Carlton Supporters Club

And the winner is.....?

Them....but not by much

Still a way to go but at least we fought it out to the end.

1st time in forever we've kicked 100 and lost.

We look like we had a little forum glitch for a minute or two but we seem to be back on track now.
Charlie's back in town.
But the Gov is a worry

Paid the price for inconsistency tonight. When we try we go ok. We just spend too much time not trying hard enough.

What the F did we just watch.

What universe does Carlton kick 100, mostly in a total of 35 min of decent footy.............and still lose!

This attacking game plan will take a little while I suppose but wish it went well for longer than 35 min when it did work.

We look like we had a little forum glitch for a minute or two but we seem to be back on track now.
Charlie's back in town.
But the Gov is a worry

He really is. Ok the delivery to the forward line isn’t great but his marking efforts were appalling tonight.
(Gov that is)

We look like we had a little forum glitch for a minute or two but we seem to be back on track now.
Charlie's back in town.
But the Gov is a worry

Lods I think we may have a little issue on the server - the tab in my browser is showing the buffering icon and has been on and off all day. No probs on any other site.

I'm glad I got to experience the unbridled pleasure that comes from watching our players express themselves and play to their strengths, but for me at least, it doesn't look any different from any other honourable loss we've had this season.

Good effort by all. So what's the update - 5 from 44 ?

We look like we had a little forum glitch for a minute or two but we seem to be back on track now.
Charlie's back in town.
But the Gov is a worry

Gov will be a good player for us for many years but right now he needs a rest in the twos. JSOS instead of Gov and we might've won.

He really is. Ok the delivery to the forward line isn’t great but his marking efforts were appalling tonight.

Richo was commenting that he was going a fraction too early.

Paid the price for inconsistency tonight. When we try we go ok. We just spend too much time not trying hard enough.

We just can't afford quarters like the first.
They really could have put the game away then if they'd got value for possession.

And then the lapse at the end of the third and the poor start in the last meant we had to regain our momentum.
But there are some really good signs there.

A lot to like tonight.
Shut the media up from the usual "Carlton are terrible, shouldn't be on tv...."
MK gets free for a high tackle earlier in that last play, and we could have snatched it.
Charlie clearly BOG
Daisy kicks a beauty on his 250th.

I'm glad I got to experience the unbridled pleasure that comes from watching our players express themselves and play to their strengths, but for me at least, it doesn't look any different from any other honourable loss we've had this season.

Good effort by all. So what's the update - 5 from 44 ?

He said, caustically.

Really we played terrible for about half the game in total.

Positive is we kept fighting and scored heavily when on top.

Simpson I think has upped his game in the last fortnight. If he keeps that up you would want him to play on.

I'm glad I got to experience the unbridled pleasure that comes from watching our players express themselves and play to their strengths, but for me at least, it doesn't look any different from any other honourable loss we've had this season.

Good effort by all. So what's the update - 5 from 44 ?

5 from 45!

Did kick 100. Looks better than the $hit we were playing before even in fits and starts. Take a while to get of the recent $hit we put up with for years, and get used to a new plan. At least we can score.

Lods I think we may have a little issue on the server - the tab in my browser is showing the buffering icon and has been on and off all day. No probs on any other site.

We'll see how we go.
Hopefully we can stay functioning tonight but we might need Spanner to have a look.

I'm glad I got to experience the unbridled pleasure that comes from watching our players express themselves and play to their strengths, but for me at least, it doesn't look any different from any other honourable loss we've had this season.

Good effort by all. So what's the update - 5 from 44 ?

We had another reset.

1 from 2

1st time in forever we've kicked 100 and lost.

You obviously see a glass half full with our club. This is the last game we will win this season. So let’s just hand over pick one to the Crows in the draft.

A lot to like tonight.
Shut the media up from the usual "Carlton are terrible, shouldn't be on tv...."
MK gets free for a high tackle earlier in that last play, and we could have snatched it.
Charlie clearly BOG
Daisy kicks a beauty on his 250th.

To be fair I would probably give BOG to Dunkley.....41 possies, 10 tackles and had Cripps for most of the night at stoppages, thats probably the game with Cripps
only getting 22 possies..

In reality, we only led for about 10% of the game.

We only put in for about 50% of the game.

If we can improve our effort, we're back to where we were early on this year....able to mix it with the best.

We just cannot afford to let our effort lapse....regardless of who our coach is.

Meanwhile, Finch is some chance of a double hundred.

EDIT: Wish i hadn't said that. Have to be satisfied with 153.

5 from 45!

Did kick 100. Looks better than the $hit we were playing before even in fits and starts. Take a while to get of the recent $hit we put up with for years, and get used to a new plan. At least we can score.

Ah yes - nice deflection.

He said, caustically.

Sour grapes does that.

We had another reset.

1 from 2

Oh I see. I'll have to brush up on the new maths.

According to Teague, there hasn't been any real changes, just some tinkering.

Ah yes - nice deflection.

It's much better with a more attacking plan but it wil take time because of the $hit from the other bloke. What is it, a win against a side in the top 5 and a narrow lose and managing 100.

You obviously see a glass half full with our club. This is the last game we will win this season. So let’s just hand over pick one to the Crows in the draft.

Um, we didn’t win this game.
There’s still hope, after the bye it’s freo, Melbourne, Swans and Suns.
Play like we did in the third and the last 8 minutes for a full game and we’ll will 2 of those.
But bring the first quarter performance against freo and we’ll have a repeat of last year.
Then we’ve got the chance to stick it to Adelaide.

Terrible, terrible lapse after we kicked our last goal.

With 6-6-6 if you need one more goal you CANNOT let the other team bottle it up. Keep it alive at all costs. A second ball up spells death and that’s exactly what happened.

Having said that, we didn’t deserve to win. Never seen Krooz so comprehensively thrashed.

Terrible, terrible lapse after we kicked our last goal.

With 6-6-6 if you need one more goal you CANNOT let the other team bottle it up. Keep it alive at all costs. A second ball up spells death and that’s exactly what happened.

Having said that, we didn’t deserve to win. Never seen Krooz so comprehensively thrashed.

Thought Kreuzer did ok in the hitouts and was one of our best...English hurt us up forward with two goals and is a good colt but MK was
good IMO.

Well....he hasn't left the site, only to return under a different moniker.....yet.
;)


But yes, its becoming very tiresome, and we are only 2 games in.

Well....he hasn't left the site, only to return under a different moniker.....yet.
;)


But yes, its becoming very tiresome, and we are only 2 games in.

So now, lapses in concentration, basic skill errors and honorable losses are ok ?

The Dogs are average, and without Libba for a fair whack of the game.

It's much better with a more attacking plan but it wil take time because of the $hit from the other bloke. What is it, a win against a side in the top 5 and a narrow lose and managing 100.

Nice edit Lod's  :)

So now, lapses in concentration, basic skill errors and honorable losses are ok ?

The Dogs are average, and without Libba for a fair whack of the game.

Paul, I think the comeback was something we didnt experience too often under BB, Dogs earned the win but we didnt give up and throw the towel in.
Teague has brought belief and self confidence back to some of our players who were down ie Charlie.

So now, lapses in concentration, basic skill errors and honorable losses are ok ?

Not at all!
They're being called out.

Terrible, terrible lapse after we kicked our last goal.

With 6-6-6 if you need one more goal you CANNOT let the other team bottle it up. Keep it alive at all costs. A second ball up spells death and that’s exactly what happened.

Having said that, we didn’t deserve to win. Never seen Krooz so comprehensively thrashed.

Dunno about that - hit outs were 53-33 to us.

Our midfield went missing for extended periods though and didn’t complement his ruck work very well.

So now, lapses in concentration, basic skill errors and honorable losses are ok ?

The Dogs are average, and without Libba for a fair whack of the game.

We all know your stance on things.

But perhaps you should realise what other peoples stances are if you want to pick fights.

I was never pro-sacking of Bolton.
I realised after the Bombers game that 'something' had to happen. I actually said pre-sacking, that it was the biggest ground swell i've seen since the gold coast game (ala Rattens sacking). I had the same stance then. I didn't think sacking Ratten would fix anything, but 'something' had to happen and i understood it.

So with that out of the way....

I always believed that while we gave effort (under Bolton) that we were right on the cusp of turning things around for good. We've had so many close losses that its only a matter of time until one (or more) of those close games gets turned into a win.....and more wins.

So while i don't believe Bolton was the problem. I don't believe Teague is necessarily the answer. I do believe in the players we have and i do believe its only a matter of time until things turn around for good. Potentially as early as this year.

So why i don't celebrate a loss, i am buoyed by the fact that we showed we had a pair and gave effort....even though things didn't go our way early. We did NOT spit the dummy. We sucked it up and got on with it like big boys should.

The way Casboult and Jones have gone maybe we should put all out struggling forwards in defence...lol.

McGovern is the most over rated and over paid player on our list.   Didn't even do his usual five minutes this game, was invisible all night.

The way Casboult and Jones have gone maybe we should put all out struggling forwards in defence...lol.

Old saying Jim was " mugs to the backline"...

Old saying Jim was " mugs to the backline"...

Haha, yes.....and it's working.

It's a bit late in the night to be editing and deleting posts.

By all means attack the posts but let's do it without the personal stuff.

We've had a change.
Some people regarded it as necessary.
Some folks are really pissed.

We're probably going to have a couple of weeks while we come to terms with the result of that change.
Some will see significant differences, others will see more of the same...and we'll give greater emphasis to each of those things depending on how we feel about the decision.

I still see the skill errors, lapses and the fact we didn't win...but it was an 'honorable loss' and we'll be praised for it whether we like that term or not.
On the positive side we have Charlie returning to form and a close result with Cripps pretty well restrained for most of the night...that's a positive.

McGovern is the most over rated and over paid player on our list.   Didn't even do his usual five minutes this game, was invisible all night.

I don’t like making excuses for players, but he did miss a large portion of pre-season which is impacting his workrate, which obviously needs to improve.

If he can start working harder he’ll be a great player

Old saying Jim was " mugs to the backline"...

Our new back six?  :))

(https://media.4rgos.it/i/Argos/8012739_R_Z001A?w=750&h=440&qlt=70)

McGovern is the most over rated and over paid player on our list.   Didn't even do his usual five minutes this game, was invisible all night.

Dont think the three specialist forwards works, I'd rather a workhorse like Jack play that 3rd tall forward role, problem with McGovern is that he is a good mark and kick but doesnt do anything else IMO.
Doesnt apply pressure and sometimes when you are having an off night you can make up for it by doing some grunt work like chasing, tackling, blocking and helping your team-mates out.
No Walker, Jenkins and Eddie means life is a lot harder too, and we dont have that delivery that the Crows have so he has to work harder IMO and create more rather than waiting for others to
get him the ball.

I don’t like making excuses for players, but he did miss a large portion of pre-season which is impacting his workrate, which obviously needs to improve.

If he can start working harder he’ll be a great player

I would think 13 weeks of matches is enough to build up some basic match fitness

Haha, yes.....and it's working.

Jones sucess I could understand as he is a real athlete but the Bolt has surprised me with his groundwork and composure....has become a Cale Hooker type.

Jones sucess I could understand as he is a real athlete but the Bolt has surprised me with his groundwork and composure....has become a Cale Hooker type.

He isn't totally lacking in speed either which was one of the concerns expressed.

