed a plan brilliantly. Fantastic. Not doubting that.

My question though is what makes you think our team know what they are doing better than anyone else?

Everyone has a plan.
Everyone follows that plan.
Why is this plan the right plan when all the other plans are apparently the wrong plan??

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #40 –
@DJC not sure how you are so definitive on the following:

Quote
Do I think that we should have drafted any of the KPFs that were available at our picks.  No I don't.
.

Its very early to tell whether or not this was the correct action or not.  I think that potentially looking at where our list is at, vs where its going to be at, rather than invite a train on player, we might have been better served taking Ludowyke, and not trading the way we did, however it is solely one strategy.

We wont know for quite some time if it was worthwhile. 

Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on
Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair?  Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft.  That's what sets them apart from other list managers.

We had a target of the type of players we wanted. We got them, and some future picks in the process.  That's why we got an a-.

Do those who give out those rankings no more about our team and it's needs than those on here? I doubt it, but it's sells papers.

Was that the right strategy?  Not so sure.

So it team followed a plan brilliantly. Fantastic. Not doubting that.

My question though is what makes you think our team know what they are doing better than anyone else?

Everyone has a plan.
Everyone follows that plan.
Why is this plan the right plan when all the other plans are apparently the wrong plan??



On the plans, I think you can only have a look at the strategy and plan, and say there is one, or its devoid of one.

Our guys appear to be following a script, and that script you may disagree with, but its a definite strategy either way you cut it. 

Which means they do have an idea, rather than no idea.

The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry is a saying that harks from somewhere for good reason. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #41 –
Talk about politician answers thry.

They have A plan. So they have some idea. They are following that script, so they must have some idea.

You get kidnapped, blindfolded and dumped in the middle of nowhere.
Anyone can come up with a plan on whether they should go North, east, south or west. They can follow that plan perfectly.....and go in the complete wrong direction in the process.

Having a plan, and following a plan are a good start......but its the actual plan that i'm struggling to see positives about and all that aside, the confidence in the people (regardless of the plan) that people have and where that confidence comes from.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #42 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on
It was absolutely the right thing to do.
I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty.
And that we were looking very light on for youth.
We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.

It's sad for players like Docherty.
It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.

But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.


See i find these comments from you fascinating.

I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.

I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.

Now you say it was the right thing to do?
This seems very contradictory from you.

Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time.
Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.

Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker.
He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him.
Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.

So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.

The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's
You want to draft them
I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency
Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player
If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it.
If not, go looking.

There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft.
If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case.
I've caught up now.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #43 –
I disagree Kruddler.   A politician would change the argument, cares only about how they're perceived and making their opponent look bad whilst painting themselves in a good light.

I think what you said regarding topping up and going for the flag tilt makes a lot of sense, but its one strategy.  It doesnt mean it would have worked.  It also doesn't mean it was not the right strategy.

Likewise what theyve done instead is only incorrect currently.  It could look very different it two years and be a master stroke.  Had we topped up and then we lost players as we did without experiencing success then how does it look?    would it have been a bottom out this year and a few years in the wilderness? 

We cant know the other path once you start making decisions.

Rightly or wrongly we've employed a strategy. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #44 –
That's the crux of the problem
People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete
It's a work in progress.
The recruiters may be adopting an approach that you may not agree with.
Those that are concerned with the approach are pessimistic.
Those that are happy with the direction are optimistic.

But until we see how things develop any definitive judgement is premature.
What's gone before has little bearing on the road ahead.
There's a new sheriff and deputy in town with a bit of experience
If they're not happy with the direction...it will change (and a few jobs as well)