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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4680 –
Quote from: LP – on
Before people take a side in this debate....

I think that taking sides is the problem....
Why does there have to be a side.
Both 'teams' are right into the blame game here, and both lay the reponsibility for the assassination at the other.
On one hand there is a fair bit of "He got what  he deserved", "Live by the sword etc" from one side, and in reponse to that the other group is taking these comments and "naming and shaming" and as a result putting a target on their backs.

I suspect there's also a fair bit of doubt about some of the things being posted online, as tampering with video and photograph has reached a new levels of deception, especially with some of the AI stuff we're seeing.
It's hard to know what is real and what is not.
It's hard to know whether quotes attributed to people are accurate, or half truths....or just made up to make them look bad.

A lot of this still seems a bit odd and the full story of motivation, or whether there were others involved is still to be determined.

We tend to think of this 'left' and 'right' debate as a straight line spectrum
To me it's more like a "ring"
On one side of the ring are sensible people with open minds and a fair bit of tolerance to opposing points of view.
You can go 'left' or you can go 'right' but eventually you'll reach the other side of the ring...and that's where the 'haters' and 'nutjobs' live.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4681 –
The MAGA crew went the earlier crow on the latest assassin, claiming trans, claiming leftie, etc., etc., and it turns out he is another fundamentalist Christian gun nut and the exact opposite of what MAGA claim, he's basically one of their own, yet another one!

No wonder RedTrump has gone relatively quiet, but can you make sense of the various war cries?

Is someone in the hard right lunitocracy betting that the biggest losers in a civil war will be the minorities?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4682 –
Quote from: LP – on
The MAGA crew went the earlier crow on the latest assassin, claiming trans, claiming leftie, etc., etc., and it turns out he is another fundamentalist Christian gun nut and the exact opposite of what MAGA claim, he's basically one of their own, yet another one!

Is he though?
I don't think we know yet what his make-up is.
It sounds from initial reports that it's a pretty complex and sometimes conflicting one.
Were his beliefs a rebellion to his parental upbringing.
Was he recently radicalised.
While we're aware of his parent's affiliations and beliefs, it's not clear what his political beliefs were other than he was triggered by the things Kirk was saying.
It's very much a wait and see.
The difference to the Trump assassination attempt is that Robinson is still alive so there's a chance to find out "why?"

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4683 –
Im going to ignore the politics for a moment.

We have raised a society where "you cant say that".

Is this potentially the reaction?  People feel a bit cornered so they take matters into their own hands?

Im not sure.  Thats not to condone these actions, but once upon a time words were not violence like they are today.  Does that mean meeting words with violence could be justified?

I dont necessarily think so, but people who might act like this by shooting someone they disagree with might?


The conversation needs to be a bit more philosophical than catigorical.  Sometimes you can entertain an idea without accepting it.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4684 –
Quote from: LP – on
The MAGA crew went the earlier crow on the latest assassin, claiming trans, claiming leftie, etc., etc., and it turns out he is another fundamentalist Christian gun nut and the exact opposite of what MAGA claim, he's basically one of their own, yet another one!

No wonder RedTrump has gone relatively quiet, but can you make sense of the various war cries?

Is someone in the hard right lunitocracy betting that the biggest losers in a civil war will be the minorities?

From the latest reports I think you have gone too early now lol.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4685 –
At this point in time, taking the sum total of information available, the only reasonable conclusion is that the shooter was politically incoherent, either because the information is unreliable (for a host of reasons) or because he was a confused young man with no clear political position.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4686 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: LP – on
Before people take a side in this debate....

I think that taking sides is the problem....
Why does there have to be a side.
Both 'teams' are right into the blame game here, and both lay the reponsibility for the assassination at the other.
On one hand there is a fair bit of "He got what  he deserved", "Live by the sword etc" from one side, and in reponse to that the other group is taking these comments and "naming and shaming" and as a result putting a target on their backs.

I suspect there's also a fair bit of doubt about some of the things being posted online, as tampering with video and photograph has reached a new levels of deception, especially with some of the AI stuff we're seeing.
It's hard to know what is real and what is not.
It's hard to know whether quotes attributed to people are accurate, or half truths....or just made up to make them look bad.

A lot of this still seems a bit odd and the full story of motivation, or whether there were others involved is still to be determined.

We tend to think of this 'left' and 'right' debate as a straight line spectrum
To me it's more like a "ring"
On one side of the ring are sensible people with open minds and a fair bit of tolerance to opposing points of view.
You can go 'left' or you can go 'right' but eventually you'll reach the other side of the ring...and that's where the 'haters' and 'nutjobs' live.

Now ya talkin' Principal LODS.

When we're glued to, or rusted onto, a political ideology we'll shoehorn just about any event, instantly, to suit our heavy bias/prejudice. And in the 'fullness of time' likely come out looking like a goose.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4687 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
At this point in time, taking the sum total of information available, the only reasonable conclusion is that the shooter was politically incoherent, either because the information is unreliable (for a host of reasons) or because he was a confused young man with no clear political position.

I suspect that’s a fairly common characterisation of most school shooters.

It’s interesting that the engravings on the cartridge cases that were originally identified as pro trans, pro gay and anti-fascist are mostly video game references and, if anything, anti-gay.  The video game references suggest divorced from reality.