Our new back six?  :))

(https://media.4rgos.it/i/Argos/8012739_R_Z001A?w=750&h=440&qlt=70)

Thats not bad Cookie ;D, we had less mugs than usual tonight..

Our new back six?  :))

(https://media.4rgos.it/i/Argos/8012739_R_Z001A?w=750&h=440&qlt=70)

Nice work!!!

Jones sucess I could understand as he is a real athlete but the Bolt has surprised me with his groundwork and composure....has become a Cale Hooker type.

I think we need to find a new role for Jones that uses his mobility and athleticism. I like Levi in the backline so far - he seems to be very cool under pressure.

Dont think the three specialist forwards works, I'd rather a workhorse like Jack play that 3rd tall forward role, problem with McGovern is that he is a good mark and kick but doesnt do anything else IMO.

I agree to a point.

But....

You don't need all 3 to win you the game.

Look at the spread of goalkickers between them.

After tonights 7 from Charlie and 1 each from harry and gov
Season total...
Harry - 19 goals. (13 games)
Charlie 18 goals. (10 games)
Gov - 16 goals. (11 games)

Who do you drop? You can't.
So...
Who do you send your best defender too?

Ignore one of them at your own peril.

They don't all work together, but together we'll get at least one of them to work.

I would think 13 weeks of matches is enough to build up some basic match fitness

He has missed a couple through injury too don't forget.

I think we need to find a new role for Jones that uses his mobility and athleticism. I like Levi in the backline so far - he seems to be very cool under pressure.

Or Cas, Jones and Weitering play in the same backline to release Plowman to play on the wing... in the vfl.

Jones sucess I could understand as he is a real athlete but the Bolt has surprised me with his groundwork and composure....has become a Cale Hooker type.

Suppose Casboult is appreciating not having 3 players on him will ridiculously horrible delivery. found he could actually play.

Someone will get the boot for Jones eventually, Plowman might be in trouble, unless we get adventurous and play him on a wing where he could run amok and play havoc with the opposition physically.

I think we need to find a new role for Jones that uses his mobility and athleticism. I like Levi in the backline so far - he seems to be very cool under pressure.

Agree...I would leave the Weitering/Casboult KP duo as is and look to use Jones in a more positive role where he can be a shock trooper.
If either of the other two are having a bad match you can always move Jones back to cover. Hope he is ok and comes back as good as he was,
he must have been really badly concussed and wonder if we will see him in the helmet for a while.
Zurhaar got him good  >:( and was lucky he didnt get some time off too given the extent of Jones time away from the game.

I would think 13 weeks of matches is enough to build up some basic match fitness

Some do but often you are playing catch up with a proper base. And up forward isn't the best place to play in that situation, especially in our forward line.

Or Cas, Jones and Weitering play in the same backline to release Plowman to play on the wing... in the vfl.

Yes, maybe Plowman would be the one under threat.

Suppose Casboult is appreciating not having 3 players on him will ridiculously horrible delivery. found he could actually play.

Someone will get the boot for Jones eventually, Plowman might be in trouble, unless we get adventurous and play him on a wing where he could run amok and play havoc with the opposition physically.

Olivia Newton John gets more physical than Plowman

Agree...I would leave the Weitering/Casboult KP duo as is and look to use Jones in a more positive role where he can be a shock trooper.
If either of the other two are having a bad match you can always move Jones back to cover. Hope he is ok and comes back as good as he was,
he must have been really badly concussed and wonder if we will see him in the helmet for a while.
Zurhaar got him good  >:(and was lucky he didnt get some time off too given the extent of Jones time away from the game.

It was unlucky for Jones as he must've been close to AA.

I think McGovern needs a break to get some touch.
His timing was all over the place early tonight.
It left him with no confidence as the game progressed.

I think McGovern needs a break to get some touch.
His timing was all over the place early tonight.
It left him with no confidence as the game progressed.

Its only his 2nd game back.

Personally, i'd get his eyes tested.

I know Sticks Kernahan was no good at night because he couldn't see the ball with the lights. Maybe Gov has the same problem?

If McGovern doesn't play Charlie doesn't kick 7.

The 3 talls stretch defences. We just need quality small pressure forwards.

Its only his 2nd game back.

Personally, i'd get his eyes tested.

I know Sticks Kernahan was no good at night because he couldn't see the ball with the lights. Maybe Gov has the same problem?

Funnily enough, the thought actually crossed my mind tonight also when he was constantly misjudging the ball.
Does he have a vision issue?
His accuracy has been good, best of the forwards.
His impact though usually comes in bursts.
What else is he giving us at the moment ?

If McGovern doesn't play Charlie doesn't kick 7.

The 3 talls stretch defences. We just need quality small pressure forwards.

If he's just a decoy Kerr could fill that role...
Jones could too, and it may be better to ease him back through that role than taking a key role in defence with Casboult doing well down there.
I know Jones has been tried without success before but I suspect he'd be a better forward now having played on some of the best forwards.

If McGovern doesn't play Charlie doesn't kick 7.

The 3 talls stretch defences. We just need quality small pressure forwards.

Ain't that the glaringly obvious missing piece of the forward line. Not sure where we get a small forward from.

If he's just a decoy Kerr could fill that role...
Jones could too, and it may be better to ease him back through that role than taking a key role in defence with Casboult doing well down there.
I know Jones has been tried without success before but I suspect he'd be a better forward now having played on some of the best forwards.

He's better than a decoy, and he went on ball once or twice to change it up and get some bigger bodies there.

Let's face it, he has a role.

Funnily enough, the thought actually crossed my mind tonight also when he was constantly misjudging the ball.
Does he have a vision issue?
His accuracy has been good, best of the forwards.
His impact though usually comes in bursts.
What else is he giving us at the moment ?

Harry's having as many issues as Gov.

Don't think it's possible for them to all play well at once unless we really pumped the opposition but providing we get the ball into the F50 as we should it should make it difficult for the opposition with all 3. With that though we must bring F50 pressure. We could try Kerr though instead for a while.

McGovern is a very accurate kick which is a good feature of his game but needs to do more to justify that big contract IMO but I guess you could argue
the gameplan and brand we have played isnt conducive to a lead up forward and he has probably made position many times but we couldnt hit him up.

I’m not as optimistic as others. More of the same imo. Close loss, good footy in patches, but if you take the blue glasses off never really deserved the win.... play that way against better opposition and won’t be an honourable loss.

McGovern is a overrated one trick pony. With Harry and Charlie and Kerr who can’t get a game on our list, this trade never made sense to me at the time and certainly doesn’t now!

Our midfield group is slaughtered when Cripps is restrained. Unless he plays a blinder we won’t win.  I mean how are we expected to compete with one A grader in Cripps, a 12 gamer in Walsh, and then half a dozen skinny one way running kids who can’t defend and who find it impossible to play 4 quarters of solid football.

Not going to happen. Our improvement can only come once we get at least 3 seasoned ready made mids. Ive never been surer if it doesn’t happen in this years trade period strap yourself in folks as more spoons are coming our way.

One positive from the game is that we may get a reprieve from those calling for Charlie to (a) play in the midfield, or (b) spend time in the NBs  :)

Yes another ‘honourable’ loss but Christ a lot of what we watched live was damn exciting! It was enjoyable being at the footy again.  Of course there was times that were shake of head stuff but then there was just joyous brilliance and NOT a Crippa in sight! 

Had some moments in the second I thought god we are so dumb but then they found their way to right the dumb and off we went again.

I knew that 3 min lapse at the end of the 3rd would bite us but was happy to see real fight.  Umpiring pissed me right off too, we don’t want to notice you umps, stop making us notice you for the wrong reasons ????

He's better than a decoy, and he went on ball once or twice to change it up and get some bigger bodies there.

Let's face it, he has a role.

Is it a role that’s worth $700k a year.

Yes another ‘honourable’ loss but Christ a lot of what we watched live was damn exciting! It was enjoyable being at the footy again.  Of course there was times that were shake of head stuff but then there was just joyous brilliance and NOT a Crippa in sight! 

Had some moments in the second I thought god we are so dumb but then they found their way to right the dumb and off we went again.

I knew that 3 min lapse at the end of the 3rd would bite us but was happy to see real fight.  Umpiring pissed me right off too, we don’t want to notice you umps, stop making us notice you for the wrong reasons ????

Great summary of the night!!! Agreed!  Exactly how I felt. At least it’s fun again.  Love u Charlie-fides-lenko-ola

Is it a role that’s worth $700k a year.

He is a player with upside thats best is in front of him, and he came to a bottom side.
With all of that comes a hefty price tag.

We have to pay it to someone, might as well be to players to jump ship to us as we know the ones we have haven't earned it.

Not sure if it has already been mentioned. But, anyone else notice the weird zone we were playing for the 1st q.  Seemed to be one of the reasons they were running riot early. Our lads were guarding space, badly, and they were getting the easy overlap every time

Is it a role that’s worth $700k a year.

Would you rather we keep recruiting Alex fasolo, Aaron Muller, Darcy lang and Billie smedts types?

On the flipside how does everyone know hes on 700k a year?

That's a lot of money for a bloke squeezed out of adelaide due to cap pressure.

Just got home from the game, what a rollercoaster, plenty of positives (C Curnow, Walsh, Kreuzer after 1/4 time, Setterfield, Murphy), but still too many negatives (McGovern, McKay, too many small mids who can't find the ball and have very little impact on the game)

Just got home from the game, what a rollercoaster, plenty of positives (C Curnow, Walsh, Kreuzer after 1/4 time, Setterfield, Murphy), but still too many negatives (McGovern, McKay, too many small mids who can't find the ball and have very little impact on the game)

Murphy?
Wow

Ain't that the glaringly obvious missing piece of the forward line. Not sure where we get a small forward from.

In the immediate term? DeLuca..

haven't watched any of it yet but two things spring to mind:

1. we played (all up) two good quarters, but two terrible ones too; and

2. Blokes like Dow, LOB, maybe even SPS shouldn't be playing 1s presently.

haven't watched any of it yet but two things spring to mind:

1. we played (all up) two good quarters, but two terrible ones too; and

2. Blokes like Dow, LOB, maybe even SPS shouldn't be playing 1s presently.

....and not haven't watched any of it, what leads you to single them out???

In the immediate term? DeLuca..

Cuningham is our best fit for a small forward.

His kicking is elite.
His attack on the footy is great.
He gets to the drop of the ball.

Its just a shame we need him a bit further up the ground too.

He has really come on this year and its a shame we don't have 2 of him.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/2019-06-15/full-postmatch-blues

Briefly elaborates on tagging / not tagging.

Certainly no arguments with Teague's plan for players to "play to their strengths".  Small problem with that some players think they're millionaires.

Harry's strength surfaces when the ball is delivered laces out. SPS's strength is a nice clean one-touch possession in space. Ain't gonna happen. His first half was deplorable. Sparked up in the second to his credit.

He wasn't Pat Malone in that first half. I glanced at the stats and more than half a dozen of our players touched the ball 8 times or less.

Interesting that some are defending Kruezer with stats. "Hitouts to advantage"? I love stats. Blind Freddie could see that they were waltzing it out of the centre with ease. Yeah, maybe he got a hand to it and the ball sort of went forward a bit so let's chalk that down as a "hitout to advantage" despite the fact that the follow up play was a two possession romp into an open goal  ::)

I can see that he's definitely better at boundary throw ins but also worrying is a recurring theme that opposition ruckman are escaping forward to hurt us with 2-3 goals.

