Skip to main content
Topic: Hannah Mouncey (Read 13394 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #60
Maybe. I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't object to her because she's too big. I would assume that her unfair advantage arises from some remnant, leftover vestiges of masculinity, e.g muscle mass, size etc., that hormone therapy, gender reassignment etc. can't completely remove, and this is the real issue.

What about 2 females, one a bodybuilder, the other a basket baller - both born female, one significantly taller, the other significantly stronger than most female players - should they be refused permission to play AFL/VFLW ?

I think that’s right Paul and that seems to be the line the AFL and some other sports are taking and, as we all know, size doesn’t matter  ;)

Interestingly, Caster Semenya, who has been nominated for the IAAF female athlete of the year, may not be allowed to compete because of her atypically high testosterone levels.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #61
We're living in times where there is an admirable effort to increase awareness and accommodate a lot more than in past years and decades. This applies to many things in life. But there still needs to be healthy, conscious, intelligent boundaries.

Many folks are asking, and quite rightly so, 'how would you like Hannah competing against your daughter?' Well, you wouldn't like it. But if we ask that question we also must ask the question, 'what would I feel/think if Hannah was my daughter and she wanted to play footy?' Remember, this is not a whim, she is passionate about playing. I guess the first thing I would say to her is, 'please be prepared to experience first hand the worst and best of human nature, in varying proportions. You'll be hated, misunderstood, ridiculed and generally mocked/abused. As a father I don't want to see you hurt but I also want you to be happy and to support you in the things you love to do.' Then we'd talk.

Hannah's plight is significantly compounded by the fact that she was a big bloke. Had she been 165cm and 55kgs as a bloke, or even 178 and 70 there would likely not be the, understandable, outcry that there is. I guess a very crude comparison might be allowing Maxon Cox to play with elevated (above the rest) testosterone levels.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #62
Hannah's plight is significantly compounded by the fact that she was a big bloke. Had she been 165cm and 55kgs as a bloke, or even 178 and 70 there would likely not be the, understandable, outcry that there is. I guess a very crude comparison might be allowing Maxon Cox to play with elevated (above the rest) testosterone levels.

Hannah is not average size for even a man, and that is important.

Ignoring Hannah's specific case, forum posters deride my concerns that if a female sport becomes wealthy enough there will be males willing to transition just for profit. But the naysayers ignore history, East Germany, Russia, and China have proven there are no limits to what people will do even at a state controlled level let alone leaving the decision up to a bunch of capitalists or crooks!

There is no case by case solution to this which is implementable at all levels of the sport. This is why I think Hannah should be permitted to play AFL, VFL or any other adult male level competition. In those competitions she requires no special monitoring of testosterone or other bio-markers, whatever those tests may be even if specifically cherry-picked for her case, she can  to enter the playing field in her natural state whatever that may be! That is implementable at all levels.

In any case I already know of transitioned individuals playing local football, but equality only exists when that occurs in one specific direction!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #63
We're living in times where there is an admirable effort to increase awareness and accommodate a lot more than in past years and decades. This applies to many things in life. But there still needs to be healthy, conscious, intelligent boundaries.

Many folks are asking, and quite rightly so, 'how would you like Hannah competing against your daughter?' Well, you wouldn't like it. But if we ask that question we also must ask the question, 'what would I feel/think if Hannah was my daughter and she wanted to play footy?' Remember, this is not a whim, she is passionate about playing. I guess the first thing I would say to her is, 'please be prepared to experience first hand the worst and best of human nature, in varying proportions. You'll be hated, misunderstood, ridiculed and generally mocked/abused. As a father I don't want to see you hurt but I also want you to be happy and to support you in the things you love to do.' Then we'd talk.

Hannah's plight is significantly compounded by the fact that she was a big bloke. Had she been 165cm and 55kgs as a bloke, or even 178 and 70 there would likely not be the, understandable, outcry that there is. I guess a very crude comparison might be allowing Maxon Cox to play with elevated (above the rest) testosterone levels.

I would have thought that being comfortable in your own body is part of your identity, and not through hormone therapies or plastic surgery.  We have been made the way we are.  We feel what are human emotions, not male or female, and no matter how much we fight against our body's biology, how we identify, is largely subjective.

They were born in the skin they were born in for a purpose.  That purpose is to accept oneself and their imperfections and not simply shed one social construct for another.

