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Topic: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat (Read 158960 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #135 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on

There is a reason the spine is called a spine in football. Its important piece that everything is built around.

We are rebuilding, but not with foundations. We are doing it with fluffy pillows, wallpaper and a change of curtains. The main structure is largely being ignored, and its only a matter of time until the cracks show through and the real issues can no longer be ignored.

Why does it have to be built that way?
Who made that rule?
It may be 'traditional' list building but who is to say its the only way

SOS built a spine but failed with the other bones the heart, muscle

I'm sure Dean, O'Farrell, O'Keefe, Smith, Ison and others don't see themselves as fluffy pillows

I'm sure all the players we've ever delisted didnt seem themselves as fluffy pillows either.

It doesn't have to be built that way, but its tried and true.
SOS didn't fail, he was cut off before he got to finish.
Austin has had longer and done less.
Tell me what players SOS inherited that could net him 3x 1st round picks via trade. Hell, a former pick 1 only got us 2.

Austin has been piggybacking off the back of the value SOS added and continues to do so.
SOS didn't have anything of value when he took over.

I'm sorry but whichever way i dissect the list, i can't find any confidence in the current regime, nothing close to what you guys seem to have in it.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #136 –
Look this is pretty pointless.
You and I aren't going to agree.
So I'll finish up here...

I'm pretty sure SOS had signalled his intention to leave anyway and they brought his departure forward.

He may not have had anything of value, but he still cut the guts out of the list and then put it back together with some average players from other clubs  (many of whom he drafted) and some poor draft choices with early picks.

He had a great first draft.
Picked up Walsh, an easy choice for pick 1
The one he does get a bit of credit for is TDK.

But enough about Silvagni
He's no friend of Carlton.

Bottom line here is you sound like you're going to have a pretty miserable summer fretting about all the ways we can drop further down the ladder.
I on the other hand will be looking forward to the first practice games to see the "New Carlton"

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #137 –
I'm not fretting about anything.
I've accepted next year will be worse than this year.
I think all you others who expect to improve are the ones that will have miserable times.
Reality check coming to many.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #138 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Look this is pretty pointless.
You and I aren't going to agree.
So I'll finish up here...

I'm pretty sure SOS had signalled his intention to leave anyway and they brought his departure forward.

He may not have had anything of value, but he still cut the guts out of the list and then put it back together with some average players from other clubs  (many of whom he drafted) and some poor draft choices with early picks.

He had a great first draft.
Picked up Walsh, an easy choice for pick 1
The one he does get a bit of credit for is TDK.

But enough about Silvagni
He's no friend of Carlton.

Bottom line here is you sound like you're going to have a pretty miserable summer fretting about all the ways we can drop further down the ladder.
I on the other hand will be looking forward to the first practice games to see the "New Carlton"
x 2
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #139 –
Looks like the Ass Stains should have done their homework on players they drafted. Oh wait...
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #140 –
Some people on this site regard KPP as less important than they have been, but a lot of them got targeted and sought after by clubs this year....Jamarra, JSOS, Charlie, the lad from Swines to Collingwood.  Large % of the trades if you ask me. If they are so "unimportant", why did club go after them?
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #141 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Some people on this site regard KPP as less important than they have been, but a lot of them got targeted and sought after by clubs this year....Jamarra, JSOS, Charlie, the lad from Swines to Collingwood.  Large % of the trades if you ask me. If they are so "unimportant", why did club go after them?

I don't think that anyone is arguing the KPPs are less important.  The point is that there's less risk involved in bringing in established KPPs through trades and free agency than through the draft.  Eight of the 50 players drafted are KPPs and eight of the 36 players traded or taken as free agents are KPPs. 

The same applies for ruckmen.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #142 –
That's the way I see things
And it's probably 'it' in a nutshell and the centre of the whole debate.
It goes to the heart of the thread title-"More than one way to skin a cat."

Of course KPP's are important.
They are the 'backbone' of any side.

But as is generally agreed...they take time.
We drafted a spine in one draft, talented kids, that still took several years to hit their peak.
The problem was that when they did we were lacking in the supportive talent.

There are two ways to do it.
Draft the talls, and develop them, in the hope that when they reach their peak there is enough supportive talent around.
Or lay a foundation of talent and then bring them in via trade and free agency, ready to go, or well on the way to reaching their full potential.

The first one may be the more traditional way.
I suspect the second option is the direction the club has taken.

It's basically what were arguing about and I don't think anyone's going to change their mind before we see what happens on-field in the next year or two.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #143 –
The club may well be taking the second option Lods, problem is the trading of those players is all going one way.... and it's not in.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #144 –
Quote from: Lods – on
That's the way I see things
And it's probably 'it' in a nutshell and the centre of the whole debate.
It goes to the heart of the thread title-"More than one way to skin a cat."

Of course KPP's are important.
They are the 'backbone' of any side.

But as is generally agreed...they take time.
We drafted a spine in one draft, talented kids, that still took several years to hit their peak.
The problem was that when they did we were lacking in the supportive talent.

There are two ways to do it.
Draft the talls, and develop them, in the hope that when they reach their peak there is enough supportive talent around.
Or lay a foundation of talent and then bring them in via trade and free agency, ready to go, or well on the way to reaching their full potential.

The first one may be the more traditional way.
I suspect the second option is the direction the club has taken.