Weird game. 2 x 7 goal turnarounds, 1 x 5 goal turnaround, which fell just short. We kicked more goals in the last qtr than our terrific 3rd qtr, all after the 20 min mark.

Next game could be tough. Freo in Perth.

Kreuzer is the least of our problems.  A swag of midfielders who don't get it enough,  don't tackle,  apply little defensive pressure when we don't have the pill,  and have dreadful disposal and ball use - that's our biggest issue.

A couple of smaller ground level goal kickers would nice too.

I don’t know, in the last quarter in particular, watching SPS move, he is a smart player. I thought at one stage, I feel comfortable with the ball in his hands when it’s tight.

Hopefully another preseason for he and Fish will give them more strength.

The main thing I’m really over seeing is our guys just getting pushed past when they’re trying to tackle.  I think I yelled out more ‘bring him to ground!’ Than anything else last night. Very frustrating.

Be careful for yelling out,  you'll be evicted and banned by Oberfuhrer G-Mac.

Kreuzer is the least of our problems.  A swag of midfielders who don't get it enough,  don't tackle,  apply little defensive pressure when we don't have the pill,  and have dreadful disposal and ball use - that's our biggest issue.
......................

...............................

The main thing I’m really over seeing is our guys just getting pushed past when they’re trying to tackle.  I think I yelled out more ‘bring him to ground!’ Than anything else last night. Very frustrating.

At this point, we are simply not a stripping team. If we don't get first use, we simply don't have size, smarts, coaching, whatever it is, to force a turnover and regain possession. If the other mob get first use, especially out of the middle, they just move it effortlessly for a shot on goal. We are far too reliant on Cripps and first touch.

A comparison between yesterday's game and the R5 clash is illustrative in my view.

....and not haven't watched any of it, what leads you to single them out???

Have a look at the midfield stats, their mids slaughtered us, too many players who dont pick up their man or chase when
Cripps doesnt make it easy for them,

Dow had 9 for the game,  SPS had 18(mainly cheapies late)...LOB had 17
All the Dogs big name ball winners had plenty of it and I dont know who was playing on Lipinski but the Dogs kid had 27 and kicked 2 goals, he isnt even a regular, one of our lazy players
just left him run around on his own.

We got lucky that the Dogs dont have a forward line and have to scrounge for goals and Charlie had a day out but some of those high end midfield draft picks
are lucky we have nothing in the twos...Setterfield was good and Walsh helped us back in the game so they get a pass.

Fisher and Dow really worry me.   It's the continuing lack of meaning impact.  Fisher hasn't been the same since Howe broke his leg and Dow...well,  another game where his raw stats are very poor and his disposal remains average at best.   And SOS has stated he would have taken him at one.   I remain unconvinced why.

We need solid,  mature mids badly because these kids aren't giving enough highlights,  let alone any consistency. I'd take solid and reliable over flash any day.

At this point, we are simply not a stripping team. If we don't get first use, we simply don't have size, smarts, coaching, whatever it is, to force a turnover and regain possession. If the other mob get first use, especially out of the middle, they just move it effortlessly for a shot on goal. We are far too reliant on Cripps and first touch.

Yes, and it’s gonna take more than one pre-season to turn this around.

Similarly with decision-making with ball in hand. My frustration from last night was the number of times we made the wrong binary decision - when we needed to simply get the ball free/forward/over the top we hung on to it and were tackled. Momentum killed when a teammate was in the clear only metres away.

When we needed to hang on to it (no real options close by, nothing opening up down the field) we panicked and coughed it up. So goddam frustrating.

Good luck Mr T.

Yeah watching them think last night was annoying.  I k ow that sounds weird but watching them weigh up options ultimately lead to them losing possession!

The turnaround to watch live was amazing and exciting.  Now we need a coach that can harness that part and we’ll be amazing.

The one player who consistently disappoints me is Petrevski Seton. 

Lots of class, but 4 quarter endeavour for his talent far below what it should be. 

Lackadaisical

The one player who consistently disappoints me is Petrevski Seton. 

Lots of class, but 4 quarter endeavour for his talent far below what it should be. 

Lackadaisical

I disagree. Watching live he does try and get in there and when he does get it he usually does something great with it.  He looks taller than I thought too, hopefully can add a bit of strength.

Fish looks good when he’s open.  A few times he disappointed when he wasn’t watching the ball instead was watching his opponent. I feel like he’s been taught that. Hopefully he unlearns it quickly!

Our third quarter where we were on top was all Matthew kreuzer.

He took English to town for a quarter after having lowered his colours in the first half.

English lifted in the last.

That was all she wrote.

Our forwards were as bad at locking it in for most of the game as they have been all season aside from that third quarter.

That last run of goals came in junk time after the Bulldogs went 5 goals up.  They hit 15 goals 13 and put the queue in the rack a little too early.

Once we got a run on we stormed back into the game and they rallied and went into a mark kick scenario to kill the momentum and the clock.

People searching for positives will find them.  People searching for negatives will find them.

That wasnt a rmgame we looked like winning for most of it and felt like the north game with one difference.

The Bulldogs are crap and actually turned it over in the third quarter which contributed to us getting back into it.  Typified by caleb Daniel's turnover.


I've seen a trend emerge over the last fortnight.   We are becoming downhill skiers who run harder offensively than they do defensively (backed up by the afl app).  That can be a product of the plan.  It depends on whether or not it requires teams to work harder to attack than defend.  The Bulldogs have the opposite statistic.

Fisher and Dow really worry me.   It's the continuing lack of meaning impact.  Fisher hasn't been the same since Howe broke his leg and Dow...well,  another game where his raw stats are very poor and his disposal remains average at best.   And SOS has stated he would have taken him at one.   I remain unconvinced why.

We need solid,  mature mids badly because these kids aren't giving enough highlights,  let alone any consistency. I'd take solid and reliable over flash any day.

We've been saying this for a long time and added to that a couple of quick small forwards who can lock the ball in fwd 50, crumb, and snap goals. We'd look a lot better and without them any coach will struggle.

Work in progress turning the good ship PP onto a new course.

This loss may actually help in disciplining the side to learn to 'clamp' sides when they have the ascendancy. Also quietens the fairy story fans.

What the boys have learned is that they have some serious offensive threats and can score quickly and constantly - two weeks in a row of strong scoring in burst. Just a process now to harness and channel that for more consistency.

I saw far more positives in that game, when viewed as an education in offensive skills/learning, than the few obvious negatives. The strong comebacks were especially positive considering Cripps had little influence.

To me the one glaring negative is, and we all know this, too many runts in the midfield. Just need another big body or two in there to support Cripps.

Work in progress turning the good ship PP onto a new course.

This loss may actually help in disciplining the side to learn to 'clamp' sides when they have the ascendancy. Also quietens the fairy story fans.

What the boys have learned is that they have some serious offensive threats and can score quickly and constantly - two weeks in a row of strong scoring in burst. Just a process now to harness and channel that for more consistency.

I saw far more positives in that game, when viewed as an education in offensive skills/learning, than the few obvious negatives. The strong comebacks were especially positive considering Cripps had little influence.

To me the one glaring negative is, and we all know this, too many runts in the midfield. Just need another big body or two in there to support Cripps.

Yep, we need players who can make the likes of Dow, SPS, Fish and LOB really have to strive a lot harder to get a berth.

Our third quarter where we were on top was all Matthew kreuzer.

He took English to town for a quarter after having lowered his colours in the first half.

English lifted in the last.

That was all she wrote.

Our forwards were as bad at locking it in for most of the game as they have been all season aside from that third quarter.

That last run of goals came in junk time after the Bulldogs went 5 goals up.  They hit 15 goals 13 and put the queue in the rack a little too early.

Once we got a run on we stormed back into the game and they rallied and went into a mark kick scenario to kill the momentum and the clock.

People searching for positives will find them.  People searching for negatives will find them.

That wasnt a rmgame we looked like winning for most of it and felt like the north game with one difference.

The Bulldogs are crap and actually turned it over in the third quarter which contributed to us getting back into it.  Typified by caleb Daniel's turnover.


I've seen a trend emerge over the last fortnight.   We are becoming downhill skiers who run harder offensively than they do defensively (backed up by the afl app).  That can be a product of the plan.  It depends on whether or not it requires teams to work harder to attack than defend.  The Bulldogs have the opposite statistic.

Trying to learn a  new plan will take a while, especially with the balance of attack and defence. We did it much better against Brisbane after 45 min and held them to 9 goals after they kicked 6 to 0 in the 45 min period. Last night we were better on the offence, but patchy, but let them kick them easily when the intensity/concentration dropped, hence we kicked 100 and lost. Getting 100 was certainly encouraging for what we are looking for but not so good when the other mob kicks 103. So, yes, there work needed on the balance as you alluded to.

.....................................
Our forwards were as bad at locking it in for most of the game as they have been all season aside from that third quarter.

That last run of goals came in junk time after the Bulldogs went 5 goals up.  They hit 15 goals 13 and put the queue in the rack a little too early.

Once we got a run on we stormed back into the game and they rallied and went into a mark kick scenario to kill the momentum and the clock.

People searching for positives will find them.  People searching for negatives will find them.

That wasn't a game we looked like winning for most of it and felt like the north game with one difference.

The Bulldogs are crap and actually turned it over in the third quarter which contributed to us getting back into it.  Typified by caleb Daniel's turnover.


I've seen a trend emerge over the last fortnight.   We are becoming downhill skiers who run harder offensively than they do defensively (backed up by the afl app).  That can be a product of the plan.  It depends on whether or not it requires teams to work harder to attack than defend.  The Bulldogs have the opposite statistic.

Yes, tend to agree. There's definitely a bit of "back to the future" happening with a strong resemblance to the Ratten era teams, when we were the comeback kings, at least for a time. It makes for a thrilling ride, but last minute mad scrambles are not really the way most coaches would like to win, and I'm sure Teague, Bolton or anyone else would concur. The R5 win was a much superior performance is most aspects, with us being in control most of the game, and dictating proceedings, exactly as most coaches would like.

The tackles v disposals was a concern last night. At a simplistic level, you can understand less tackles if you have more disposals, as in R5. Last night, we had less disposals and less tackles, both by a fair margin, which is a concern for mine.

Yep, we need players who can make the likes of Dow, SPS, Fish and LOB really have to strive a lot harder to get a berth.

We need a couple more big bodies so those guys don't have to be the prime midfielders. Ideally couple of those would have more VFL to help their development along but, while he have plenty of depth forward and back, there not so much in the midfield. A couple of those aren't ready to be our prime mids yet.

The one player who consistently disappoints me is Petrevski Seton. 

Lots of class, but 4 quarter endeavour for his talent far below what it should be. 

Lackadaisical

Agree. SPS is a one way runner that is jogs around when we don’t have the ball to mind  space as it’s easier then running hard and applying a tackle. Lazy footballer.

Dunkley ripped our mids a new one last night and the thing is he is a ‘KID’ in his 4th year. Only played 50 something games.

Yet he isn’t talked up anywhere like our midfield kids are.

Dow for example does a nice side step in traffic or a burst out of congestion once a game but butches the ball most of the time yet fans think they have seen enough for him to be ‘developing nicely’.

