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Topic: Winning isn't everything (Read 30465 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #15 –
Fair point guys that Hawthorn premiership side was on average a year older than our boys who lost on the weekend and played an average of 35 games more.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #16 –
Still they made the finals the year before in 2007, we are last.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #17 –
The Hawks are the most successful club of the modern era, and have been a professionally run organisation for decades. We're still playing catch up. 5 spoons over 4 different coaches is the most cogent summary of our plight that you will ever find. 

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #18 –
Ahhhhh. Winning is everything for us at the moment IMO. Sure we have a list. A better list than what we have had for years. Sure it’s young and still inexperienced. Sure we can develop these players into something special. We can only go so far with growing this current group. We need an injection of 2 to 4 players that make a difference in a game when it really counts. Players with poise. Players with class. Players that are great finishers.

Players that have left other clubs to start fresh with new sides. Where they see hope in winning a premiership. Players that in the past would not consider playing for us because they can’t see a real future. If we were to start winning games, this would change. They would see a future. Money wouldn’t motivate them as much as a potential flag. Players like Betts, Kennedy, Dangerfield, Treloar, Sidebottom etc. Match winning players that would inspire the others to lift at the right moments in a game.

Start winning games and we could add three of these types to our list over the next 2 to 3 seasons. They would add 3 to 5 goals of value per game with their explosive talents. Add 3 to 5 goals to every game we play in a season and there is no reason why we couldn’t win a flag or two. Developing this squad is ultra important. Winning will help speed this process up with on field leadership. Game time leadership. Attract a few of the above type players I have mentioned and we could be anything.

Winning may or may not appear to be everything, but the sooner it starts, the sooner we move to the next phase. A real competitive finals contender. Tell Me these above types wouldn’t want to run around the ground with Harry, Charlie, Fisher, Cripps, Walsh etc, once we show we can win games often. Tell me they wouldn’t add value to our squad and make us almost impossible to beat. Three of the above types would probably be enough to complement our current squad once Doc comes back. We need them to help inspire as Murphy and Simmo won’t last much longer.

Start winning to help us get to the next phase of developing a match winning squad. It is impossible to grow your entire list from the draft. The better sides have done the above. Developed youth. Won games. Topped up with “A” grade players.
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #19 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Fair point guys that Hawthorn premiership side was on average a year older than our boys who lost on the weekend and played an average of 35 games more.

If you consider that Weitering or Cripps is Luke Hodge, how does that stack up given he was drafted in 2001??

Ill give you a clue:  2014 (Cripps debut season) + the difference between Hodge and Hawthorns first flag (IMHO, jagged before their official chance at a flag due to a bit of luck with recruits, and some careful longer term planning) = 2020 being a best case scenario.

If you then consider that their 3 peat started in the 3rd year of their premiership window (they lost to Collingwood by 3 points in the 2011 Prelim) which signalled the arrival of said plan coming to fruition) so add 3 more years:

2022-23 is when we will be arriving in earnest IMHO, and thats using Cripps as our signalling our rebuild, and yet, we were not as calculated as Hawthorn were at the time.



Thats if we keep following the current methodology.

What it should mean, is that so long as the incumbant to replace Bolton (im yet to be convinced we should) doesnt upset the apple cart.  If the incumbant does, and using Cripps recent interview where he states he wants to stick it out and finish what he started, then we probably shouldnt be changing the coach at all.

4 in 40 or whatever.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #20 –
If we change the coach do we change Cripps mind too?

While Cripps' is happy, and while he can see light at the end of the tunnel, should we be happy too?

Personally, I get the frustration, but I don't get the desperation!

Desperation was appointing MM in the dying years of Judd's career, what we are doing now is not desperate, it's far far from it!

I think as a group, the MC is on the right track, we are just frustrated at how long it all takes!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #21 –
Also if you have a look at Hawthorn's record before their rebuild began:

1999 - 9th
2000 - 8th
2001 - 6th
2002 - 10th
2003 - 9th
2004 - 15th
2005 - 14th
2006 - 11th
2007 - 5th
2008 - 2nd
2009 - 9th
2010 - 7th
2011 - 3rd
2012 - 1st
2013 - Premiers
2014 - Premiers
2015 - Premiers
2016 - 3rd
2017 - 12th
2018 - 4th
2019 ??