It's basically what were arguing about and I don't think anyone's going to change their mind before we see what happens on-field in the next year or two.

And there are other options.

There's the low risk, high reward approach of bringing in untried or discarded talls as rookies through the Rookie Draft, SSP, MSD or as Cat B rookies.  Austin's had many goes at that with Luke Parks, Oscar McDonald, Dom Akuei, Sam Durdin, Hudson O'Keeffe and Matt Duffy and may finally succeed with Skull.  And that leads me to the final option; discovering/developing a KPP by changing their role.

Liam Jones is the obvious example but older folk may remember Gordon Collis who couldn't get a kick at CHF but won a Brownlow when switched to CHB.  Then there's Jack Silvagni, who went from a "third tall" forward to everyone's favourite CHB in just 12 games and won a monster contract as a result.

Skull's role has changed from ruck/forward to KPF/ruck and the signs are good so far.  With some notable exceptions like Paul Salmon, Cowboy Neale and Darren Jolly, turning ruckmen into key forwards isn't all that successful but Skull is a reliable kick for goal and that's a good start.

The tall that I would have liked us to have gone after in the draft is Louis Emmett but the Doggies got in first.  Emmett is a ruck forward but he's said to be earmarked for a KPD role at AFL level.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #145 –
I prefer specialist KP talls and not trying to cheat with hybrids who play ruck and forward, or ruckman you try and turn into KP players, we have been there with Hampson, Kreuzer etc and it rarely works. Id rather specialist forwards like Jeremy Cameron, Georgiadies, Hogan, etc and same down back with specialist Key backmen. You get handy dual purpose types like Luke Jackson who can play ruck and contribute while resting down forward but even with Jackson who is a class player its necessary to have specialist key forwards in Voss and Amiss to provide consistency because Jackson down forward wont work every time and its more of a tactical move every now and then to play him there.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #146 –
Any way you skin it, had we stuck with the same old, we thus far would have jsos and tdk on an interrupted pre season. 

Charlie is rumoured to be cooked to the point he'll never be the same again, but that will remain a rumour until otherwise. 

Can I request that number 30 stay away from key talls from now on?  The last 2 talented ones we had ended up injury prone and leaving the club.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #147 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
My contention is that we prioritised bringing in young talent in order to pass the proverbial baton from the older guard that might have won us something, in an effort to build a younger layer to the team and prevent us from bottoming out.  That group will come good about the time tassie joins (or not).

It puts our recruiting in a different perspective and thats all im aiming for.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/1457509/list-analysis-where-your-club-ranks-for-age-and-experience
Quote
RANKING FOR 2026...
Average age: 24.9 (sixth oldest)
Average games: 79.3 (fifth most experienced)
Most games: Nick Haynes (234)
Players with 100-plus games: 15
Players with less than 50 games: 22

        Average age of list at Opening Round, 2026   Ranking at OR, 2025
1   Collingwood   25.6   Oldest
2   Melbourne   25.4   Equal fifth oldest
=3   Brisbane   25.3   Second oldest
=3   Geelong   25.3   Fourth oldest
5   Sydney   25   Equal fifth oldest
6   Carlton   24.9   Eighth oldest
7   Western Bulldogs   24.8   Third oldest
8   Adelaide   24.7   Seventh oldest
9   Port Adelaide   24.4   12th oldest
=10   Fremantle   24.3   11th oldest
=10   Greater Western Sydney   24.3   13th oldest
=10   Hawthorn   24.3   10th oldest
13   St Kilda   24.2   Equal 14th oldest
=14   Gold Coast   24.1   Ninth oldest
=14   North Melbourne   24.1   18th oldest
16   Richmond   23.8   16th oldest
17   Essendon   23.6   Equal 14th oldest
18   West Coast   23.5   17th oldest

As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.

Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #148 –
Quote from: kruddler – on

As i suspected, we have actually got older, relatively speaking, in this current off-season AND we've lost a-grade talent.

Why people are fawning over our list management team i still cannot comprehend.

There's some dodgy figures there!

According to an AFL article by Cal Twomey in June 2025, the average age per team in 2025 was:

Collingwood – 28.5 years
Geelong – 26.5
Brisbane – 26.5
Carlton – 26.2
Sydney – 26.1
Western Bulldogs – 26
Melbourne – 25.9
GWS – 25.8
Hawthorn – 25.7
Adelaide – 25.6
Port Adelaide – 25.4
Gold Coast – 25.3
St Kilda – 25.2
North Melbourne – 25.1
Essendon – 24.9
West Coast – 24.8
Richmond – 24.7
Fremantle – 24.6

While the average age of the players who left us is one year older than the average age of players who have come in, I can't see how our average age could drop from 26.2 to 24.9 and from 4th oldest to 6th oldest.  Collingwood's average age dropping from 28.5 to 25.6 is unbelievable given that most of their veterans are going around again.

It seems that there are several "average age" tables with differing values.  Draftguru has our 2026 average age as 25.1 and ranked 6th in terms of age and experience.

And who exactly are the A-graders we've lost?  It's been a while since Doc was an All-Australian.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #149 –
Don't shoot the messenger, the figures are on the AFL website.

It says when the figures where calculated.

June would've been prefer the MSD.

It may or may not include rookies or players on the LTI list.

Comparing like for like, from the same person on the same site. We got older, relatively speaking. Simples.