Fish is another who can look good with ball in hand but goes missing for long periods, just doesn’t seem capable do it for long enough. His small frame makes him just too weak when in close or in any overhead marking situation. Saw 5 foot nothing Daniel out position him one on one last night.

These kids might make it as regular good quality afl footballers but also might not. We count them in like its just a matter of time.

@ Shawny

I like Dunkley - really puts in and is a strong tackler among his other talents.

My concern is that Dow, SPS and LOB each seem to have acquired the bad habit (from some players I won't name) of casually running along side the opposition ball carrier to give the impression of applying pressure instead of charging full throttle at that prick like you want to break him in half. For guys with good leg speed they really don't use it enough in defensive situations.

My concern is that Dow, SPS and LOB each seem to have acquired the bad habit (from some players I won't name) of casually running along side the opposition ball carrier to give the impression of applying pressure instead of charging full throttle at that prick like you want to break him in half. For guys with good leg speed they really don't use it enough in defensive situations.

This has been raised many times by many posters over the years, and one of the issues I have is that by simple inference, one senior coach after another is either blind, corrupt or incompetent, or possibly all three, because there can be no other logical explanation if your observations are correct.

Imagine the coaches box over the last decade - supposedly Murphy and Gibbs lead the way, but no coach (senior, assistant) ever did a thing ? I can see it if we had one coach over the journey, and he was either hopeless or played favourites, but 6 senior coaches have seen Murphy play, and 2 or 3 have seen SPS, Dow and LOB play, but don't notice these bad habits emerging ?

EDIT : in fact Teague was visibly please to have Murphy back in the pre match interview.

My concern is that Dow, SPS and LOB each seem to have acquired the bad habit (from some players I won't name) of casually running along side the opposition ball carrier to give the impression of applying pressure instead of charging full throttle at that prick like you want to break him in half. For guys with good leg speed they really don't use it enough in defensive situations.

Shouldn't the MF coach be right onto this?

Agreed Paul ... seems many players are not instilled with the same ethic to work together as a team.  Chasing the easy kicks is useless, pitching in when the damage is already done and when you're capitalising on the work of others is damning.

Many times last night, I saw some of our players tell others to provide cover and prevent downfield opportunities

That's a natural instinct ... or should be.

I also disliked Teague's pre game comment regarding placing of some responsibility on the group.  That's his duty.

He should know a better message than that !!.  He's got the car keys, he shifts the gears

....and not haven't watched any of it, what leads you to single them out???

Comments from others....that all 3 were worse than pathetic in the first half. That Dow finished with 9 disposals (and whose disposal is arguable the worst in the AFL)....

Need I go on....

This has been raised many times by many posters over the years, and one of the issues I have is that by simple inference, one senior coach after another is either blind, corrupt or incompetent, or possibly all three, because there can be no other logical explanation if your observations are correct.

Imagine the coaches box over the last decade - supposedly Murphy and Gibbs lead the way, but no coach (senior, assistant) ever did a thing ? I can see it if we had one coach over the journey, and he was either hopeless or played favourites, but 6 senior coaches have seen Murphy play, and 2 or 3 have seen SPS, Dow and LOB play, but don't notice these bad habits emerging ?

EDIT : in fact Teague was visibly please to have Murphy back in the pre match interview.

Pyke had it right, stick Gibbs in the twos.

Problem of our lack of midfield depth, replacing them. If we had the depth we have forward and back so of them might've seen more twos time.

When 14 blokes have 2 tackles or less each in a game....pathetic.

Pyke had it right, stick Gibbs in the twos.

Problem of our lack of midfield depth, replacing them. If we had the depth we have forward and back so of them might've seen more twos time.

That's fine, but it's quite damning that 15 years in the case of Murph and 2 or 3 in the case of the others, how many hundreds of players have we turned over, and not one single player can come in and cover for Murph, not even for a game ? And even in years when we were going nowhere and headed for the spoon, that the MC never thought (not even once) "nah, lazy and soft, stick him in the 2's?" I mean, not once ? If these beliefs about soft lazy players are true, then surely this represents a continued list management failure of epic proportions ?

This has been raised many times by many posters over the years, and one of the issues I have is that by simple inference, one senior coach after another is either blind, corrupt or incompetent, or possibly all three, because there can be no other logical explanation if your observations are correct.

Imagine the coaches box over the last decade - supposedly Murphy and Gibbs lead the way, but no coach (senior, assistant) ever did a thing ? I can see it if we had one coach over the journey, and he was either hopeless or played favourites, but 6 senior coaches have seen Murphy play, and 2 or 3 have seen SPS, Dow and LOB play, but don't notice these bad habits emerging ?

EDIT : in fact Teague was visibly please to have Murphy back in the pre match interview.

Not really. Simple case of no-one to replace them.

With another big body or two in the midfield blokes like Fisher/SPS will be more outside and dangerous.

Comments from others....that all 3 were worse than pathetic in the first half. That Dow finished with 9 disposals (and whose disposal is arguable the worst in the AFL)....

Need I go on....

Couldn’t agree more.

Out of all our kids Dow and Fish get the least criticism.

Have major doubts on Dow. Given a long run in the seniors for sfa improvement. Disposal is poor and just don’t notice him - I guess collecting under 10 touches a game may be a reason.

Drop him for Kennedy. Dow in the 2nds will at least touch it more and get his confidence and hopefully skills up. Then give Kennedy the remainder of the year in the seniors. Needs an extended run for us to see why he has. Must display a reason why we should resign him.

Not really. Simple case of no-one to replace them.

With another big body or two in the midfield blokes like Fisher/SPS will be more outside and dangerous.

If they are as bad as people on here make out, don't you think that 13,14,15 years would be enough time to find replacements ? I imagine this would be something marked "urgent" with indelible ink. 

Couldn’t agree more.

Out of all our kids Dow and Fish get the least criticism.

Have major doubts on Dow. Given a long run in the seniors for sfa improvement. Disposal is poor and just don’t notice him - I guess collecting under 10 touches a game may be a reason.

Drop him for Kennedy. Dow in the 2nds will at least touch it more and get his confidence and hopefully skills up. Then give Kennedy the remainder of the year in the seniors. Needs an extended run for us to see why he has. Must display a reason why we should resign him.

Kids did need more twos time but right now we can't without replacement. Maybe with Kennedy replacing one. Outside of Cripps these kids are playing as our prime mids, whereas they should be down the pecking order in a perfect world. Weighs them down after a while. Hopefully the experience helps.

If they are as bad as people on here make out, don't you think that 13,14,15 years would be enough time to find replacements ? I imagine this would be something marked "urgent" with indelible ink.

We spent about that amount of time with Hughes and Rogers delivering some of the worst draft picks imaginable outside of the no-brainers. No alot of replacements there. When you're crap others don't want to come here. We've had to make kids prime mids, which you don't want to do as they aren't ready. That's where we needed the good 24-27yos but they don't want to know us until we get better.

Slow starts are not helping the results the side comes away with. Surely with the bye, the coaches have a chance to address a few simple issues. Why is the tackle count so low in the first quarter. One percenters and general pressure on your opponent. Can the club be so ignorant to miss these simple issues? You don’t need huge bodies to address these problems. Get some of the basics working better Teague. A couple of player changes and things could swing your way. Don’t allow lazy football to exist at the club.

Are those bagging SPS and Fish and Dow, watching any of the games live?

I don't know, seeing them live I see a great future but as has been said a trillion times on here, they are just kids who have been thrust into roles that ideally they would work towards, have time in the 2's, etc, but we don't have any cover for them.

SPS and Fish are two of the smartest footballers I've seen for a long time, there's rarely stupid long bombs, they're considered and accurate.  Defensively they're too small to take anyone down, does that come in time?  I assume so but I don't know if their physical development is complete.

And Dow will be something special, he has something.  He is 19.

Also, Weiters was widely constantly criticised on here in the past, and last night he was the one I wanted to have the ball, I wanted him to be the one to mark.  As good as Casbolt was and i"m happy for him that he's doing well, I still close my eyes when he has to kick it, hoping for the best!  He took great marks last night but I don't have the level of faith in him that I absolutely have for Weiters now.  Weiters is a beast (a slow beast, tho!)

Slow starts are not helping the results the side comes away with. Surely with the bye, the coaches have a chance to address a few simple issues. Why is the tackle count so low in the first quarter. One percenters and general pressure on your opponent. Can the club be so ignorant to miss these simple issues? You don’t need huge bodies to address these problems. Get some of the basics working better Teague. A couple of player changes and things could swing your way. Don’t allow lazy football to exist at the club.

Many a coach has said "You start the game in the same manner you finished the last one"
With that in mind, go back and look week to week and it scarily accurate.

Start with the bulldogs game. Basically dominated the game. Next week, dominated the first half against the hawks.
Went missing in the 2nd half against the hawks. Next week, went missing for the whole game against North.
Started relatively slowly against the pies early on, but came back, only to go missing again at the end. Next week, went missing for the whole game against GWS.

fast forward,....bombers game, pathetic. Next week, 1st quarter against lions, pathetic.
etc

Based on that, we should start well against Freo. But can we sustain it??

Based on that, we should start well against Freo. But can we sustain it??

Hopefully.... we can't afford 5-6 goal head starts.
A time will come when we don't hit back and we'll cop a flogging.

In fact we were pretty luck the Bulldogs didn't fully convert their dominance in general play early on to the scoreboard yesterday.

Are those bagging SPS and Fish and Dow, watching any of the games live?

I don't know, seeing them live I see a great future but as has been said a trillion times on here, they are just kids who have been thrust into roles that ideally they would work towards, have time in the 2's, etc, but we don't have any cover for them.

SPS and Fish are two of the smartest footballers I've seen for a long time, there's rarely stupid long bombs, they're considered and accurate.  Defensively they're too small to take anyone down, does that come in time?  I assume so but I don't know if their physical development is complete.

And Dow will be something special, he has something.  He is 19.

Spot on.

With SPS and Fisher, being asked to do more than a young, smaller body can do. Sheesh, how long has Murphy been in the system and still has trouble nailing strong tackles against a bigger opponent (yes, I know his shoulders are also suspect).

As I mentioned previously, put another big body or two in that midfield and SPS and Fisher can play on the outside and use their smarts to hurt opponents with disposal.

Totally agree re Dow. In an ideal world he'd have spent a couple of years in the Magoos but we've thrown him straight in. Will be a terrific player.

Good to see Setterfield gain some confidence and improve disposal... might soon be able to go into the midfield.

same old problem long bombs into fwd line,opp run it out. Our fwds any chance they could lead to ball carrier no we want to take a specky or over the back,finally we are kidding ourselves with this bullcrap comeback,at 3/4 time game was there to be won and we got pantsed by 5 goals.

Are those bagging SPS and Fish and Dow, watching any of the games live?

I don't know, seeing them live I see a great future but as has been said a trillion times on here, they are just kids who have been thrust into roles that ideally they would work towards, have time in the 2's, etc, but we don't have any cover for them.

SPS and Fish are two of the smartest footballers I've seen for a long time, there's rarely stupid long bombs, they're considered and accurate.  Defensively they're too small to take anyone down, does that come in time?  I assume so but I don't know if their physical development is complete.

And Dow will be something special, he has something.  He is 19.

Yes, live and TV.

Dow should not play 1s until he can consistently win 20 possies+ in a 2s game and do something useful with the ball.

