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Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #46
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

I think its been mentioned earlier in this thread. But if you go through puberty as a male without taking any hormone blockers, you get all the advantages of that. Eg excess testosterone/growth as a result. THEN you transition.

So you 100% get an advantage if you are a 'later' transition by comparison to if you transition before puberty.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #47
I guess the key is the muscular development.
Compare the basketballer to Hannah and you can see the difference in definition.
A female body wont achieve that naturally.
Once again compare female bodybuilders in "Natural" competitions with those in "Free for all, not tested strictly" and you can see it's not the same.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #48
I think its been mentioned earlier in this thread. But if you go through puberty as a male without taking any hormone blockers, you get all the advantages of that. Eg excess testosterone/growth as a result. THEN you transition.

So you 100% get an advantage if you are a 'later' transition by comparison to if you transition before puberty.

I see. Thanks for that. Then IMO, she should definitely not be allowed to play.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #49
I guess the key is the muscular development.
Compare the basketballer to Hannah and you can see the difference in definition.
A female body wont achieve that naturally.
Once again compare female bodybuilders in "Natural" competitions with those in "Free for all, not tested strictly" and you can see it's not the same.

Fair points lods.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #50
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

But who makes the call on  what the gender at birth was?

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #51
What a vexing issue. A real 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' thing.

You'd love to see Moucey given the chance to do what she loves, but she does have an unfair advantage, but if you point out that advantage... you're a pr1ck, if you advocate for fairness and inclusion her on-field opponents can suffer. There must be another solution but the people in each corner of the debate are equally vehement... but it seems to me it aint an 'either/or' situation. In fact, I give up!! :-[
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #52
Would you want your daughter getting pole axed by Heather......?.....no way would I allow mine to be out there playing vs a man sized and more importantly hardened body..
Yep Mason Cox is a way bigger unit than most and Shane Mumford likes cleaning up other players as does Steven May but the other footballers in the male AFL comp train for that physicality and harden their bodies to take it.....
The womens comp is in the embryo stage and doesnt need a wrecking ball running around injuring young ladies...when the comp has developed and turning out professional hardened bodies and every team has them then you can introduce athletes like Hannah into the game IMO....

Be like Mitchell Johnson switching gender and women cricketers facing 150k bouncers......common sense and safety has to prevail and the AFL have got this one right IMO.....

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #53
What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

Do we make exceptions for the majority to satisfy the minority, is that always to be the case?

How would you offer someone's average daughter the right to compete freely against peers of equal physicality and gender, have an equal opportunity to a professional sports career and without increased risk?

Will you volunteer to make the call if someone's granddaughter has her head caved in by an accidental on field collision with someone possessing a three decade old fully developed almost 200cm x 100kg male skeletal system! Sure I realise it might not happen, but shouldn't it be like The Doctor, do no harm!

What a vexing issue. A real 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' thing.

You'd love to see Moucey given the chance to do what she loves, but she does have an unfair advantage, but if you point out that advantage... you're a pr1ck, if you advocate for fairness and inclusion her on-field opponents can suffer. There must be another solution but the people in each corner of the debate are equally vehement... but it seems to me it aint an 'either/or' situation. In fact, I give up!! :-[

Life's tough, decisions we make have an effect on our lives, but that doesn't mean we owe Hannah Mouncey anything as compensation for the decisions she made in free will that have delivered her a tougher path than some! Certainly our daughters and grandaughters should not have to pay the price for our desire to have a clear conscience!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #54
But is her size the critical issue, or the fact that she used to be a male ? If it's the former, what about Shane Mumford v Marc Murphy ? You can't discriminate in the men's game because someone is too big, or too strong. The fact that Daisy Pearce may be a typical size female AFL footballer and Murphy an atypically small male player is not the issue IMO.

The critical issue is I am an average male, and Hannah is an above average sized former male now wanting to play against females.

The muddying of this issue of Marc Murphy vs shame Mumford is ridiculous.

Murphy's small by afl sizes but not abnormally so.  There's plenty of shorter players as well as Murphy sized ones.  Likewise Mumford is large but not abnormally so and he is not a rarity either.

Hannah Mouncey is abnormally large for a female, and is going to have a strength advantage that mkst females, not even the abnormal ones, simply won't ever have over their counterparts.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #55
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

I think the resident homophobes will say yes PaulP, because that’s really their issue, the rest is window dressing.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #56
To me, it's black and white.  No way should she be permitted to play in the competition

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #57
There are a lot of interesting contradictions in this debate.

For example, the arguments are aggressive that a transition athlete is equivalent or the same as their other athletes in their new gender. Yet those transitioned athletes still like to use and identify with the term Transgender, a label invented and championed to identify themselves as different!

I read an article a month or two back about an LGBTIA billionaire is funding Chinese researchers to "solve the problem" of transitioned individuals giving birth. In the meantime it's illegal for stem cells to be used to cure illness or re-grow a damaged organ!

It's hard to take the debates seriously when an issue like transitioned athletes playing sport is painted by both sides as a line in the sand! :o

Ironically, to me it would seem fairer to allow Mouncey to play AFL, than it would be to allow Mouncey to play AFLW! I realise it's a simple measure, but it's hard to argue against!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #58
Maybe the days of gender differentiated sport are numbered and competitions will be populated by teams/individuals which compete purely on the basis of skills and physical strength/endurance? Wonder how that would pan out especially in terms of encouraging across the board participation?