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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by Thryleon -We sit at arms length from the club, casual observers outside of it and dont really have skin in the game and have varying degrees of opinions and generally dont agree on what is wrong, and how to fix it.
This is of itself fine but there would be people inside the club who are of the same thinking.
What matters isnt that they arent in agreement but how they disagree.
I.e. I respect you but dont agree with your opinion or methods so I'm going to "check out".
That is a toxic behaviour. Irrespective of the method. Football clubs are attempting utopia. Keeping 45 blokes happy is a challenge of itself. Keeping 30 would be hard enough, but you can choose your hard. We dont seem to have an exodus at the blues. Guys dont walk after having enough. We've had a few opt out unless the conditions are right but more tend to opt in. If TDK is an example of that, he's got a lot of money and a club on the skids as a reason to leave. No one will blame him for that, but of the rest anyone who has left, only tuohy left of his own volition and he is scathing of the Brendan bolton era being a reason behind it and the club not valuing him at the time. However that suits him. He walked to a premiership outfit and greener pastures (pun intended).
Who else has walked out on us? It appears to be happening in a minute but half the forum want to trade everyone anyway which makes me wonder are they walking because of us or are we effectively going to enact a strategy that sees them walk?
Underneath that, I dont buy that the club loses players. We arent in good nick, and it shows on field this season. You can see it in the newbies who are bog average VFL players getting lots of games and pointing at the absences. The crystal ball cant tell you what will happen next year, but its not because players arent in. I think they're clever enough to know the condition of their teamates relative to the competition and that is explaining the lack of belief in what they're doing.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by ElwoodBlues1 -Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
Pagan let Carey and his crew run the playing group and it was unpleasant if you were on the wrong side of the King.
When Pagan came to Carlton there was no Carey to sort out the players...
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by LP -There is IMO, a difference between a couple of dissenting voices (inevitable when you have 40+ players, assistant coaches and other support staff) and the seemingly en masse switching off,
In all my years in and around football clubs, I've never found a club with undisputed and unequivocal unity, such claims usually come retrospectively after a flag or other similar success, but they are a mirage.
So perhaps losing some players is normal, and it is who you lose that makes all the difference.
But I'd still assert, if the top leadership and by top I mean above the coach, is stable, consistent and gives the coach unconditional support. Usually issues never grow beyond a seed. Whiteants live in rot.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by Professer E -26
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by PaulP -Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us. There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
There is IMO, a difference between a couple of dissenting voices (inevitable when you have 40+ players, assistant coaches and other support staff) and the seemingly en masse switching off, which, if you follow this theory (not sure that I do), seem to be endemic at our club. And not just as a one off. Over and over again.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by Professer E -Kouta writes about it in detail in his book. It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach. Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by PaulP -I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.
Right. This would give you a unique insight. Why do you think this seems to be a problem at Carlton (I'm speaking of Malthouse and Pagan) when these successful premiership coaches were well regarded and did not appear to "lose the players" at their previous clubs ?
If you start with one theory popularized by supporters, i.e we keep picking the wrong bloke, which then has a downstream effect where the coach will lose the players, then the choice of coach is pot luck, and our problems are very deep, because the ones doing the selecting have no clue, and after a certain honeymoon period the players cease to care. Big if true.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by shawny -Many including me make up 'likely' scenarios in our head (mostly ones that suit what we want to believe) whereby the true reality is we have no fking clue about the inside workings, players fitness levels, players playing injured, coach player connection etc etc. We just have our opinion on what the issues are run with it like its a fact.
The only fact is the scoreboard and on that basis alone most aspects have failed including the bulk of the playing list, the senior coach and all his assistants - all failures. FULL STOP. The only area of the club succeeding is the financial side and that will be under pressure as a lot of that was built off high probability of on-field future success.
All i hope for is a real strong statement at seasons end to make ballsy change to all areas without worrying about the names of the changes. We need to earn our stripes again by taking no prisoners and showing all the club comes first from our best player to our last player on the list because as it stands we have no respect in this competition which is saddest part for what was such a powerful proud successful club.
I just dont buy into small changes will do it and i dont care about 'how that has gone for us in the past mantra' - the group is miles off it and without considerable improvement in the off season we will again be all bark no bite.
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane
Last post by ElwoodBlues1 -Carlton players must be a very unique breed. Malthouse did not seem to lose the players at Footscray, or West Coast, or Collingwood. Then suddenly he gets to Carlton.....
Pagan didn't seem to lose the players throughout his junior coaching days (fantastic record), didn't seem to lose the players at North. Then suddenly he comes to Carlton.......
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls.
Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.