No one is suggesting he won't become a good player just his present contribution is zip.

Has been all year really.

O’Brien again yesterday showed why he will be very handy for us as we surge forward. Players are gaining confidence in sending the ball to him, knowing the high percentage of his decision making is very good. Again last night he was involved in some of our most exciting passages of play.

When we go to centre bounces with Cripps and 2 of Walsh, SPS, Dow and Fisher (which we do at times) we are setting some unrealistic expectations despite Cripps being a beast. I think these kids all have bright futures, but they need more time to build their bodies and skills (and learn to tackle - HARD).

Throwing them all in the midfield together at once isn't an optimal strategy, we need to assign them some other roles to let them keep learning the game and build up to being the 2023 premiership wining midfield  :)

Sadly our newest player, Walsh, is the best performer of this young midfield cohort. I'd keep Walsh on a wing with some rotations through the centre for the rest of the year. He is developing well but we have to make sure he doesn't take too many physical beatings while his body builds up. I really can't wait to see him in the guts though once he has added 6kgs of muscle and can dish out some physical work to go with his brilliant outside game.

I don't think reserves time is the right way to go with SPS, but neither is keeping him in the midfield in the seniors. I would like to see him tried on the half back line for the rest of this year in a role similar to Johannisen, but with more tackling. A role that lets him use his pace and agility to run and carry the ball out of the back line so we can reduce our reliance on kicking down the boundary line or switching play. Putting SPS down back we'd have to consider using one of Thomas, Simpson or Newman in the midfield though.

Fisher may need some time in the reserves as he seems down this year and needs to find his confidence again. While this would be ideal, its hard to see how we do drop Fisher as there is literally nobody knocking on the door in the reserves that could come in and do better. Maybe Deluca once he's ready to go? If he's in the seniors, I'd have Fisher play more as a half forward where he could start to focus on chasing hard, tackling and applying pressure to lock the ball in our forward line. I'd also like him to start showing some heart and ferocity like Puopolo or Zorko. So when small defenders or opposition mids get the ball, Fisher should be trying to bury them in the turf at every chance. He may be smaller, but I don't want him to turn out like certain senior players who won't go hard.

Of this group, Dow probably is the one that needs some time in the twos the most. He should be played on the ball and at half forward there with a focus on improving his kicking, tackling pressure and endurance. I think he could also do with a confidence boost and his pace could really make him a weapon at that level. But he needs to start turning out regular 25+ disposal games before we bring him back. Until he sorts out these issues I think Kennedy is the better option for the big stage. He may not have Dow's speed, but he has regularly been our best in the reserves and deserves the opportunity to continue improving his game in the seniors. I think Kennedy is physically ready to go, but he needs to learn to lift his work rate. Maybe a tagging role at times will help him with that.

If only we could mix Kennedy's size and strength with Dow's speed and Simpson's spirit!

Plenty of the old....player x should not be playing until....statements going around.

Well from the 'best 22' thread, there are at least a few of those blokes picked in the majority of peoples sides.
So, unless we bring in a sub-par performing player to fill in the position of the kid who "needs to go back to the 2's", then we are better off keeping the kids in to begin with.

Also, Weiters was widely constantly criticised on here in the past, and last night he was the one I wanted to have the ball, I wanted him to be the one to mark.  As good as Casbolt was and i"m happy for him that he's doing well, I still close my eyes when he has to kick it, hoping for the best!  He took great marks last night but I don't have the level of faith in him that I absolutely have for Weiters now.  Weiters is a beast (a slow beast, tho!)

Yes, I thought that was a win for the Dogs, probably a sign of our rookie coaching panel.

Even so the defence played OK and problems with opposition goals last night were again the Mids and HFF getting the balance right!

Are those bagging SPS and Fish and Dow, watching any of the games live?

I don't know, seeing them live I see a great future but as has been said a trillion times on here, they are just kids who have been thrust into roles that ideally they would work towards, have time in the 2's, etc, but we don't have any cover for them.

SPS and Fish are two of the smartest footballers I've seen for a long time, there's rarely stupid long bombs, they're considered and accurate.  Defensively they're too small to take anyone down, does that come in time?  I assume so but I don't know if their physical development is complete.

And Dow will be something special, he has something.  He is 19.

I think that the problem with Fisher, Dow and Samo is that they are usually under enormous pressure.  The emergence of Setterfield should help but we desperately need another inside mid and a mindset focused on looking after teammates with blocks, shepherds and team-oriented stuff generally.

When Ed was moved on to Bontompelli, Liberatore immediately began bumping and blocking Ed, making his task harder and life easier for the Bont.  The last time I saw one of our players do that it was the Chief dealing with Judd’s tagger.

When Ed was moved on to Bontompelli, Liberatore immediately began bumping and blocking Ed, making his task harder and life easier for the Bont.  The last time I saw one of our players do that it was the Chief dealing with Judd’s tagger.

It's just not part of our culture or game plan, and it's been absent for a dozen years or more!

We have it back to front, we have Cripps and Judd types sacrificing themselves for the B-Graders!

Even last night, watch those couple of Cripps fast breaks in the last quarter, a couple of our blokes nearby stand watching as he fights off opponents!

O’Brien again yesterday showed why he will be very handy for us as we surge forward. Players are gaining confidence in sending the ball to him, knowing the high percentage of his decision making is very good. Again last night he was involved in some of our most exciting passages of play.

I must have been watching a different game..be more handy in the twos learning how to kick and hit a target...16 kicks @59% Disposal efficiency including a shocker out on the full at a critical time.
The Dogs wingman in Lipinksi has about 27 @86% plus 2 goals.....not a bad afternoons work for a 20 gamer...
LOB for a pick 10 has a long way to go and is lucky we dont bat deep in the two's, he wont be looking forward to Deluca getting fit either.

Yep, that's glaring to me too.  There is very rarely any sheparding or blocking by our players.  I don't know why, I would think this would be one of the easiest things to implement, when you give off the ball to a player, help them move forward by blocking your opponent and/or his from going after him!  Really, a no brainer.  Saw that too many times last night where we gave it off then stood there, job done apparently  ::)

I think that the problem with Fisher, Dow and Samo is that they are usually under enormous pressure.  The emergence of Setterfield should help but we desperately need another inside mid and a mindset focused on looking after teammates with blocks, shepherds and team-oriented stuff generally.

When Ed was moved on to Bontompelli, Liberatore immediately began bumping and blocking Ed, making his task harder and life easier for the Bont.  The last time I saw one of our players do that it was the Chief dealing with Judd’s tagger.

I think so too. Those kids have had to be front and centre of our midfield right from the start and they weren't ready for it. It's enormous pressure for young kids. Can't all be Sam Walsh's unfortunately. That's where being down the bottom doesn't help couldn't get those couple of topline 24-27yos to be the big bodies and take the pressure off the young players. Plenty of depth at both ends of the ground but not yet in the guts. They'll all be good players, be even better players with big bodied help where they can get on the outside and run.

Yep, that's glaring to me too.  There is very rarely any sheparding or blocking by our players.  I don't know why, I would think this would be one of the easiest things to implement, when you give off the ball to a player, help them move forward by blocking your opponent and/or his from going after him!  Really, a no brainer.  Saw that too many times last night where we gave it off then stood there, job done apparently  ::)

I did see a couple of good give and shepherds though.  I con't remember who it was but I'm pretty sure our youngsters were involved.

In the immediate term? DeLuca..

Didn't notice Deluca in the 2's.
Has he played yet?

Harry McKay and McGovern had a shocker last night.

Harry is a massive worry in that he has absolutely zero game awareness. When a teammate is running down the ground and is about to be run down and needs a target to kick to Harry just keeps running away from him hoping for a 75m kick over the top. Happened in the last quarter with Dow glaringly and quite a few other times in the one match.

Hopefully he can work his way through it but I don't know how many coaches we employ - but even if you had 1 coach surely this is something you'd be able to fix.

How they dropped SOS and left Gov in the team I'll never know. He has lost form completely now.

Didn't notice Deluca in the 2's.
Has he played yet?

I don't think he has. After the bye I believe. This was written on May 29th :

Deluca suffered a grade one hamstring tear at training last Monday night and won’t be available for selection for at least another week or two. With Carlton having their mid-season bye in Round 14, he might not be in the frame for a senior game in the next month.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/how-midseason-rookie-draft-no-1-pick-josh-deluca-got-a-second-chance-at-carlton/news-story/b0466ca980e1544e0954d22fc32d1f1a

I must have been watching a different game..be more handy in the twos learning how to kick and hit a target...16 kicks @59% Disposal efficiency including a shocker out on the full at a critical time.
The Dogs wingman in Lipinksi has about 27 @86% plus 2 goals.....not a bad afternoons work for a 20 gamer...
LOB for a pick 10 has a long way to go and is lucky we dont bat deep in the two's, he wont be looking forward to Deluca getting fit either.

Credit where it's due - LOB was much better last night.

He was one of our best in the first half. Died out a little in the second but ran his guts out against his far more experienced opponents (mostly Hunter).

Overall has been much better the last 2 weeks .

Far from perfect but developing nicely and hopefully he can get more of the ball from now on.

(Lipinski is a 3rd year player and would have about 10kg on LOB)

I don't think he has. After the bye I believe. This was written on May 29th :

Deluca suffered a grade one hamstring tear at training last Monday night and won’t be available for selection for at least another week or two. With Carlton having their mid-season bye in Round 14, he might not be in the frame for a senior game in the next month.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/how-midseason-rookie-draft-no-1-pick-josh-deluca-got-a-second-chance-at-carlton/news-story/b0466ca980e1544e0954d22fc32d1f1a

Thanks Paul
Geez, how's his luck. That must have just about his first training session  :-\
Playing in a higher grade isn't ideal after an injury either

Credit where it's due - LOB was much better last night.

He was one of our best in the first half. Died out a little in the second but ran his guts out against his far more experienced opponents (mostly Hunter).

Overall has been much better the last 2 weeks .

Far from perfect but developing nicely and hopefully he can get more of the ball from now on.

(Lipinski is a 3rd year player and would have about 10kg on LOB)

LOB is 185cm and 78kg, Pick 10 and has played 26 games, Lipinski is 187cm and 84kg, Pick 28 and has played 21 games....Not a real lot of difference given they run down the wing and dont do stoppage work.
LOB was meant to be a very good kick but continues to butcher the ball, 59% is very poor given he isnt a contested player
and requires other players to give him the ball so he can be the link player with supposed good disposal.
He is very lucky we dont have much in the two's IMO...Pick 10 was way overs given his output and skill level.

Thanks Paul
..............

No worries.

LOB is 185cm and 78kg, Pick 10 and has played 26 games, Lipinski is 187cm and 84kg, Pick 28 and has played 21 games....Not a real lot of difference given they run down the wing and dont do stoppage work.
LOB was meant to be a very good kick but continues to butcher the ball, 59% is very poor given he isnt a contested player
and requires other players to give him the ball so he can be the link player with supposed good disposal.
He is very lucky we dont have much in the two's IMO...Pick 10 was way overs given his output and skill level.

3rd year vs. 2nd year.

Pick 10 may look overs right now - but as I say you're incredibly harsh on a 19 year old. Just show a tiny bit of patience.

That was Setterfield's best game in a long while. Big positive.