The degree of difficulty in pulling off a fatal hit at that range shouldn’t be underestimated, particularly when the shooter was in an elevated position relative to the victim.

Robinson is clearly a very competent marksman.  The photographs of him at ranges and with different weapons, as well as the engraved cartridge cases, suggest an unhealthy interest in firearms, at least by our standards.

Throw in his religion, video game fascination, educational experiences, and the increasingly demeaning and dehumanising political rhetoric and actions, and you have a problem.

"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4688 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
From the latest reports I think you have gone too early now lol.
From what I've read so far MAGA have f0rked up the early claims regarding transgender, et al., and rather than admitting a mistake they are now just going harder repeating the unsupported claims. There is already a bunch of published and obviously fake videos, manifestos, doctored photographs, etc., etc.. It's a repeat of the MAGA Birther conspiracy tactics, when you are wrong double down in spite of the glaring evidence to the contrary!

Other actors in this debate, like the NRA, seem to be actively and deliberately muddying the waters, it's truly bizarre behaviour.

There is no high ground on either side of this debate, both sides are equally wrong and that is the primary take away point.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4689 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I suspect that’s a fairly common characterisation of most school shooters.
Retrospectively what we know regarding the politics of most if not all of the various recent political assassination events, the claims by MAGA of some sort of leftist conspiracy to persecute MAGA is almost 100% incorrect. It's much closer to be the exact opposite, in that it appears many are disavowed right wing extremists who have turned on the group they previously felt aligned to.

I think the key word here is extreme, it appears that even for the hard right or left these individuals are beyond the norm.

But this is what my signature states, it's always been that way!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4690 –
A fish rots at the head.  And two fish rot at two heads at the same time.

In the USA, there is no semblance of respect for someone with an opposing view, because that is the example set by their so-called leaders. 

Both sides of politics in the US have fostered a growing level of hatred for the opposition - the leaders call each other 'mentally deranged', 'retarded' and 'bad people', among other far worse things. There is often inferred acceptance of physical harm in some of the messaging.   It has certainly gotten worse with the advent of Donald, who uses public insults and belittlement as his primary campaign tool, but the Democrats are no saints either.

This then feeds the rhetoric of both sides of the media, which unleash attacks on various public figures based on ideology and viewpoint.  Now there is a population that is increasingly polarised because they only seek and listen to messages that fit their world view.  Mix in conspiracy theories via unchecked social media, marginalised individuals with an axe to grind, and ready access to weapons, and there is a shooting frenzy ready to happen.

Both right- and left-wing politicians and public figures have been murdered in recent times, so neither side can claim 'victim' status.

But until the leaders of both political persuasion say 'enough is enough', and start showing a level of respect they expect the whole country to uphold, things will only get worse.

I fear Australia is going down the same track, as we become increasingly influenced by media-driven one-liners and cheap-shot journalists who no longer report news, only their agenda-laden opinions.
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4691 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
I fear Australia is going down the same track, as we become increasingly influenced by media-driven one-liners and cheap-shot journalists who no longer report news, only their agenda-laden opinions.
I'm not so pessimistic, I think the extremists are still clearly in the minority pretty much everywhere globally, it's the media representation that is unbalanced.

The problem is the inaction of the silent majority, it needs to vote with it's wallet, it is the only thing that modern media understand. Stop advertising on their platforms, stop buying what they peddle, and the executives will get the message.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4692 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: tonyo – on
I fear Australia is going down the same track, as we become increasingly influenced by media-driven one-liners and cheap-shot journalists who no longer report news, only their agenda-laden opinions.
I'm not so pessimistic, I think the extremists are still clearly in the minority pretty much everywhere globally, it's the media representation that is unbalanced.

The problem is the inaction of the silent majority, it needs to vote with it's wallet, it is the only thing that modern media understand. Stop advertising on their platforms, stop buying what they peddle, and the executives will get the message.

I'm of a similar view LP.

I think that incidents like the Porepunkah tragedy and the attacks on synagogues, Jewish businesses, Camp Sovereignty, etc are aberrations by a tiny minority that's manipulated by bad actors.  On the whole, we're a relatively tolerant bunch who can conduct political discourse without resorting to name calling.

Peter Dutton's concession speech and the remarks he directed to Albo and Ali France are good examples of that.  And then there's the fact that Dutton and Albo are good mates, despite having opposing political views.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4693 –
I think if we focus on the main topic of this thread, which is essentially Trump and America post 2016, we need to be careful about equivocating and assuming some kind of both sides equivalence. The data make it pretty clear that the Trump Republicans are much worse rhetorically and practically than the Democrats.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4694 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I think if we focus on the main topic of this thread, which is essentially Trump and America post 2016, we need to be careful about equivocating and assuming some kind of both sides equivalence. The data make it pretty clear that the Trump Republicans are much worse rhetorically and practically than the Democrats.

I'm pretty sure most folks with a Democratic leaning would agree with that assessment Paul.
Just as most people with a Republican leaning would think the opposite.
And there lies the problem
Both sides are one-eyed and blinded by their own perceptions to some of the things that are actually being said by their 'team'.

It's been confrontational since Trump's first term.
Few on any side have put any effort at all into toning down some of the rhetoric.
They say the words, but in the next sentence they pass a judgement that is likely to incite a negative response.