FWIW, here is the definition of a male, and here is the definition of a female according to the oxford dictionary:

Male: adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
    ‘male children’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of men or male animals.
    ‘a deep male voice’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) bearing stamens but lacking functional pistils.
1.3 (of a fitting or part of machinery) manufactured to fit inside a corresponding female part.
‘the valve has standard half-inch threaded male ends’


Female:
adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
    ‘a herd of female deer’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of women or female animals.
    ‘a female audience’
    ‘female names’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) having a pistil but no stamens.
1.3 (of parts of machinery, fittings, etc.) manufactured hollow so that a corresponding male part can be inserted.


For bonus points:

Transgender: adjective

    Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.


Identity:

noun

    1. The fact of being who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he knows the identity of the bombers’
    mass noun ‘she believes she is the victim of mistaken identity’

    1.1 The characteristics determining who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he wanted to develop a more distinctive Scottish Tory identity’

1.2 as modifier (of an object) serving to establish who the holder, owner, or wearer is by bearing their name and often other details such as a signature or photograph.
‘an identity card’

2. A close similarity or affinity.
‘an identity between the company's own interests and those of the local community’

3. Mathematics
A transformation that leaves an object unchanged.

    3.1 An element of a set which, if combined with another element by a specified binary operation, leaves that element unchanged.

4.Mathematics
The equality of two expressions for all values of the quantities expressed by letters, or an equation expressing this, e.g. (x + 1)² = x² + 2x + 1.



To answer your question about Hannah being my child (not my daughter), I would encourage Hannah not to travel down a road that argues with the unchangeable.  Some people's unchangeable varies.  Multiple Sclerosis, Motor Neuron Disorder, Cancer, down syndrome, asthbergers, asthma and the one recurring theme I see in the world, is that these people only find happiness when they stop fighting against their human nature and find a way to roll with the punches.  There is a liberation that comes from accepting that you cannot change the unchangeable but make the most of it and in the case of illness, fight against it until it kills you. 

This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson


Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #65
This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

Perhaps the movement has some 'questionable' people jumping on board, but i wouldn't go that far exactly.

How about people who are born with both bits? What side of the fence do we put them?

Its not as simple as you describe....but its not as complex as some make out either.

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #66
I would have thought that being comfortable in your own body is part of your identity, and not through hormone therapies or plastic surgery.  We have been made the way we are.  We feel what are human emotions, not male or female, and no matter how much we fight against our body's biology, how we identify, is largely subjective.

They were born in the skin they were born in for a purpose.  That purpose is to accept oneself and their imperfections and not simply shed one social construct for another.

FWIW, here is the definition of a male, and here is the definition of a female according to the oxford dictionary:

Male: adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
    ‘male children’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of men or male animals.
    ‘a deep male voice’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) bearing stamens but lacking functional pistils.
1.3 (of a fitting or part of machinery) manufactured to fit inside a corresponding female part.
‘the valve has standard half-inch threaded male ends’


Female:
adjective

    1. Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.
    ‘a herd of female deer’

    1.1 Relating to or characteristic of women or female animals.
    ‘a female audience’
    ‘female names’

1.2 (of a plant or flower) having a pistil but no stamens.
1.3 (of parts of machinery, fittings, etc.) manufactured hollow so that a corresponding male part can be inserted.


For bonus points:

Transgender: adjective

    Denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex.


Identity:

noun

    1. The fact of being who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he knows the identity of the bombers’
    mass noun ‘she believes she is the victim of mistaken identity’

    1.1 The characteristics determining who or what a person or thing is.
    ‘he wanted to develop a more distinctive Scottish Tory identity’

1.2 as modifier (of an object) serving to establish who the holder, owner, or wearer is by bearing their name and often other details such as a signature or photograph.
‘an identity card’

2. A close similarity or affinity.
‘an identity between the company's own interests and those of the local community’

3. Mathematics
A transformation that leaves an object unchanged.

    3.1 An element of a set which, if combined with another element by a specified binary operation, leaves that element unchanged.

4.Mathematics
The equality of two expressions for all values of the quantities expressed by letters, or an equation expressing this, e.g. (x + 1)² = x² + 2x + 1.



