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Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #60 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
The death penalty does nothing to deter people who commit these sorts of crimes - all it does it let them go out in a blaze of "in-glory" and then some other whacko reads about it and says "hey that was cool - I'd like to try that!". 

If the death penalty worked so well, the places in the world that still allow it shouldn't have any murders?

Perhaps we should be tackling the crap that makes them murderers in the first place......

Whilst I agree that the death penalty is not the answer (or even an answer) i think it's hard to draw out one single facet of a complex society. Apart from the U.S., many of the countries with the death penalty are beset with a variety of issues that muddy the waters when trying to analyse the effective of that strategy.

I like with your last sentence. Many of these offenders are devoid of hope and meaning long before these atrocities are committed. The death penalty would not register on their radar at all.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #62 –
The education system isn't designed to raise children, parents still have some responsibilities.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #63 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
The education system isn't designed to raise children, parents still have some responsibilities.

Most education comes from the parents. Their role is more important than any education system.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #64 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Most education comes from the parents. Their role is more important than any education system.

Yet I'm sure that good parenting would not help many ICE Addicts.

The best parents in the world are powerless against the effects of powerful psychotic substances, for many one small "try" is all it takes, loving families are being destroyed on a daily basis.

A much, much greater effort from government is required. Bring back the asylums, kit out the forces, get serious about getting control. It's mostly the criminals demanding their freedom!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #65 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
The death penalty does nothing to deter people who commit these sorts of crimes - all it does it let them go out in a blaze of "in-glory" and then some other whacko reads about it and says "hey that was cool - I'd like to try that!". 

If the death penalty worked so well, the places in the world that still allow it shouldn't have any murders?

Perhaps we should be tackling the crap that makes them murderers in the first place......
It may deter some but not all ... but it sure gets rid rid of the scum that can commit repeat murders, eg Sarah Cafferkey might still be alive today if someone had pulled the trigger or flicked the switch on that maniac Steven Hunter who was let out after murdering a 18 year girl a first time and being paroled. If that was your daughter hit with a hammer, stabbed 19 times and sliced up in a barrel you might re-think your opposition to the death penalty. As it now we have to feed and keep that maniac for the rest of his life, wasting money that could go into medicine for example to save lives...he is lucky he isnt in China now that you have mentioned other parts of the world, he would have had his useful body parts harvested before and after his execution when he murdered the first time......and a young girl would still be alive.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #66 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
The education system isn't designed to raise children, parents still have some responsibilities.

Unfortunately the education system, particularly state departments, actually do think it's their responsibility to raise children & not the parents !
Life is pain....... anyone who says differently is selling something.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #67 –
Quote from: malo – on
Unfortunately the education system, particularly state departments, actually do think it's their responsibility to raise children & not the parents !

It is the LACK OF PARENTING that is the problem.  Schools (and Education Departments) try to make up for it but can't. 

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #68 –
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot.  It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night,  they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens.  It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive.  The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago.   Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.

Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society.  It isn't that easy.  I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.

There is no easy solution to any of this,  but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #69 –
Quote from: dodge – on
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot.  It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night,  they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens.  It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive.  The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago.   Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.

Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society.  It isn't that easy.  I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.

There is no easy solution to any of this,  but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.

Very true!

Things like divorce or family trauma can send kids off the rails regardless of how hard the parents work at being good parents.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #70 –
Quote from: dodge – on
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot.  It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night,  they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens.  It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive.  The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago.   Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.

Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society.  It isn't that easy.  I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.

There is no easy solution to any of this,  but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.

My wife will attest to this Dodge. She was a high school teacher and the lack of effective parenting with some of the kids was all too apparent. This was evidenced by disruptive behaviour and other issues on which teachers had to spend valuable time, detracting from more constructive activities.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #71 –
If the government wants to fix problems with parenting, it should try and limit the people who can become parents.
Too many deadbeats are pumping out a cricket team worth of kids when they are struggling to afford their carton of durries every week.

Now i don't suspect this is an easy fix, or one that will even be attempted, but it would be an effective one.
 

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #72 –
Quote from: dodge – on
Lack of parenting is a tough one. Times have changed a lot.  It is now rare that kid get two parents at home at night,  they are more regularly coming from broken families and a constantly on their screens.  It is rare for both parents not to be working as housing (including rent) is so expensive.  The responsibility and pressure on kids is much greater than it was only 20-30 years ago.   Added to this is a rapidly changing online environment that a huge amount of parents don't understand, let alone know how to regulate with their kids.

Then we get migrants from a background that is impovished or war torn and expect them to fit into our society.  It isn't that easy.  I remember the non english speaking Greeks at primary school - it takes a generation or so to get into the swing of Australia.

There is no easy solution to any of this,  but it requires a tougher bail, parole, post release support as well as education and support of people vulnerable to the justice system.

Yes we have many more single parent families, duel income families, immigrants etc. but I taught a family of girls who on Friday nights were consistently lined up against the house passage wall and who in turn had a gun placed under their chin by their dad while he asked each one to give him a reason not to pull the trigger.  Very few worse cases I would think.  But those girls all became excellent students and great people.  It took just one parent, the mother, to put in time with them to succeed where many now fail miserably today.

Re: Melbourne CBD Incident

Reply #73 –
Quote from: chalkybill – on
Yes we have many more single parent families, duel income families, immigrants etc. but I taught a family of girls who on Friday nights were consistently lined up against the house passage wall and who in turn had a gun placed under their chin by their dad while he asked each one to give him a reason not to pull the trigger.  Very few worse cases I would think.  But those girls all became excellent students and great people.  It took just one parent, the mother, to put in time with them to succeed where many now fail miserably today.

 :o

That certainly places my childhood into perspective!
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball