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Re: Reset Rants

Reply #75 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Dow and Kennedy are unproven and Byrne is a turnover merchant who doesnt defend that well.....Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same....
Charlie Curnow... tick
Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet and no Robbie Gray as a half forward either.
Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed, he wants it bruise free and will need to harden up to make it...
Docherty and Williamson...agree big losses, both are top players, I really rate Williamson....usually we pick little schoolboys but he is a good size and has a go.
Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him....
SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too..
Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger fram to impact....unproven...

"Dow and Kennedy are unproven" Yes, you get that with young players, hence the need to be patient.

"Byrne tries to do too much" Again a player with less than 25 game under his belt, has good size and speed and does kick a long ball but needs time and a consistent go at it before you can really gauge his game.

"Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet" Again a young player with not many game under his belt so time is needed.

"Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed" No guarantee he won't be fixed either. Rance was ordinary for his first 4-5 seasons. It would have been interesting to see if we hadn't of moved him forward, to where he'd be now. Again still only young and is another season and a half away from having enough experience.

"Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him" Again with time he will get a better team around him. Pickett is far from a finished product with less than 15 games under his belt. 2-3 seasons.

"SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too.." I agree here to a point, he needs to be dropped and told to go hunt the ball in the 2s get the 25 possessions for a couple of weeks then bring him back.

"Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger frame to impact....unproven" Again game 3 in his career, he is 3-4 seasons away from having a real impact.

Looking at your replies EB, I wonder if you understand building through a draft. Your comments of unproven are correct but of course they are unproven as they have only just been drafted. You do draft school bpys

Dangerfield, showed glimpses during his first 5 seasons but he was never the league start that he is now. Martin, same deal, it took him several years to get his head straight and attitude right. Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Josh Kennedy, Tom Mitchell, Rory Sloane, Luke Parker....... all took 4-5 seasons plus to get their games right now AFL stars.

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

"Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same...." Could not disagree more with Dows kicking, his kicking when he's not tired is outstanding and his hands are immaculate, he is not AFL fit but why would he be? Kennedy shouldn't be playing he looks hampered by the ankle. He needs a few weeks off to get right. The game against Richmond, before he hurt his ankle I'd say he was almost best on ground for a quarter and a half. I agree he needs fitness, something that doesn't come easy with an ankle injury.

BTW Charlie is no where near a tick yet, for a tick he needs to grab the marks and kick the easy goals that he missed, but again with a couple more seasons in the gym and kicking practise I'm sure he'll get there.

As for your comment about Mills on LBJ, I reckon Mills would have him, cause he's an Aussie ;)

Bolton is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, he has very little to choose from through injury, so SPS can't get dropped, Plowman can have games off to recover and Marchbank was bought back too early, as he looked underdone. The cupboard is bare of capable bodies so we need to be patient.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #76 –
Quote from: Raydan – on
I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons.

I agree.

There was never any time-line issued by BB or other footy staff that I know of, it was always it will take as long as it takes to get 100 games into the kids. I know marketing and membership people wanted a date, but that is fanciful.

I think the main gripe supporters have at the moment is not the status of the rebuild, but the lost confidence from the flip flop approach we seem to have taken so far this year.

If they had started 2018 with the same game plan and defensive mindset as last year, scrapped a win or two then went to the overboard attacking option, a lot of this discussion wouldn't be taking place. I could easily have imagined a further 2 goal improvement on last season, and that would have got us some more wins in 2018, but maybe that is not what the club wants!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #77 –
Quote from: Raydan – on
I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

I guess the problem is we've put the ingredients in and started to heat them up...we're just not getting any of those sweet cooking smells.

The rebuild hasn't 'failed' but what folks are waiting to see is some signs of progress.
We're not seeing that, and yes injuries and the loss of experienced players is a big contributor to that situation.

When we are in the doldrums, as we are now, it's only natural that people start to focus on the 'little' picture (team selections, match tactics, player skills and development) because that "big picture, golden age" is a long way in the future...and there are many rivers to cross.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #78 –
Perhaps our problem is as LP suggests, we tried to get ahead ourselves by moving forward too quickly? I see the sense of continuing our defensive game for a bit longer to allow for a bit more consolidation. That, plus injuries certainly haven't helped. I'm still anxious though.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #79 –
Quote from: Raydan – on
"Dow and Kennedy are unproven" Yes, you get that with young players, hence the need to be patient.

"Byrne tries to do too much" Again a player with less than 25 game under his belt, has good size and speed and does kick a long ball but needs time and a consistent go at it before you can really gauge his game.

"Lang could be handy but isnt a proven midfielder yet" Again a young player with not many game under his belt so time is needed.

"Weitering...who knows?..he is broken and no guarantee to be fixed" No guarantee he won't be fixed either. Rance was ordinary for his first 4-5 seasons. It would have been interesting to see if we hadn't of moved him forward, to where he'd be now. Again still only young and is another season and a half away from having enough experience.