To answer your question about Hannah being my child (not my daughter), I would encourage Hannah not to travel down a road that argues with the unchangeable.  Some people's unchangeable varies.  Multiple Sclerosis, Motor Neuron Disorder, Cancer, down syndrome, asthbergers, asthma and the one recurring theme I see in the world, is that these people only find happiness when they stop fighting against their human nature and find a way to roll with the punches.  There is a liberation that comes from accepting that you cannot change the unchangeable but make the most of it and in the case of illness, fight against it until it kills you. 

This transgenderism is simply another social construct.

To a degree, yes. But there are many folks who choose to fight and sometimes it is these folks who are catalysts for social change or force science to research/experiment further. We should respect the choice of the individual.

For my own part, yes, I accept I have PTSD and understand that it can't be magically waved away, but I am always on the alert for other ways to deal with it... so, yes, I 'roll with the punches' but don't surrender. Again, it's not an either/or. You can accept AND fight.

(not sure I would be putting transgenderism in with MS, MND, aspbergers (autism), cancer and the like, it aint a disease... not sure autism is either, but that's another discussion entirely).

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #67
Perhaps the movement has some 'questionable' people jumping on board, but i wouldn't go that far exactly.

How about people who are born with both bits? What side of the fence do we put them?

Its not as simple as you describe....but its not as complex as some make out either.

These people are hermaphrodite.  They don't fit into the transgender construct.
To a degree, yes. But there are many folks who choose to fight and sometimes it is these folks who are catalysts for social change or force science to research/experiment further. We should respect the choice of the individual.

For my own part, yes, I accept I have PTSD and understand that it can't be magically waved away, but I am always on the alert for other ways to deal with it... so, yes, I 'roll with the punches' but don't surrender. Again, it's not an either/or. You can accept AND fight.

(not sure I would be putting transgenderism in with MS, MND, aspbergers (autism), cancer and the like, it aint a disease... not sure autism is either, but that's another discussion entirely).



I'm not putting transgender into that category.

I'm putting diseases and disorders, in the realm of the unchangeable.  You can fight it all you like but you can't change what's a part of you.

Sex or gender is unchangeable.  Hannah can get surgery but she will always be a male.  This isn't healthy.  Shouldn't be encouraged and the statistics are damning regarding the prospects of trans people once they undergo reassignment surgery.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #68
These people are hermaphrodite.  They don't fit into the transgender construct.
I'm not putting transgender into that category.

I'm putting diseases and disorders, in the realm of the unchangeable.  You can fight it all you like but you can't change what's a part of you.

Sex or gender is unchangeable.  Hannah can get surgery but she will always be a male.  This isn't healthy.  Shouldn't be encouraged and the statistics are damning regarding the prospects of trans people once they undergo reassignment surgery.

Sorry Thry but that's exactly what transgender is.

I don't believe that Hannah has had surgery but that's not the point.  She is female in all respects apart from her genitalia and testosterone levels and it's not healthy to force folk like Hannah to repress their sense of personal identity and gender because it may not meet the binary gender models of the Abrahamic religions.

I wonder how this issue would play out if Native American culture had prevailed and up to five genders were universally recognised  :-\
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #69
Chris Judd sums it up best.

Quote
HANNAH Mouncey has hit out at footy legend Chris Judd for his outspoken criticism of her admission to the AFLW.

The transgender footballer was sensationally blocked from registering for the 2017 AFLW Draft following an AFL backflip.

Judd was vocal supporter of the decision, following concern from officials that Mouncey would have had a physical advantage that would have been unfair on the other female competitors.

“It’s an issue that’s got to be tackled with sensitivity because of the personal journey the transgender community goes through which is something we’ll forever find hard to understand,” Judd said on Channel 9’s Footy Classified two weeks ago.

“That doesn’t mean that it should change the fairness of women’s sport or potentially the safety if you’re playing a contact sport.

“Purely, the level of testosterone that transgender women grow up with for 20-plus years puts them at a distinct advantage to put down muscle bulk, create power that other females athletes don’t have and I think the AFL were right in not allowing Hannah to play in the AFLW.”

Mouncey has held back from responding to Judd, but on Monday revealed the toll his comments took on her.

It came as the 28-year-old confirmed she will play in the VFLW with the Darebin Falcons this season and will again consider nominating for the AFLW draft in 2018.

However, the outspoken comments surrounding her VFLW season almost convinced her to give up the sport. 

“The fact my AFLW draft issue was brought up again on Footy Classified, and the comments Chris Judd made with absolutely no understanding whatsoever of the situation, really did have more of an impact on me than it otherwise might have before,” Mouncey wrote in a column for Players Voice.

