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Topic: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo (Read 30206 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #135 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'm not sad at all. Not even remotely.

Seems like you've sucked on a bag of lemons before each post.

You seem to get very annoyed if anyone mentions Teague doing a good job in particular but the negativity in your earlier "copy of a copy of a copy" post takes it to the next level.

We're third in the league for scoring since Teague took over.

Can't everyone just be happy for a moment?

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #136 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Nothing makes luck. That's the point. It's random.

Again, you have missed the point.

"I'm a great believer in luck. The harder I work the more of it I seem to have." (Attributed to Thomas Jefferson).
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #137 –
It's amazing how many losers think they were just unlucky.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #138 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Again, you have missed the point.

"I'm a great believer in luck. The harder I work the more of it I seem to have." (Attributed to Thomas Jefferson).

Bollocks. White, privileged male fantasy stuff.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #139 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Bollocks. White, privileged male fantasy stuff.

Wow, now that's a leap! :o Seems a dis-proportionally angry response.

I dare not tell you that that quote has also been used by working class people looking to get ahead, and a number of female athletes from humble beginnings!

Not to mention that Jefferson's early years were full of trauma and loss of family members but he was a voracious reader and ambitious and rose well above his 'station in life'. Admittedly he did inherit in his early 20s a sizeable block of land but was sensible with his loot and studied hard becoming brilliant at a great variety of things... hardly 'privileged' to begin with. To the astonishment of the people of the times he befriended Native American Indians and did much to aid them... on the 'perceived' negative and hypocritical side, he was a rampant rOOter and would shag any woman who took his fancy!
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #140 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Wow, now that's a leap! :o Seems a dis-proportionally angry response.

I dare not tell you that that quote has also been used by working class people looking to get ahead, and a number of female athletes from humble beginnings!

Not to mention that Jefferson's early years were full of trauma and loss of family members but he was a voracious reader and ambitious and rose well above his 'station in life'. Admittedly he did inherit in his early 20s a sizeable block of land but was sensible with his loot and studied hard becoming brilliant at a great variety of things... hardly 'privileged' to begin with. To the astonishment of the people of the times he befriended Native American Indians and did much to aid them... on the 'perceived' negative and hypocritical side, he was a rampant rOOter and would shag any woman who took his fancy!

For every 1 person who does all those things you describe. there are 100 who do exactly the same and don't get anywhere. Not to mention a whole range of subtle and blatant inequalities to do with gender, class, colour, race, ethnicity etc.

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #141 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
IF Ed had hunted his own aggott and SOJ went straight to Fyfe from the start we'd have won by 5 goals... good old IF. And IF we'd sacked BB last year we might be top 4 now...

In the pre match chats everyone at ground level was talking about the rain and the effect it would have on skills.

And you missed the point. You're talking 'luck' and I'm talking about the effects that committed aggression have on attitude... which makes 'luck'.

I think "luck" in the generalised sense of team or individual sport is just a simpletons explanation for cause and effect.

There is luck like when a cricket ball hits a flying seagull and saves a final ball six for your team to win the match, and there is the luck that occurs in you doing the hard work to enable yourself to be in the right place at the right time and take full advantage of a circumstance.

The latter is the sMurph luck last weekend, running to the end of the game and executing with awareness a rehearsed skill under pressure in a crowded environment. As result of years of experience combined with fitness, skills and tactical training.

Murphy's luck was a direct result of Casboult's luck from pushing hard and taking on his opponents, a result of years of bench pressing and fitness regimes and lucky instructions from the coach to be the man pushing forward at that moment.

Finally, Fisher's luck of getting to the contest to execute a "lucky" tap on the end of Casboult's efforts, partly the result of years of ball handling and agility drills.

But then none of that is really a luck like the seagull is it, saying the weekend was luck is just a simpleton way of describing the beneficial results of work ethics they don't understand!

Great care has to be taken when reading too much or too little into a term like luck, it's underlying meaning can be so broad!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #142 –
There is no direct or indirect relationship between hard work and luck - they are occasionally coincident, nothing more and nothing less.
 