"Pickett....very promising but needs a better team to create more opportunities for him" Again with time he will get a better team around him. Pickett is far from a finished product with less than 15 games under his belt. 2-3 seasons.

"SPS...see Chris Yarran.....could go either way real talent but real lazy too.." I agree here to a point, he needs to be dropped and told to go hunt the ball in the 2s get the 25 possessions for a couple of weeks then bring him back.

"Obrien....nice kick but needs a bigger stronger frame to impact....unproven" Again game 3 in his career, he is 3-4 seasons away from having a real impact.

Looking at your replies EB, I wonder if you understand building through a draft. Your comments of unproven are correct but of course they are unproven as they have only just been drafted. You do draft school bpys

Dangerfield, showed glimpses during his first 5 seasons but he was never the league start that he is now. Martin, same deal, it took him several years to get his head straight and attitude right. Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell, Josh Kennedy, Tom Mitchell, Rory Sloane, Luke Parker....... all took 4-5 seasons plus to get their games right now AFL stars.

I just don't get the "rebuild has failed". We are still right in the middle of it. When you cook a casserole, you get the ingredients, you chop them up and put them in a pot together, that's where we are. Now we have to wait 45 mins to and hour to get the finished product. This is the next 2-3 seasons. 

"Dows kicking is questionable and Kennedys fitness the same...." Could not disagree more with Dows kicking, his kicking when he's not tired is outstanding and his hands are immaculate, he is not AFL fit but why would he be? Kennedy shouldn't be playing he looks hampered by the ankle. He needs a few weeks off to get right. The game against Richmond, before he hurt his ankle I'd say he was almost best on ground for a quarter and a half. I agree he needs fitness, something that doesn't come easy with an ankle injury.

BTW Charlie is no where near a tick yet, for a tick he needs to grab the marks and kick the easy goals that he missed, but again with a couple more seasons in the gym and kicking practise I'm sure he'll get there.

As for your comment about Mills on LBJ, I reckon Mills would have him, cause he's an Aussie ;)

Bolton is shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic, he has very little to choose from through injury, so SPS can't get dropped, Plowman can have games off to recover and Marchbank was bought back too early, as he looked underdone. The cupboard is bare of capable bodies so we need to be patient.

Dows kicking is unreliable and was at TAC level.......he has averaged 6 kicks a game, he must get tired real quick, if he gets 12 kicks a game I'd expect him to be asleep at half time... :D

re: Weitering...Rance didnt run around trying to avoid contact or have the coach trying to hide him on the field and find a soft opponent for him either.

Schoolboys yep, we draft a lot of schoolboys ours tend to look like year 9's playing the other teams year 12's thats part of the problem......

Deckchairs, Injuries, sure we have injuries but so do other clubs, Bulldogs have as many of us and had a lot of kids playing too and in important positions..

42 players later its an Ark that SOS and Bolton built thats now turned into a Titanic.... 1 win in 15 for a 3rd year of a rebuild, are you happy with that?

Notice you didnt want to comment on Boltons coaching attributes, game plans or lack of  or SOS's list management?......care to share your thoughts on whats happening in the coaches box and match selection etc...

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #80 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
re: Weitering...Rance didnt run around trying to avoid contact or have the coach trying to hide him on the field and find a soft opponent for him either.

That's not quite true though is it EB1.

My Nthmond friends tell me Rance's early career was actually quite like the way Liam Jones plays at the moment, A-Grade chook runner trying to fly high and spoil marks everywhere was one description I got! He came good towards the end of his 3rd year, and they put that down to the arrival of Martin, Grigg and Houli that year or before, because they pushed back hard to clean up Rance's spoils.

What Nthmond didn't do, was waste trying to turn the kid into a key forward! ;)

My big question over our club this year is the same as Deags, when we switched to attack we deserted the defenders and it made them look very ordinary, we didn't have the players coming off the HBF or Wing pushing back very hard at all! We still don't, watch the weekends game and closely monitor SPS, Marchbank, Dow and Simmo. It's not about top speed, because they seem to run half speed on the return journey. It leaves us looking outnumbered everywhere!

In fairness to Simmo, he must be full up to pussies bow with it, he looks tired and it's only 25% of the way through the season! But that doesn't mean he gets a free pass to butcher the football, he's got to be much better than the kids, not just the equal of them!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #81 –
Quote from: LP – on
That's not quite true though is it EB1.

My Nthmond friends tell me Rance's early career was actually quite like the way Liam Jones plays at the moment, A-Grade chook runner trying to fly high and spoil marks everywhere was one description I got! He came good towards the end of his 3rd year, and they put that down to the arrival of Martin, Grigg and Houli that year or before, because they pushed back hard to clean up Rance's spoils.

