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Topic: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (Read 835665 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1455 –
You are right Paul that being an able and competent politician should be just about the most important factor... A criteria that doesn't gift anyone the role, but can preclude people from it, but I understand how Trump was voted in and the establishment needed a wake up and it is getting it world wide.
Where the governments have become complacent to the needs of the people and the people are saying they won't take it anymore. They won't allow governments to rip up what they have built their lives building.

I think an anti-establishment vote can though serve a real purpose and it might even do that in this case as well, if it doesn't bring down the US in the process, which is a serious possibility.. Or bring the world to war.

Hilary was an awful choice for president, so awful that to many people they would rather take the shake up and turmoil than to have her in the Oval Office. I wouldn't have wanted to vote for her either if I stayed there and I would only vote Democrat.

The perfect scenario is that Trump is impeached or resigns from office soon, before too much damage is done. Someone (anyone sensible) takes over from him to see out the term and both parties take something from this. I hope the Democrats take from it that they need an alternative nominee and the Republicans... well most are inbred so I am not sure they will learn much, but anything is possible.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1456 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Fitness for office, ability to lead, actually being a professional politician (as opposed to a professional clown) are all the types of things voters ought be considering when they vote. I never liked Hilary, but she is infinitely more qualified to be President than Trump, and would do a much better job. The big FU is cheap satisfaction that rarely works.

She's a crazy neo-con, a war monger. Evil personified. A New World Order type, as was Obama sadly.

That said, Trump now seems to be (largely) playing to the same songbook?
Finals, then 4 in a row!
 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1457 –
Quote from: mateinone – on
You are right Paul that being an able and competent politician should be just about the most important factor... A criteria that doesn't gift anyone the role, but can preclude people from it, but I understand how Trump was voted in and the establishment needed a wake up and it is getting it world wide.
Where the governments have become complacent to the needs of the people and the people are saying they won't take it anymore. They won't allow governments to rip up what they have built their lives building.

I think an anti-establishment vote can though serve a real purpose and it might even do that in this case as well, if it doesn't bring down the US in the process, which is a serious possibility.. Or bring the world to war.

Hilary was an awful choice for president, so awful that to many people they would rather take the shake up and turmoil than to have her in the Oval Office. I wouldn't have wanted to vote for her either if I stayed there and I would only vote Democrat.

The perfect scenario is that Trump is impeached or resigns from office soon, before too much damage is done. Someone (anyone sensible) takes over from him to see out the term and both parties take something from this. I hope the Democrats take from it that they need an alternative nominee and the Republicans... well most are inbred so I am not sure they will learn much, but anything is possible.

I liked Bernie Sanders. And whilst i was no Hilary fan, she was at least aware of the significance of office.

If the establishment must be sent a message, this is a pretty severe way of doing it.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1458 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
She's a crazy neo-con, a war monger. Evil personified. A New World Order type, as was Obama sadly.

That said, Trump now seems to be (largely) playing to the same songbook?

see my reply #442.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1459 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
She's a crazy neo-con, a war monger. Evil personified. A New World Order type, as was Obama sadly.

That said, Trump now seems to be (largely) playing to the same songbook?

That is so off the charts it is not funny...
There is nothing to back up most of that name calling, particularly towards Obama who could hardly be consider a war monger.

I think history would look back actually well on Obama. He won't be remembered as a great president and he won't be remembered as a bad president.
I think he will be remembered as a diplomatic effective president.

Looking at his rankings done by 3 major polls to date that had him listed as an option (2 were during his term in office) show the following average ranking going back over the last 50 years. (Obama was the 44th President, but 43rd individual)
That ranks Obama behind Reagan and Clinton and a little ahead of Bush Senior, with Ford, Carter, Nixon and Bush Jnr a long way behind.
I probably would have ranked him 3rd or 4th myself... Where do you think he stands in that group?

As for Trump... I suspect he will poll as one of the worst 3 presidents in history in every major poll going forward

PresidentSiena
 2010		APSA
2015		C-SPAN
2017		Average
Nixon30342830.67
Ford28242525.67
Carter32262628
Reagan18110912.67
Bush Snr22172019.67
Clinton1381512
Bush Jnr39353335.67
Obama15181215
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1460 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I liked Bernie Sanders. And whilst i was no Hilary fan, she was at least aware of the significance of office.

If the establishment must be sent a message, this is a pretty severe way of doing it.

It is, but it is almost what is needed at times.
Take the French Revolution.. Was that a good thing?
Well in the immediate aftermath, almost certainly no...
There was the Reign of Terror to follow as a direct result and absolute chaos, but in the long run.. yes.
The country and it's people were better off.

It can also backfire and some would suggest the Russian Revolution is an example, with the oppression potentially the power corrupting Lenin (and more significantly Stalin) so that the people were more oppressed than they were under Tsarist rule.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1461 –
Quote from: mateinone – on
It is, but it is almost what is needed at times.
Take the French Revolution.. Was that a good thing?
Well in the immediate aftermath, almost certainly no...
There was the Reign of Terror to follow as a direct result and absolute chaos, but in the long run.. yes.
The country and it's people were better off.