The simple reason why we lost this game is that we had way too many passengers too often.

3rd year vs. 2nd year.

Pick 10 may look overs right now - but as I say you're incredibly harsh on a 19 year old. Just show a tiny bit of patience.

(Should see what he says about poor young Ben Silvagni!!)

(Should see what he says about poor young Ben Silvagni!!)

Thats the poor young Ben who wont chase, cant be bothered putting in much effort and thinks playing senior footy will just happen because Dad's a big wheel
at the club and is doing it so tough...forgive me for calling him out when I should be wearing my Navy Blue glasses and adoring his wonderful work ethic.
You keep monitoring Lachies high percentage of disposal efficiency too ....59%.....if thats high then you are easy to please....

Just watched the replay (second half only) and geeze SPS and Fish were instrumental in getting us back in it with smart ball movement.  No need to worry about them, they’ll be fine.

How good is Cunners? Look forward to seeing him further develop!

forgive me for calling him out when I should be wearing my Navy Blue glasses and adoring his wonderful work.

I think the term you used for a raw 19 year old who has played a handful of NB games ‘an oxygen thief’. Personally I’d prefer to keep that terminology for paedophiles, granny bashers and rapists, not young kids wearing a Carlton jumper who are just starting out.

I think the term you used for a raw 19 year old who has played a handful of NB games ‘an oxygen thief’. Personally I’d prefer to keep that terminology for paedophiles, granny bashers and rapists, not young kids wearing a Carlton jumper who are just starting out.

Maybe I was a bit harsh with oxygen thief but I get frustrated when players dont chase or give the required minimal effort and think they can slack off...19 year olds still have to chase and provide effort.
His brother Jack provides the role model that Ben should be following....

Maybe I was a bit harsh with oxygen thief but I get frustrated when players dont chase or give the required minimal effort and think they can slack off...19 year olds still have to chase and provide effort.
His brother Jack provides the role model that Ben should be following....

You must have been a well developed 18 year old in your day.

You must have been a well developed 18 year old in your day.

Ben is 196cm and 87kg, you would think if the much
smaller Sam Walsh can make the effort to chase and tackle senior players then Ben can make a bit of effort to chase some kids
from the burbs around in the twos...

Ben is 196cm and 87kg, you would think if the much
smaller Sam Walsh can make the effort to chase and tackle senior players then Ben can make a bit of effort to chase some kids
from the burbs around in the twos...

With all due respect EB1 I think our expectations requuire a bit of tempering.  I agree he isnt doing that well, but a couple of things.  1.  Big men take longer to come on.  2.  He has shown glimpses of talent, and he seems to be one of those who thinks it will just happen if you are good enough, hence why he went from a potential pick 1, to almost not drafted.  3.  Walsh is not your average kid joining the AFL and of his draft year only a couple of had anywhere near the impact he has and most draftees will never even equal his achievement let alone show his attitude.  4.  The NB's have a habit of taking chocolates and turning them into boiled lollies for our draftees and AFL players and we might do well to start pumping some much needed resources into Preston if we want that relationship to flourish and continue.  Polson has 100% of the correct attitude and even he struggles to show something.  Perhaps this level is simply much harder for these kids than we thinkg it is and unless you are supremely talented and prepared to do what it takes, you wont succeed at this level.

With all due respect EB1 I think our expectations requuire a bit of tempering.  I agree he isnt doing that well, but a couple of things.  1.  Big men take longer to come on.  2.  He has shown glimpses of talent, and he seems to be one of those who thinks it will just happen if you are good enough, hence why he went from a potential pick 1, to almost not drafted.  3.  Walsh is not your average kid joining the AFL and of his draft year only a couple of had anywhere near the impact he has and most draftees will never even equal his achievement let alone show his attitude.  4.  The NB's have a habit of taking chocolates and turning them into boiled lollies for our draftees and AFL players and we might do well to start pumping some much needed resources into Preston if we want that relationship to flourish and continue.  Polson has 100% of the correct attitude and even he struggles to show something.  Perhaps this level is simply much harder for these kids than we thinkg it is and unless you are supremely talented and prepared to do what it takes, you wont succeed at this level.

Point 2 is my problem with him Thry, he has some talent but plays like it is a birthright rather than hard work that will take him to the next level....I'm only asking for him to run and chase not to take mark of the year every week or be BOG. Big blokes do take longer but you look his brother Jack and his game is all about doing the basics and giving 100% and thats why I like him in the senior team, not a gifted athlete like his brother but Jack tries , plays for the jumper, gives effort and thats all I ask for. Matt Owies gets better each week and plays with some intensity and spirit...Ben needs to do similar.

^^  I don't disagree with you EB.  It is half expected though.  He isn't the first, and wont be the last.  In fact, brother Jack might be the way he is because of brother Ben.  Less talent, more determination.  Anyway, we will see.  First year players get a bit of a reprieve for mine simply because there is a massive culture shock and playing at our footy club appears to be a burden that weighs heavily on better players.

Speaking of which, I understand that lachie O'brien is a youngster and you review youngsters too harshly at your peril, but have a look at what an independant scribe says about him.

https://themongrelpunt.com/afl/2019/06/13/gbudogsblues

PS GOING MISSING

Sam Petrevski-Seton is a smooth mover, and when he gets the ball in hand, he can look like a million bucks.

So, where was he in the first half tonight? Six touches running through the midfield is about as bad as it gets in a half of footy. No hard tag. No one giving him special attention – he just could not get near it.

For mine, this bloke, for all his talent and all his ability, goes missing in games way too often. Bundle him in with Paddy Dow if you like, but I actually rate SPS higher. He had 35 touches in Round Five, and fast forward eight weeks, he can go virtually unsighted for an entire half of footy?

He is now 55 games into his career. Carlton are waiting for someone to leap out of the box in the midfield and provide a spark. Sam Walsh will provide a steady, solid hand, but they need someone explosive. It should be SPS. It could be Zac Fisher. It definitely won’t be Lachie O’Brien – he’s a spud and if you argue against that, I think you run the risk of exposing your footy ignorance. Watch him duck his head in a marking contest on the lead in the second quarter inside 50. Unnatural forward, unnatural midfielder.

People talk about the Blues building, or the Blues coming, or smelling what the Blues are cooking (my favourite), but unless SPS is prominent more often than he goes missing, it probably isn’t going to happen. At some point the distance between a 35 disposal whacking and an 18 disposal cameo has to close, and it has to be sooner rather than later for the Blues to improve.

I can handle form slumps when they have shown ability.  SPS is showing waivering form, and Dow is having second year blues.  I wrote off any expectations of him having a good year about 4 or 5 weeks ago when he was going backwards form wise, and that is continuing.  He will be better next year, that I know because his first season showed he had more in him.  This is why we haven't been better this year.  In fact, the kids are playing about as well as we can hope given how much load they have to carry.  There are others around the traps that have shown more, and are delivering less.  Its the senior players that are really going missing when we need them.  We seem to lack fulll game footballers at the moment, and its a real problem.

In fact Teague has got ahead of himself already.  Jack Silvagni has been one of the few 4 quarter players we have had this season and dropping him last week sends entirely the wrong message to the playing group.


Finally does anyone know what Ed Curnow has done to himself and if he will be available next week?  Rumour has it he went off in the final quarter and didnt come back on.

^^  I don't disagree with you EB.  It is half expected though.  He isn't the first, and wont be the last.  In fact, brother Jack might be the way he is because of brother Ben.  Less talent, more determination.  Anyway, we will see.  First year players get a bit of a reprieve for mine simply because there is a massive culture shock and playing at our footy club appears to be a burden that weighs heavily on better players.

Speaking of which, I understand that lachie O'brien is a youngster and you review youngsters too harshly at your peril, but have a look at what an independant scribe says about him.

https://themongrelpunt.com/afl/2019/06/13/gbudogsblues



I can handle form slumps when they have shown ability.  SPS is showing waivering form, and Dow is having second year blues.  I wrote off any expectations of him having a good year about 4 or 5 weeks ago when he was going backwards form wise, and that is continuing.  He will be better next year, that I know because his first season showed he had more in him.  This is why we haven't been better this year.  In fact, the kids are playing about as well as we can hope given how much load they have to carry.  There are others around the traps that have shown more, and are delivering less.  Its the senior players that are really going missing when we need them.  We seem to lack fulll game footballers at the moment, and its a real problem.

In fact Teague has got ahead of himself already.  Jack Silvagni has been one of the few 4 quarter players we have had this season and dropping him last week sends entirely the wrong message to the playing group.


Finally does anyone know what Ed Curnow has done to himself and if he will be available next week?  Rumour has it he went off in the final quarter and didnt come back on.

Thry, I wouldnt spend my time posting about Ben if I didnt think he had some ability but was going to waste it , he can make it if he applies himself like his brother.

SPS, Fisher and Dow are probably not genuine inside heavy contested mids but are being forced to play there....SPS should be our Shaun Burgoyne who gives us the silk and flair.
Fisher is a good contested player who can win his own ball but wont ever be big enough to play on the 190cm mids of which the Dogs had three on the weekend.
Dow is a decent size but is a burst player who does his best work carrying the ball and breaking the lines, I really like Paddy but again he is being forced to play a heavy contested game at times vs
bigger players and its not really his game. We need another one or two heavily built mids like a Cunnington or Ellis Yolmen who can help Cripps and allow those other players to do what they do best.

Lachie Obrien has obvious flaws, he isnt a great contested player and if other players are not feeding him the ball he wont have much impact.
Thats ok if he is hitting his targets by foot and doing his job which is to distribute the ball, I have been on his case because his disposal has been poor, 59%DE on the weekend from 16 kicks
isnt a good game IMO and he might struggle for a game when Deluca is fit.

I thought Ed just looked tired, did a great job on the Bont in the 2nd half but was giving away a lot of size and just looked worn down....

LOB is simply a waste of a #10 selection.

Major f... up.

He wouldn't get a game at any other AFL Club. Period.

LOB is simply a waste of a #10 selection.

Major f... up.

He wouldn't get a game at any other AFL Club. Period.

While I agree he is not worth a #10 (at the moment....) I think there is a lot to work with. 

Some draft picks are instant winners, others are a slow burn.  Over the last two weeks, LOB has looked better because we have been moving the ball faster, and as a run 'n carry, his game style is more suited to faster movement.  When we have been using the slow grind method of ball movement, he has been smashed in the clinches and looked out of his depth. 

He certainly needs to hit the weights over the next couple of pre-seasons, but I have high hopes that he will become a significant delivery boy for Curnow, McKay et al.

LOB is simply a waste of a #10 selection.

Major f... up.

He wouldn't get a game at any other AFL Club. Period.

What's the average success rate for pick #10?

I'll be surprised if long term it's much better than pure chance which is 50%, so any pick that looks capable of playing 100 games is a winner! 7 of the following 15 fail the test!