“In isolation it probably wouldn’t have mattered. But after everything that had gone on regarding the AFLW draft — and had subsequently died down — having people talking about it again was enough to tip me from wanting to play, to not.

“You take it with a grain of salt but, after a while, it does wear you down. When you hear so many people talking absolute rubbish about a situation they know nothing about, you eventually get pretty bloody sick of it.

“Some people are not willing to listen to the facts. You’re being attacked just for the sake of it.”

 
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #70
Chris Judd sums it up best.

It's a no win situation, because the facts are uncomfortable for both sides of the debate.

I think it's bad luck for Hannah, but the kids who transition pre-adult in their early teens, and not after years of training as a potential male olympic athlete, aren't going to have the same problems.

I'm not going to get into the moral, legal or religious debate about allowing teens to transition before they are even mature. But I can see the case were they would be OK to play AFLW in difference to Hannah Mouncey.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #71
Yep,  common sense says that if you "transition" after packing on size and mass you clearly have a massive physical advantage that is beyond the scope of the game.

Hard luck on this Mouncey individual but I can understand the administration's stance.

DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #72
Sorry Thry but that's exactly what transgender is.


The Oxford dictionary definition of hermaphrodite:

hermaphrodite
/həːˈmafrədʌɪt/
noun
noun: hermaphrodite; plural noun: hermaphrodites
1.
a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics, either abnormally or (in the case of some organisms) as the natural condition.
synonyms:   androgyne; More
bisexual, gynandromorph
BOTANY
a plant having stamens and pistils in the same flower.
ARCHAIC
a person or thing combining opposite qualities or characteristics.
adjective
adjective: hermaphrodite
1.
of or denoting a person, animal, or plant having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics.

Quote

I don't believe that Hannah has had surgery but that's not the point.  She is female in all respects apart from her genitalia and testosterone levels and it's not healthy to force folk like Hannah to repress their sense of personal identity and gender because it may not meet the binary gender models of the Abrahamic religions.

I wonder how this issue would play out if Native American culture had prevailed and up to five genders were universally recognised  :-\

This isn't about Abrahams religions and thats a realm where these discussions take on a life of their own.

Irrespective of that side note, I'm yet to see how rebutting centuries of knowledge with pseudo science is taking us.

FWIW I am questioning the studies resulting in transgender.  I am interested in intellectual debate regarding this phenomenon and not bigotry.  I believe that this is psychiatry and psychology failing people and society.  We are not mending broken thought processes about identity but encouraging what I would call unhealthy preoccupation with labels to take over.

We don't need more genders.  We need to break gender stereotypes and social norms to accept the grey areas as part of a spectrum of male and female.  Hermaphrodite are the only ones that revolve in male and female categories anyone else is wearing a persona.  That persona might be an identity crisis rather than anything else and it might be an unhealthy way to treat people of this nature.  Gender dysphoria is the key term here and one of the pillars it's built on usually shows that trans people are often attracted to their own sex (I.e. gay if not trans).  Hannah is a confessed lesbian meaning Hannah is attracted to women.

The mental health sphere is evolving constantly and IMHO not enough is being done to support these people and it's in the realm of entertaining the impossible IMHO.  that cannot be healthy.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #73
Yep,  common sense says that if you "transition" after packing on size and mass you clearly have a massive physical advantage that is beyond the scope of the game.

Hard luck on this Mouncey individual but I can understand the administration's stance.

The physical advantage is too great and its almost a health and safety issue......you get some slightly built girl badly hurt by Heather M and it will be straight into the courts.
Are insurers going to payout?, have the AFL created a unsafe workplace?...etc etc....
Like I said before if Mitchell Johnson was in Heather M's position would you want him bowling at 150k to women ?.......common sense has to be applied...

 

Re: Hannah Mouncey

Reply #74
The physical advantage is too great and its almost a health and safety issue......you get some slightly built girl badly hurt by Heather M and it will be straight into the courts.
Are insurers going to payout?, have the AFL created a unsafe workplace?...etc etc....
Like I said before if Mitchell Johnson was in Heather M's position would you want him bowling at 150k to women ?.......common sense has to be applied...

If some sanity does not prevail here EB this issue has the potential to kill off or at least severely curtail growth in women's footy as the bigger more powerful players get into it. The AFL need to pay careful attention and soon imo, but good luck to them trying to formulate rules.