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Topic: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat (Read 19559 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #255 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Kruddler goes to great effort to discuss list management and pulling out the old club knows more than you is just lazy and discourages people from participating.

Im not saying don't cricitise.  Its hard for me to know.  I would have selected a tall at this draft, but how do I overule them on anything when I dont know?  I watched two videos of talls.  Ludowyk, and Curin.  To me, Curtin was the better prospect, but it was a highlight reel.


And, also dont sit there saying we have blind faith in the list management team, when its difficult to have an alternative viewpoint unless you are connected in recruiting circles.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #256 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Kruddler goes to great effort to discuss list management and pulling out the old club knows more than you is just lazy and discourages people from participating.
Agree, the lack of success vindicates a lot of what Krud discusses. The club knows best is living in denial of reality.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #257 –
Seriously. ::)
Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.

But to suggest that  he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.

I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.

I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #258 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on

I flagged at the end of night 1 that we should trade up 3 spots to ensure we get 'our guy' whoever that may be. This is before we let someone else bid on ison ensuring it would allow us to get both.

Opportunity was there, it didn't happen, i can't buy that excuse.

Of course you can't buy it.
Because we 'play' draft night (and the trade period also) in our minds and on keyboards and not in the 'real' world.
And in our world everything plays out to get the result we desire.

We have no idea of the discussion between clubs and only a vague, and often biased, knowledge of list management priorities for the night and how they affect the make up of a list for the following year and in the future.

We don't see or hear the talks between clubs (other than maybe some vague report that they are discussing a player or picks).
We don't see or hear the offers that club make on the night.
We don't know the offers to trade up or down that are rejected.
We arent privy to the phone calls.
We have absolutely no idea of other clubs strategies and priorities and why they would be willing to trade up or down a couple of spots (they may have an interest in exactly the same player).

If you can think of a scenario, a list management team has probably also thought of the same scenario, but with  much greater appreciation of the pros and cons... and the obstacles.

We look at a draft profile and see "Ooh, He's tall and he has more strengths than weaknesses, lets pick him!"
We don't spend hours observing these young players actually playing, and talking to them, which sometimes might reveal something other than playing ability, that might make a club hit pause on the player or overlook them completely.

And then we ask, WTF were they thinking :D  :D

A couple of things.

I'm not saying pick player x because i've watched him more than anyone else.

I concede the club watches a lot more than i or anyone does. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.

In this instance i'm talking specifically about the player YOU raised that was flagged as a need/want by the club by those in the know. There were 4 players mentioned, we got 3 of them (albeit 2 of them were f/s academy picks) the 4th was the one in question - Emmett.

The line, "well he didn't last until our pick" is simply poor list management. If we want and/or need someone, you do what you need to do to get them.
Yes, some years its true.
100% it is not true every year for the past 10 years!
That is what i can't buy.

I've been flagging the same thing for years. Draft KPPs BEFORE you need them. We simply haven't done enough of that which has been evident by how we've been unable to cover injuries to this area in the past.
Whether or not we completely change how we 'build a team' from here is a common argument.....and thats fine. But that doesn't take into account Harry is a year closer to retirement and his replacement is still not on the list....and perhaps, like Charlie, won't be on the list until after he's already gone.

So....going back to Emmett.
IF we wanted him and rated him. like the tea leaves suggest, then we failed to deliver in getting him.
Maybe this year they 'really tried' and nobody would have it. Perhaps thats true.
What about last year?
What about the year before?
What about the year before that?

There is always 'some' excuse that people come up with to defend the list management team. Why?
There seems to be a field of Melbourne Cup winning horses paraded past us and every year we pass on them because we are looking for a unicorn instead. Someone who is elite, but 'free'. Well unicorns don't exist, so change tact.

So again, this isn't me being dirty about 'my guy', this about who we as a club rated.....and didn't get, so don't play that card.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #259 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Seriously. ::)
Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.

But to suggest that  he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.

I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.

I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.

Let me be clear.....i have my own personal opinions on who i would draft and when, and i don't think i've ever suggested that my knowledge on any given player is greater than the clubs.