10   Nicholas Blakey   Sydney Swans   UNSW/ES Bulldogs   2018
10   Lochie O'Brien   Carlton   Bendigo Pioneers   2017
10   Jack Bowes   Gold Coast   Cairns   2016
10   Harry McKay   Carlton   Gippsland U18   2015
10   Nakia Cockatoo   Geelong   NT Thunder   2014
10   Nathan Freeman   Collingwood   Sandringham U18   2013
10   Joe Daniher   Essendon   Calder U18   2012
10   Liam Sumner   Greater Western Sydney   Sandringham U18   2011
10   Daniel Gorringe   Gold Coast   Norwood   2010
10   Jake Melksham   Essendon   Calder U18   2009
10   Phil Davis   Adelaide   North Adelaide   2008
10   Patrick Dangerfield   Adelaide   Geelong U18   2007
10   Nathan J. Brown   Collingwood   North Ballarat U18   2006
10   Marcus Drum   Fremantle   Murray U18   2005
10   Chris Egan   Collingwood   Murray U18   2004

What's the average success rate for pick #10?

I'll be surprised if it's better than 50%, which is pure chance, so any pick that looks capable of playing 100 games is a winner!

https://www.draftguru.com.au/picks/10

There's some good ones and also some shockers in there, like most pick numbers.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/picks/10

There's some good ones and also some shockers in there, like most pick numbers.

Thanks PaulP, that's 13 of the last 37 that have made 100 games, 35% success!

I suspect O'Brien is better than average and if injury free should get 100 games either at Carlton or in career total.

Is it reasonable for me to set 100 AFL games as the measure of a successful draft pick?

btw., looking at pick #20, success rate 21%, so to me it seems such picks are not equal to players! (Disturbing given the AFL's opaque methods can mean Draft Pick #20 is a first round pick with only 21% chance of success. Think about that when trading away a 100 gamer or supplementary KPP!)

Thanks PaulP, that's 13 of the last 37 that have made 100 games, 35% success!

...........

No worries.

The fact is you cannot tell if he'll be any good or not as he's skinny and 19.

Disagreeing with that is a "spud"like thing to do in my opinion.

Anyone can bookmark this page and come back in 12 months and make you look a complete and total dill.

The fact is you cannot tell if he'll be any good or not as he's skinny and 19.

Disagreeing with that is a "spud"like thing to do in my opinion.

Anyone can bookmark this page and come back in 12 months and make you look a complete and total dill.

Agreed.

In the context of SOS, Draft picks and f... ups, the early O'Brien negativity is sailing into the headwind. Just based on stats alone he is already 1/3rd of the way to the average number of games for a Pick #10, and 25% of the way to 100 games!

Of course I accept there is some ambiguity, for example setting the 100 game threshold leaves Joe Daniher a success at 104 games, but in reality he is probably closer to a scrub! I'd say that Big H(Pick #10 - 28 games) or Charlie(Pick #12 - 57 games) already have Daniher covered!

There’s something about LOB - he’s hungry for it and he was hugely pissed when he gave away a free in their f50.  Showed some passion, lacking at CFC for many lately

LOB is simply a waste of a #10 selection.

Major f... up.

He wouldn't get a game at any other AFL Club. Period.

I agree he was a unusual pick 10, and one that raised eyebrows.  However he does have one good quality about him that I like. He has the confidence to use the ball long by foot - He kicks it hard and low a lot of the time and while his DE might not be as good as say a Walsh or SPS who like to chip the ball 20-25mts, when Obrien hits the target they are damaging possessions. They usually give our forwards a one on one and he kicks nicely to advantage as well. Long foot skills is a great quality to see in a very young player. He obviously still has heaps to build on but I rate that side of his game...I'm willing to give him more time.

Dow is the one that concerns me.....doesn't get it often and when he does its usually not clean. My concern is how many young players over the years, have we developed from a poor kick to a good one? Not many!  We are not Geelong or Hawthorn in the development side so selecting Dow with pick 3 was a dumb move IMO.

Thats the poor young Ben who wont chase, cant be bothered putting in much effort and thinks playing senior footy will just happen because Dad's a big wheel
at the club and is doing it so tough...

I think you spelt "Gary Ablett" wrong.

https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2019-06-17/thomas-fined-by-mro

The fact is you cannot tell if he'll be any good or not as he's skinny and 19.

Disagreeing with that is a "spud"like thing to do in my opinion.

Anyone can bookmark this page and come back in 12 months and make you look a complete and total dill.

I quoted an article jeza.  I wont hide the fact I dont rate him but that doesn't mean much at this stage.

There’s something about LOB - he’s hungry for it and he was hugely pissed when he gave away a free in their f50.  Showed some passion, lacking at CFC for many lately

I agree, and I don’t really understand the criticism he gets.  He is another of our youngsters who would benefit from the addition of a couple of mature, hard at it players. 

Like many of our players, he needs to work on his tackling technique (I wonder if my old PE teacher Paddy McGoldrick is still around  :-\ ) but the main thing he needs is teammates willing to shepherd and block to give him time and space to make his disposals count.

I agree he was a unusual pick 10, and one that raised eyebrows.  However he does have one good quality about him that I like. He has the confidence to use the ball long by foot - He kicks it hard and low a lot of the time and while his DE might not be as good as say a Walsh or SPS who like to chip the ball 20-25mts, when Obrien hits the target they are damaging possessions. They usually give our forwards a one on one and he kicks nicely to advantage as well. Long foot skills is a great quality to see in a very young player. He obviously still has heaps to build on but I rate that side of his game...I'm willing to give him more time.

Dow is the one that concerns me.....doesn't get it often and when he does its usually not clean. My concern is how many young players over the years, have we developed from a poor kick to a good one? Not many!  We are not Geelong or Hawthorn in the development side so selecting Dow with pick 3 was a dumb move IMO.

Couldn’t disagree more that he was a miss at pick 3 - second year player who had live breaking speed which is rare. He’ll tidy up his disposal and I think I’m time he will be an absolute gem. Just some teething issues, nothing more.

Couldn’t disagree more that he was a miss at pick 3 - second year player who had live breaking speed which is rare. He’ll tidy up his disposal and I think I’m time he will be an absolute gem. Just some teething issues, nothing more.

You are basing it on what you 'think' he will become. The thing is to this point, we selected a player at pick 3 who was known to be iffy with his disposal and after 35 odd games it has not improved one bit. This is a fact and why I hope it fixes it self with another season I think im not on my own is saying I have some doubts.

We don't have a great record at fixing players deficiencies. We have delisted most of the poor users because we couldn't fix them. Levi has qualities others don't otherwise he wouldn't be there either.

  

Dow is a genuine worry for me. He was thrown into the deep end from the get-go but his disposal can still be quite erratic, all too often in fact. Not sure whether this can be fixed? Perhaps more quality time with Diesel?

Although hailed as the MF type we so badly needed, Kennedy has not really delivered much and looks very slow. OK he has been injured but he does need to start to show the goods soon, with some really convincing performances in the NBs, otherwise........

LOB is another kid who has been thrown into the deep end to sink or swim and at times does it tough. Ideally he would be playing NBs, probably for this year at least, but our lack of depth has seen him prematurely thrown into the front line. Hopefully this does not result in a premature fall from grace. CFC can be a cruel place indeed!

There is plenty of talk about us going into the market to bolster our mature MF stocks - let us pray that this talk turns into action this year or else we will likely regress as our existing elder statesmen come up for retirement and our kids get broken or disillusioned.

Luke Beveridge made a point on TF that Footscray had less game experience than Carlton on Sunday. I checked this out and he is right by a total of three games overall. This is where stats are misleading. If you take out our three most experienced players and take out there most experienced players then the differential is over 300 in our favour. Our six most experienced players make up 65% of our total games played. Because of this our players will be up and down with form.
I was also reminded on FC that McGovern broke his back in the pre-season which will explain the issues with his hamstring tightness and gives some context around the lack of impact he is having in games.

Correct.

McGovern and Charlie have had a few injuries and have returned sooner than expected that would explain their form.

Dow is a genuine worry for me. He was thrown into the deep end from the get-go but his disposal can still be quite erratic, all too often in fact. Not sure whether this can be fixed? Perhaps more quality time with Diesel?

Although hailed as the MF type we so badly needed, Kennedy has not really delivered much and looks very slow. OK he has been injured but he does need to start to show the goods soon, with some really convincing performances in the NBs, otherwise........

LOB is another kid who has been thrown into the deep end to sink or swim and at times does it tough. Ideally he would be playing NBs, probably for this year at least, but our lack of depth has seen him prematurely thrown into the front line. Hopefully this does not result in a premature fall from grace. CFC can be a cruel place indeed!

There is plenty of talk about us going into the market to bolster our mature MF stocks - let us pray that this talk turns into action this year or else we will likely regress as our existing elder statesmen come up for retirement and our kids get broken or disillusioned.

The entire draft year is struggling.

I wouldnt worry about using the current sample of work for anything in particular.  They are all experiencing second year blues with the exception of Tim Kelly who is a mature player who is in his mid 20's and plays in a team sitting two games clear top of the ladder.

Luke Beveridge made a point on TF that Footscray had less game experience than Carlton on Sunday. I checked this out and he is right by a total of three games overall. This is where stats are misleading. If you take out our three most experienced players and take out there most experienced players then the differential is over 300 in our favour. Our six most experienced players make up 65% of our total games played. Because of this our players will be up and down with form.
I was also reminded on FC that McGovern broke his back in the pre-season which will explain the issues with his hamstring tightness and gives some context around the lack of impact he is having in games.

Precisely the point.

Statistics are being used to display all manner of data but when you drill into it, we are simply 2 years away from having the kids all coming along to the magic number of 100 games  where they will all be ready to hit their prime and be consistent 4 quarter footballers.

The people in the know will see this and realise that this is when our window begins.  For now, they just have to continue learning through matches, and part of that is figuring out how to arrest momentum shifts in games which seems to be the theme of the season for us. 

Dow is a genuine worry for me. He was thrown into the deep end from the get-go but his disposal can still be quite erratic, all too often in fact. Not sure whether this can be fixed? Perhaps more quality time with Diesel?

Although hailed as the MF type we so badly needed, Kennedy has not really delivered much and looks very slow. OK he has been injured but he does need to start to show the goods soon, with some really convincing performances in the NBs, otherwise........

LOB is another kid who has been thrown into the deep end to sink or swim and at times does it tough. Ideally he would be playing NBs, probably for this year at least, but our lack of depth has seen him prematurely thrown into the front line. Hopefully this does not result in a premature fall from grace. CFC can be a cruel place indeed!

There is plenty of talk about us going into the market to bolster our mature MF stocks - let us pray that this talk turns into action this year or else we will likely regress as our existing elder statesmen come up for retirement and our kids get broken or disillusioned.

Dow went well last year and started the season well this year but he should not be a prime mid atn this stage of his career. Same with O'Brien. Getting decent mids between 24-27yo is important both for the side and the development of those kids. It's wearing down Dow, LOB and even Fisher. Can see why we plucked big bodies from anywhere we could to try to help those players even if they weren't any good.

Dow's main improvement will be getting more of the ball, he was never a reliable kick at TAC level so I dont think that is likely to improve much at senior AFL level.
He got big numbers at TAC level....30 possies was an average game for him and was getting 40 possies a game at times, it was his work rate and non stop running that was the key to his game much like we see from Walsh and why the latter is so good and carried that TAC form across.

I'd leave Dow on a wing and let him run up and down and keep him out of the middle where you need real grunt and muscle. The kid is a running machine and being used
wrongly IMO.

Dow's main improvement will be getting more of the ball, he was never a reliable kick at TAC level so I dont think that is likely to improve much at senior AFL level.
He got big numbers at TAC level....30 possies was an average game for him and was getting 40 possies a game at times, it was his work rate and non stop running that was the key to his game much like we see from Walsh and why the latter is so good and carried that TAC form across.