It becomes really clear why we are where we are at, and why its definitely going to take us a bit longer to really get moving:

Carlton:

1999 - 6th
2000 - 2nd
2001 - 5th
2002 - 16th
2003 - 15th
2004 - 11th
2005 - 16th
2006 - 16th
2007 - 15th
2008 - 11th
2009 - 7th
2010 - 8th
2011- 5th
2012 - 9th
2013 - 9th
2014 - 13th
2015 - 18th
2016 - 14th
2017 - 16th
2018 - 18th
2019 - ????


The point being, that Hawthorn, rallied on the back of a couple of years in the wilderness.  We are trying to undo a culture of failure dating 18 years with a brief period out of that wilderness coinciding with us having a coach coaching for results, and having access to some genuine superstars.  Moral of the story, we forgot to develope for the future and ended up right back on the bottom of the pile, because we are used to assembling a team and going for a premiership.

We are not doing that this time.  We are building one from scratch using the squad that SOS built, and if anyone is still around from before to taste some success, bonus.


"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson
 

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #22 –
Quote from: LP – on
If we change the coach do we change Cripps mind too?

While Cripps' is happy, and while he can see light at the end of the tunnel, should we be happy too?

Personally, I get the frustration, but I don't get the desperation!

Desperation was appointing MM in the dying years of Judd's career, what we are doing now is not desperate, it's far far from it!

I think as a group, the MC is on the right track, we are just frustrated at how long it all takes!

We don't know where Cripps' mind is at.
Happy after the Bulldogs game, Filthy after the weekend.

I think Cripps probably has a certain loyalty to Bolton, whether that outweighs his bond with his team-mates who knows.
Decisions should never be made based on individual players.

Our greatest ever player wasn't bigger than the club.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #23 –
Franklin, Roughead and Lewis in one year...thats your rebuild, three A graders in one draft doesnt happen ever......

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #24 –
I simply don't understand why people are saying we should have more wins this season. What is this based on?

In EVERY game this season, we have been the underdogs based on match odds. This is despite very solid and competitive performances.
We currently have 1 MORE win than expected by the general public.

I know everyone wants to win every game, but objectively, haven't we actually overachieved so far this season?

Personally, I'd rather by in the position we are now, than teams like Essendon and Melbourne who are drastically underachieving.

So be frustrated, be disappointed, be passionate.
But also be realistic and honest when suggesting how many wins we SHOULD have.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #25 –
Just to be clear..
This isn't a thread advocating we replace Bolton.
It's a thread that's about changing the focus from development  to winning games.

Saving the coach is just one aspect of a whole heap of positives that come from winning
At some point winning becomes very important.
I reckon we're just about at that point.

"The wins will come eventually" starts to get a bit stale.
Of course they'll come eventually, for any club...that's how the competition is structured.
For how long that can be sustained is the real unknown.

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #26 –
Quote from: thefutureisblue – on
I simply don't understand why people are saying we should have more wins this season. What is this based on?

In EVERY game this season, we have been the underdogs based on match odds. This is despite very solid and competitive performances.
We currently have 1 MORE win than expected by the general public.

I know everyone wants to win every game, but objectively, haven't we actually overachieved so far this season?

Personally, I'd rather by in the position we are now, than teams like Essendon and Melbourne who are drastically underachieving.

So be frustrated, be disappointed, be passionate.
But also be realistic and honest when suggesting how many wins we SHOULD have.


Actually I think we have one less win than I expected us to have, but that was just a matter of timing and the fact that we didnt punish them on the scoreboard like we should have.

i.e. The bulldogs win was expected given the side we fielded vs theirs and we should have won against the Gold Coast.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #27 –
i note the '76ers just went down 92-90 (and 4/3) after a miracle on the buzzer 2 pointer!
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #28 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Franklin, Roughead and Lewis in one year...thats your rebuild, three A graders in one draft doesnt happen ever......

Weitering, McKay and Curnow is looking good.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Winning isn't everything

Reply #29 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Weitering, McKay and Curnow is looking good.

Looking ok but those Hawks three were something else to pick up in one year...Buddy is a freak, Roughead the ultimate team man and cool head plus Lewis
a brutal tough nut who could also play at the top level.
Ours our talented but those Hawks had a real self confident attitude to go with the talent and the ideal coach in Clarko to harness it all.

I was told by a Carlton Recruiting scout that our recruiting dept considered Lewis  a fat slow kid with no upside who would never make it and he was just a flat track U18 bully..we could have those three Hawk picks and fecked up the three of them IMO...