That is not the point.

I always point to a 'type' that we need and i might offer a suggestion based on 'the wisdom of the masses' and phantom drafts etc on who should be available at our pick who fits that type. In this instance it was ludowycke. Last year it was one/either of the twins.

Now club preferred Emmett, so be it, i dont care, its fits the bill, do it.

So lets not fixate on the names, its never been about the names.

I've given the list management team the benefit of the doubt many a year over based on all the excuses i hear every year.
- We didn't have the picks.
- There wasn't anyone talented enough at our pick
- We had greater needs elsewhere
- This was a shallow draft for talls
- Maybe nobody wanted to trade with us
- This player was too good to pass up on.

All valid excuses in any one year. Maybe even a couple years.
You can't go the better part of a decade recycling those excuses though. There comes a time where you can (and should) make things happen. At the end of the day, we simply haven't.

I've run out of patience.
I flagged the need to get backups up to speed before Charlie and Harry and Weiters etc get to retirement/declining output age and it simply isn't happening and if that is not on the list management team to sort out, then please tell me which department is responsibile and i'll direct my arguments at them instead.

Last year i said our list got worse, and few agreed....well that and some injuries proved that it clearly did.
This year i'm saying the same and thats yet to be confirmed.....but if i'm correct, there will be enough egg on faces to feed a starving nation.....and i'd love to hear what excuses people have lined up this year.

One last thing....how many people picked either Lewis Young or Mitch McGovern in their bests teams? These 2 players were basically told to look elsewhere because they are not up to scratch and not the future. Both of these guys have been retained and both are in line for a started KP role simply due to lack of other options, and are our best backups at worst.
Does that not set off alarm bells with people?
 

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #260 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Seriously. ::)
Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.

But to suggest that  he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.

I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.

I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.


Not always is a stretch of the truth, try " never", 20-30 years of failure tells the story of a club who failed to embrace the draft from day one and whose list management strategies have been ineffective for the majority of the time.
Krud like any other supporter is vindicated in being skeptical of any List Management decisions and at least provides detail and background to his theories rather than the clubs lack of accountability hidden under a Navy Blue blur of PR and spin. How does having access to more resources give the List Management at the club any credibility when clearly the results dont back up that implication? and in fact having more access to greater resources only makes their performance even more questionable over the journey.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #261 –
That's one of the problems I see.
Folks are living in the past...and tarring the current list management, which is a work in progress, on past failures.
What we've done for the last twenty five years has little bearing on what we've done in the last two years.
If you look at our list at the start of 2024 we had the KPP's nailed down and good ruck stocks.
We set about filling the gaps.
Priorities would have turned to better ball users and a bit of pace.
But then injuries and other issues hit us hard, offers came for our KPPs, season ending injuries happened, mental health issues and player divisions fractured the list.

Have a look at the side we, as a  forum, picked at the beginning of the year.
Then look at what happened to it in terms of games played.
Then tell me if even half those things didn't occur we would have still finished 11th.
The list management hasn't been as bad as some people think.
The luck and other issues have been worse than most people realise.



Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #262 –
Folks are living in the past?
You can't judge the current crop for years.

Geez how do i get a gig where there is no possible way to be judged?

I've said previously, what had the current team done to be given a free pass by everyone?

I could save the club millions simply by drafting off phantom lists. No accountability required

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #263 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Folks are living in the past?
You can't judge the current crop for years.

Geez how do i get a gig where there is no possible way to be judged?

I've said previously, what had the current team done to be given a free pass by everyone?

I could save the club millions simply by drafting off phantom lists. No accountability required

While folks continue to talk about things over half a century old they are dwelling on the past.

And is the list management team getting a free pass with no accountability??
An experienced former list manager, one who knows what it takes to build a premiership side, has spent the last 12 months surveying the club before taking over as CEO and removing the head of football.

At this point he has not done the same with either the coach or the list management team.