It can also backfire and some would suggest the Russian Revolution is an example, with the oppression potentially the power corrupting Lenin (and more significantly Stalin) so that the people were more oppressed than they were under Tsarist rule.

Fair points MIO, and I agree with both examples. Some say (and I agree) that the Russian Revolution dealt socialism a severe blow, from which it has yet to recover. If socialism means anything, it means worker control over the means of production. This was never achieved under Lenin. The Leninist school of thought was actually pretty anti worker. His approach was that you had the smart guys (Lenin etc. ) who were supposed to lead the dumb Slavs to a better future. In fact Lenin acted pretty quickly in stamping out worker unions etc. People who look at Russia as proof that Socialism is bad completely miss the point IMO.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1462 –
Yeah it is a topic I am fairly interested in and I am a fan of Lenin (to a degree...), but he was completely ineffectual as a leader and you are right in saying that Russia never achieved or come close to achieving the goal they set out to achieve when they first set out to overthrow the monarchy.

I won't stray too far off topic, but I think Lenin genuinely wanted to achieve a Utopian world where the collective worked for each other, with all equal etc when he went down the path and I admire his determination in setting his life on that course, but (in a way similar to Lech Walesa in Poland), he was far better at inspiring and achieving revolution, than he was in ruling.

I don't know there has even been a country ruled on true socialist principles and I don't know that there ever will be. But... I think that is as far off the Trump topic as I will go :)
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1465 –
Quote from: mateinone – on
Yeah it is a topic I am fairly interested in and I am a fan of Lenin (to a degree...), but he was completely ineffectual as a leader and you are right in saying that Russia never achieved or come close to achieving the goal they set out to achieve when they first set out to overthrow the monarchy.

I won't stray too far off topic, but I think Lenin genuinely wanted to achieve a Utopian world where the collective worked for each other, with all equal etc when he went down the path and I admire his determination in setting his life on that course, but (in a way similar to Lech Walesa in Poland), he was far better at inspiring and achieving revolution, than he was in ruling.

I don't know there has even been a country ruled on true socialist principles and I don't know that there ever will be. But... I think that is as far off the Trump topic as I will go :)

Some historians believe that Lenin was Jewish and a he, and the Russian Revolution, were primarily part of Zionist plan to undermine the christian west and achieve dominance. 
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1466 –
Yep, bad news for Trump. Special Counsel are like runaway trains - once they get under way, you never know where they'll end up.  For instance, the Republicans appointed Ken Starr to look into the Whitewater land deal and suggestion that there was something fishy about the death of Vince Foster.  That was a bust, but along the way Starr started looking into Clinton's alleged sexual misconduct with women.  That ended up with Clinton impeached over lying about Monica Lewinsky. In other words, they are much harder to control than Royal Commissioners who can often be forced to ignore embarrassing issues by restricting their terms of reference

Trump can sack a Special Counsel but sacking Archibald Cox, the special counsel investigating Watergate, didn't do Nixon much good.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1467 –
Do you have some sources?

In all the readings I have done I have never seen anything to suggest his actions where inspired by the Zionists. Trotsky was of course Jewish, but again I don't think his actions were aimed at creating any sort of Jewish state, which Russia would not ever have become even if it was an intent.

The primary motivation in starting Lenin down this course was the assassination of his brother after his attempted assassination of Alexander III.

I have read some far fetched things, but I would be really interested to know which historians (as opposed to crackpots) do claim his actions where part of this greater Zionist movement.

Oh, any reference to Lenin having a Jewish heritage doesn't support his actions therefore naturally being for Zionists aims.

Perhaps another topic for Lenin/Russia/Revolutions etc?  ;D
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1468 –
Others have already linked and referenced the material, but yes Trump looks to be in a lot of trouble at the moment, the walls are closing in fast... Does he jump or is he pushed? That seems to be the biggest question at the moment
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #1469 –
The reaction to the appointment is mixed although no one has anything less than the highest regard for Mueller.

The immediate effect may be to kill off public hearings.  For instance, it looked like Comey was to testify in open session in Congress and his memos were going to be subpoenad.  That was likely to be massive as Comey would have made public any attempts Trump may have made to protect Flynn.  It seems that it's now likely that Comey will decline to testify at the request of his old mate Mueller.  Everyone seems to believe that Mueller's investigation will maintain absolute secrecy during its investigations.  And at the end of the day, Mueller will either say indictments should follow or that there will be no indictments.  In other words, there will be no big press conference like the one Comey held. Some believe, though, that he might send a final report to Congress as Starr and other Special Counsel did.

The Democrats want a select committee which will look into the wider issue of Russian interference (as with the Select Committee into Watergate).

Republican members of Congress will probably be the happiest as they're no longer being called on to do something and, at least in the short term, the public revelations will slow down.  They can now restrict congressional hearings out of supposed deference to Mueller's investigation.

On the other hand, Mueller will be able to command far greater resources than the Congressional investigations that are currently under way.