I'd leave Dow on a wing and let him run up and down and keep him out of the middle where you need real grunt and muscle. The kid is a running machine and being used
wrongly IMO.

Agreed, Dow's go is to be the man in the middle sweeper, he needs to get in between Cripps/Setterfield and whoever we have working outside the stoppage. Dow to receive then burst and dish off to whoever we have passing to break open the stoppage. We need him using those first 3 to 5 steps to buy the outside runners time and space to use the ball better. At the moment we have SPS and Fisher being the sweeper roles, and handing off to Dow and others, I think that is back to front because Dow was never a great ball user!

Dow's main improvement will be getting more of the ball, he was never a reliable kick at TAC level so I dont think that is likely to improve much at senior AFL level.
He got big numbers at TAC level....30 possies was an average game for him and was getting 40 possies a game at times, it was his work rate and non stop running that was the key to his game much like we see from Walsh and why the latter is so good and carried that TAC form across.

I'd leave Dow on a wing and let him run up and down and keep him out of the middle where you need real grunt and muscle. The kid is a running machine and being used
wrongly IMO.

EB, Dow is too slow to be left on a wing - would get cut up on counter attack. the thing is if as you say his kicking is unlikely to improve at senior level 1) Why did we draft him at pick 3? and 2) Do we want a bloke getting it 30 times if 15 of those 30 are clangers or turnovers.

I would rather we kept Robbo and Bell if disposal could be excused.

IMO he should be in the 2s racking up possessions without the pressure of the seniors and only step back up once he has improved that part of his game.

He's as bad a kick for goal as I've seen! 

EB, Dow is too slow to be left on a wing

Really! ???

I think you can safely criticise Dow for several things, but being slow isn't one of them!

Do we have anyone faster? :o

He's as bad a kick for goal as I've seen! 

EB, Dow is too slow to be left on a wing - would get cut up on counter attack. the thing is if as you say his kicking is unlikely to improve at senior level 1) Why did we draft him at pick 3? and 2) Do we want a bloke getting it 30 times if 15 of those 30 are clangers or turnovers.

I would rather we kept Robbo and Bell if disposal could be excused.

IMO he should be in the 2s racking up possessions without the pressure of the seniors and only step back up once he has improved that part of his game.

He's as bad a kick for goal as I've seen!

Dow is a very good burst player Shawny and an ideal winger material IMO, he has a strong pair of legs that allow him to get up to speed real quick and it was his hallmark
at TAC cup level where he would grab the loose ball as it spilled from packs and motor away often kicking goals on the run, he missed a lot too but it wasnt lack of speed that caused him problems.
He isnt as developed in the upper body and playing him in the middle vs the likes of Ellis-Yoleman, Cunnington etc isnt his go and we need to get a bigger bodied player in the middle to help Cripps
rather than sacrificing Dow, Fisher, SPS who just dont have the size and never will to compete.
Its not Dow's fault that we dont have the right balance on the list to provide him with the support he needs so for now he needs a position where we can use his talents better...

It's an indictment on how poor Kennedy and Lang have been, albeit missing games with injuries too. They were recruited for that bigger bodied midfield role and have done absolutely SFA and will be lucky to survive the cull at year-end IMO.

Throw the proverbial kitchen sink at Coniglio and if that means this year's first round pick and next year's as well then I'd do it....you know exactly what you're getting....a strong inside/oustide midfielder who's shown he can also kick goals...and still relatively young.

It's an indictment on how poor Kennedy and Lang have been, albeit missing games with injuries too. They were recruited for that bigger bodied midfield role and have done absolutely SFA and will be lucky to survive the cull at year-end IMO.

Throw the proverbial kitchen sink at Coniglio and if that means this year's first round pick and next year's as well then I'd do it....you know exactly what you're getting....a strong inside/oustide midfielder who's shown he can also kick goals...and still relatively young.

Coniglio is a restricted free agent so we just have to make him an offer he can't refuse ... and convince him that we're on track for a top four finish in the near future.

My bad DJC....I wasn't sure if it was end of this year or next year. So yes, make an offer he'll find hard to refuse and, as you say, show him why there's more upside in the future than say a Hawthorn where's he rumoured to be opting for.

Dow reminds me of Judd, who BTW also had abysmal disposal.
If Dow can keep developing and find the ball as much as Judd did, he will be ok. i am not concerned about him.
I had big concerns around LOB. He went pretty well in the last game, he had some good possessions and used the ball reasonably well. I doubt he will be a world beater, but he will be a good AFL footballer. He is the type of guy that at any other club he would be playing in the 2s and likely wouldnt have been considered for a senior game at this point, but he is at Carlton and we aren't blessed with depth and he has shown improvement and definitely heart.

Dow reminds me of Judd, who BTW also had abysmal disposal.
If Dow can keep developing and find the ball as much as Judd did, he will be ok. i am not concerned about him.
I had big concerns around LOB. He went pretty well in the last game, he had some good possessions and used the ball reasonably well. I doubt he will be a world beater, but he will be a good AFL footballer. He is the type of guy that at any other club he would be playing in the 2s and likely wouldnt have been considered for a senior game at this point, but he is at Carlton and we aren't blessed with depth and he has shown improvement and definitely heart.

Judd's disposal was A ok until injury hit....and it was always better than Paddy's - which has become laughably bad sadly.

Agreed, Dow's go is to be the man in the middle sweeper, he needs to get in between Cripps/Setterfield and whoever we have working outside the stoppage. Dow to receive then burst and dish off to whoever we have passing to break open the stoppage. We need him using those first 3 to 5 steps to buy the outside runners time and space to use the ball better. At the moment we have SPS and Fisher being the sweeper roles, and handing off to Dow and others, I think that is back to front because Dow was never a great ball user!

We rotate a completely new set of mids through the midfield at every centre bounce.

I don't think we're in a position to do that. If I were coach I'd pick our best 3 mids and have them go with Kreuzer for 85%+ of the centre bounces. They can push into other positions afterwards.

Kreuzer / Cripps / Curnow / Dow.

If that's our best then let them do the centre bounces from now on.

We've had SOS, Cunningham, SPS, Fisher, Setterfield, etc. all rotating through regularly. Doesn't make sense to me.

Judd's disposal was A ok until injury hit....and it was always better than Paddy's - which has become laughably bad sadly.

Agree - though Judd's was never top notch.

Dow is playing like he needs a rest in the 2s to get his mojo back.

Agree - though Judd's was never top notch.

Dow is playing like he needs a rest in the 2s to get his mojo back.

I'd like them in the 2s just to have a break from playing seniors. So many young blokes are bearing the brunt in the midfield long before their time. Takes a toll after a while.

Like to see Harry have more of a run on the ball too. Just for now staying up forward with the best defender on him is stifling him. More of a run on the ball allows him to just run around and get his hands on it. Can only help him.

Harry needs to seriously improve his ruck work before he gets more time on ball. Hopefully that will develop nicely over the next 12 months (I'm sure he's doing plenty at training because we need him to be able to play that role)

Harry needs to seriously improve his ruck work before he gets more time on ball. Hopefully that will develop nicely over the next 12 months (I'm sure he's doing plenty at training because we need him to be able to play that role)

6-7 min a qtr will help. You can win clearances to a losing ruck. What we lose in the ruck will more than balance by increasing his confidence.

You may be right, depends on what is most important right now, player development or winning games

Jeza....would you not have Walsh in that list of our 3 best mids? He's streets ahead of Dow.

I'd like them in the 2s just to have a break from playing seniors. So many young blokes are bearing the brunt in the midfield long before their time. Takes a toll after a while.

The problem with this logic is that the VFL games can actually be more taxing on the kids.
Its a more physical brand of football in the VFL as they are less talented than the AFL, so the ball ends up on the ground a lot more leading to more contests.
The grounds are generally smaller as well, meaning players are less likely to be out in space.
The grounds generally have worse conditions too. Be that the playing surface, or the gale force winds that some experience.
All leading to more contests.

The kids, could potentially spend more time actually in the midfield in the 2's as their relative ability means they might be the #1 midfielder in the VFL team, but #6 in the AFL side.


So....all of this 'resting' in the 2's could actually be more taxing on them.

The problem with this logic is that the VFL games can actually be more taxing on the kids.
Its a more physical brand of football in the VFL as they are less talented than the AFL, so the ball ends up on the ground a lot more leading to more contests.
The grounds are generally smaller as well, meaning players are less likely to be out in space.
The grounds generally have worse conditions too. Be that the playing surface, or the gale force winds that some experience.
All leading to more contests.

The kids, could potentially spend more time actually in the midfield in the 2's as their relative ability means they might be the #1 midfielder in the VFL team, but #6 in the AFL side.


So....all of this 'resting' in the 2's could actually be more taxing on them.

Another argument about "resting players in the 2s" comes from Mick Malthouse.  He is adamant that playing in the 2s negatively affects a player's performance and, accordingly, he was reluctant to let usual first 22 players spend time in the 2s.  That was why he recalled players, even if their form in the 2s didn't justify promotion.

If Russell decides that a youngster needs a break, he should have a break and not play in the NBs.

Jeza....would you not have Walsh in that list of our 3 best mids? He's streets ahead of Dow.

I would for sure - but only coming off the wing.

Another argument about "resting players in the 2s" comes from Mick Malthouse.  He is adamant that playing in the 2s negatively affects a player's performance and, accordingly, he was reluctant to let usual first 22 players spend time in the 2s.  That was why he recalled players, even if their form in the 2s didn't justify promotion.

If Russell decides that a youngster needs a break, he should have a break and not play in the NBs.

Exactly.

Make them the travelling emergency or something.

The problem with this logic is that the VFL games can actually be more taxing on the kids.
Its a more physical brand of football in the VFL as they are less talented than the AFL, so the ball ends up on the ground a lot more leading to more contests.
The grounds are generally smaller as well, meaning players are less likely to be out in space.
The grounds generally have worse conditions too. Be that the playing surface, or the gale force winds that some experience.
All leading to more contests.

The kids, could potentially spend more time actually in the midfield in the 2's as their relative ability means they might be the #1 midfielder in the VFL team, but #6 in the AFL side.


So....all of this 'resting' in the 2's could actually be more taxing on them.

Give them a break from the scrutiny of the AFL and the pressure of the crowd. Play at a lower level, rack up 30 and relax a bit, have a bit of fun and then come back. Maybe take a week off footy all together also.

Regardless.... Dow's form doesn't warrant selection in the AFL right now. I don't think many would argue with that.

Give them a break from the scrutiny of the AFL and the pressure of the crowd. Play at a lower level, rack up 30 and relax a bit, have a bit of fun and then come back. Maybe take a week off footy all together also.

Regardless.... Dow's form doesn't warrant selection in the AFL right now. I don't think many would argue with that.

I would  :)

He will learn nothing in the NBs, no-one in the NBs is putting their hand up to take his place, and he’s doing OK in a team that needs a couple of mature mids to take some heat off Dow, Walsh, Fisher, Samo ...

I would  :)

He will learn nothing in the NBs, no-one in the NBs is putting their hand up to take his place, and he’s doing OK in a team that needs a couple of mature mids to take some heat off Dow, Walsh, Fisher, Samo ...

He'll learn plenty in the 2s - a bit of extra time to get the kicking better, for starters!