Now there is a possibility that he decided there was no time to change-up list mangement given the closeness of the trade/draft period. If that's the case Austin and others will be gone early in the New Year. In that case I'll have no problem in admitting he didn't pass muster.

But as of this moment he seems to have the confidence of the CEO who knows a thing or two about list management...so I'd say either way there is certainly accountability.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #264 –
Quote from: Lods – on
That's one of the problems I see.
Folks are living in the past...and tarring the current list management, which is a work in progress, on past failures.
What we've done for the last twenty five years has little bearing on what we've done in the last two years.
If you look at our list at the start of 2024 we had the KPP's nailed down and good ruck stocks.
We set about filling the gaps.
Priorities would have turned to better ball users and a bit of pace.
But then injuries and other issues hit us hard, offers came for our KPPs, season ending injuries happened, mental health issues and player divisions fractured the list.

Have a look at the side we, as a  forum, picked at the beginning of the year.
Then look at what happened to it in terms of games played.
Then tell me if even half those things didn't occur we would have still finished 11th.
The list management hasn't been as bad as some people think.
The luck and other issues have been worse than most people realise.




Nick Austin has been at the club for six years, remind me when we started rebuilding?
You want Austin and crew judged on the last two years only?, so I would presume that initial rebuild has been declared a failure and we are starting again given you say we are a work in progress?

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #265 –
So when he started we were 16th
From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.

2020 11th
2021 13th
2022 9th
2023 5th-prelim
2024 injury hit and still finished 8th
2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th

That's terrible list management...building a prelim side.
He should be sacked.
People have short memories ::)  ::)

The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons.
So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #266 –
Most of the players from 2023 were SOS's
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #267 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Most of the players from 2023 were SOS's

Well you were wrong about one thing ....it certainly didn't stifle discussion

But in respect of the above.... people are arguing he's had more than enough time.
6 years in fact
You're arguing he hasn't had enough time and it was still SOS's list until 2024. ::)  ::)  ::)


Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #268 –
Quote from: Lods – on
So when he started we were 16th
From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.

2020 11th
2021 13th
2022 9th
2023 5th-prelim
2024 injury hit and still finished 8th
2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th

That's terrible list management...building a prelim side.
He should be sacked.
People have short memories ::)  ::)

The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons.
So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.


Stkilda made the eight in 2020 and 2023 and no one would call them successful.
Your idea of success is setting the bar very low. Supporters are being conditioned to accept mediocrity, finishing 11th would have triggered a Navy Blue Royal Commission back in the glory days but like the Saints making the eight for us is to be celebrated like a premiership now unfortunately. In fact Stkilda tried the same tactics as us this past draft/trade period when in 2019 they brought in Howard, Butler,Jones, Ryder and Hill as readymade players and as we know with limited success, triggering a fresh rebuild. A similar outcome for us wouldn't surprise...

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #269 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: Lods – on
So when he started we were 16th
From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.

2020 11th
2021 13th
2022 9th
2023 5th-prelim
2024 injury hit and still finished 8th
2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th

That's terrible list management...building a prelim side.
He should be sacked.
People have short memories ::)  ::)

The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons.
So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.


Stkilda made the eight in 2020 and 2023 and no one would call them successful.
Your idea of success is setting the bar very low. Supporters are being conditioned to accept mediocrity, finishing 11th would have triggered a Navy Blue Royal Commission back in the glory days but like the Saints making the eight for us is to be celebrated like a premiership now unfortunately. In fact Stkilda tried the same tactics as us this past draft/trade period when in 2019 they brought in Howard, Butler,Jones, Ryder and Hill as readymade players and as we know with limited success, triggering a fresh rebuild. A similar outcome for us wouldn't surprise...

'Days of yore expectations' are unrealistic in a modern 18 team competition.
Even a dinosaur like me realises that...
They're twice as hard to win, even moreso given the restrictions on clubs.
A Royal Commission would completely exonerate anyone involved in the 2025 debacle, especially the list manager.
Voss gets a pass.
Austin has little if any control over club dynamics.

The bar isn't set low.
It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.

All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year.
But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.