What Nthmond didn't do, was waste trying to turn the kid into a key forward! ;)

My big question over our club this year is the same as Deags, when we switched to attack we deserted the defenders and it made them look very ordinary, we didn't have the players coming off the HBF or Wing pushing back very hard at all! We still don't, watch the weekends game and closely monitor SPS, Marchbank, Dow and Simmo. It's not about top speed, because they seem to run half speed on the return journey. It leaves us looking outnumbered everywhere!

LP ..Rance was inconsistent and a turnover merchant early......my point is JW has become timid, hesitant and doesnt want physical contact, he is also trying to disguise it by
not arriving at contests on time usually late or trying to sneak away from where the action is, his last game there was this half ar$ed spoiling attempt in the back pocket where he arrived late and nowhere near the ball...the kid is shell shocked and needs a major intervention....

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #82 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
LP ..Rance was inconsistent and a turnover merchant early......my point is JW has become timid, hesitant and doesnt want physical contact, he is also trying to disguise it by
not arriving at contests on time usually late or trying to sneak away from where the action is, his last game there was this half ar$ed spoiling attempt in the back pocket where he arrived late and nowhere near the ball...the kid is shell shocked and needs a major intervention....

I would definitely like to see Weiters rehabilitated in the NBs for a few weeks under some close guidance from say ASOS. He cost us too much to not be looking after his development a lot more closely.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #83 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I would definitely like to see Weiters rehabilitated in the NBs for a few weeks under some close guidance from say ASOS. He cost us too much to not be looking after his development a lot more closely.

Agree....Needs playing where he can get used to contact, I'd ruck him for parts of games in his rehab in the NB's and build his confidence .

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #84 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
LP ..Rance was inconsistent and a turnover merchant early......my point is JW has become timid, hesitant and doesnt want physical contact, he is also trying to disguise it by
not arriving at contests on time usually late or trying to sneak away from where the action is, his last game there was this half ar$ed spoiling attempt in the back pocket where he arrived late and nowhere near the ball...the kid is shell shocked and needs a major intervention....

I don't agree EB1, I've seen plenty of that happening this season and it's happened to Jones, Plowman and Marchbank as well. But Jones and Weitering have copped the brunt of it because they were the stay at home defenders. They get caught outnumbered and then get a clanger stat because if they win the footy they are disposing of it under pressure.

As for that event you refer to against Norp, you know full well Weitering was stuck between two KPFs and had to move late to get to a contest, by then he was already carrying his 2nd corkie for the match! Even with corkies he still kicked it better than any of our other defenders.

I feel you've got a bee in your bonnet about this kid and are looking for things to cook him over fair or otherwise! Put McKay under the same blow torch, he's the same age, been at the club the same amount of time and offered nothing yet when compared to Weitering's record!

As for how the club has manages the kids, McKay or Charlie break a fingernail and get a week off, Weitering gets to play through his injuries because it builds character! Explain how that works for me?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #85 –
@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #86 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

You do remember Weitering's first season don't you, or his finish to last season, what is McKay's equivalent?

There is no basis for condemning a 20 year old who led the AFL Intercept marking as an 18 year old.  Have a look at Lever version 2018, chocolates to boiled lollies, nobody is pulling the pin on him as quickly as Carlton fans seem to want to cook Weitering! It's ludicrous, if Weitering were at Geelong or Dawkthorn he probably wouldn't have played a senior game yet!

In the meantime we see fans heartily defending Simmo as he turns over another kick after a brave intercept and a sprint forward! That is excruciating!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #87 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

Cookie...Thats a good word on how to describe his mindset.....excruciating, he doesnt want to be out there, I'd be concerned about his long term future and if the game is right for him....

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #88 –
Quote from: LP – on
You do remember Weitering's first season don't you, or his finish to last season, what is McKay's equivalent?

There is no basis for condemning a 20 year old who lead the AFL Intercept marking as an 18 year old.  Have a look at Lever version 2018, chocolates to boiled lollies, nobody is pulling the pin on him as quickly as Carlton fans seem to want to cook Weitering!

Agree on his first season then he got hit in the shoulder and hasnt been the same since....dont want to cook him at all, if he was my son I'd be real worried about his enjoyment of the game.
The big bodies worry him and its like being hit by a fast bowler....he looks like Jonathan Trott after Mitch Johnson shook him up and Trott quit the game....

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #89 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
@ LP

To me McKay exudes confidence and looks like he's having a ball. By comparison Weiters lacks an air of assurance, seems relatively tentative and certainly looks like he is finding the whole experience excruciating. Also seems a bit distant from the other players. Just the impressions I get from his body language.

How much of that though is due to the pressure to perform with injuries in his first few seasons.
We don't know for sure but "I'll stand, kicking to death" if he wasn't asked to keep going despite being injured.
We broke him.
Like we broke Murphy years ago. It's a credit to him to reach the level he did....and yes, it's part of being an AFL player to cope with that....but successful teams don't leave their young-úns to deal with that without some management and protection.