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #143 –
Geez, this is a philosophical argument that goes back centuries.
Is there such a thing as luck? Is it all predestined? Is it the mathematical statistical probability of an event?

Good...luck  :)) with this discussion folks!

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #144 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
There is no direct or indirect relationship between hard work and luck - they are occasionally coincident, nothing more and nothing less.

You've missed the point entirely, the problem is the use of language not the idea.

I thought the published comments by Bagger's and yourself exposed the different frames of reference you were debating, it's why I wrote what I wrote. To 3rd party readers you were debating two different types of events that can be described as lucky.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #145 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
There is no direct or indirect relationship between hard work and luck - they are occasionally coincident, nothing more and nothing less.

Yes and no.

Think back to the Gold Coast.

We are up, final contest in front of goal.

McGovern positions himself 1 metre too far out from goal to effect the goalward shot in the dying moments of the match.  Gold Coast got lucky with that but to get that opportunity to have luck, they had to create most of the momentum and play for that final quarter.

Carlton was unlucky that McGovern was getting sucked into that contest, rather than doing the goal line saving like his role was supposed to.  Gold Coast had the inverse effect of being lucky that he was getting sucked into the contest.  Bolton ultimately was the most unlucky.  That result might have been the difference between retaining his job, and not.



Like LP suggests, luck can vary.  A bouncing ball going in the right direction could very well have gotten Toss Lyon and Aint Kilda flag, but the ball ran away from Milne instead of toward.  I seem to recall thinking he was hoping for a lucky bounce and took the pedal off because had he pushed harder to get the aggot his attempt at goal would have been such low percentage that he may not have scored the goal anyway.  Thats where luck didnt smile on Milne and St. Kilda that day.  Result draw, and grand final replay where Collingwood win a premiership.

There are always degrees of luck.  Sometimes you can get lucky by not giving up, and working your bollocks off.  Sometimes irrespective of doing that, luck doesn't lend itself to you.

The truth is though, that in sports, teams do ride their their luck.  Usually that is the combination resulting in the ultimate success and glory.  I can think of a dozen examples where teams get lucky through either their own volition or a combination of circumstances, but there is one ingredient that invariably comes into the equation and that is teams catching a lucky break.  The most important thing to do is make full use of those situations when they present themselves.  The best I can think of is as follows.  15 years ago, Greece won a european cup.  They did it by being disciplined, and working extremely hard on game day and putting in the best 2 years of results a nation of that nature has seen or ever will see.  Yet, if not for a couple of lucky circumstances, they may not have won the trophy.  Examples.  Game 1.  Greece vs Portugal.  Roughly 6 mins into the game, a portugese defender loses the ball by just being a bit sloppy not in the most dangerous of circumstances.  A Greek attacking mid pounces on the lost ball and shoots almost instantaneously after controlling it wrong footing the goalkeeper who may not have even seen it unfold in time to do anything.  1-0 in Greeces favour in a game they ended up winning 2-1.  In the group stages, Greece lost to Russia 2-1.  A 2-0 result would have seen them crash out of those group stages on goal difference.  The goal was a combination of good fortune and good positioning by a forward pouncing on a lose ball at the back post.  In the semi final, one of the worlds best midfielders at the time (Pavel Nedved) left the game after a fairly minor collision after just 28 mins, thanks to a knee injury.  That changed the flow of the game as the Czech Republic had used him to penetrate an otherwise rock solid defense, and were getting closer to scoring until that moment.  The rules of the tournament introduced a silver goal for the first and last time during a tournament.  Silver goal meaning if you scored in the first half of extra time, the game was finished.  Greece scored a silver goal to qualify to the final against Portugal.  Against Portugal the winning goal was a header from a corner.  The corner was misread by defender and goalkeeper who collided rather than intercepting the cross leaving a greek attacker to head it in by simply having had a good ball knocked in, and being in the right place at the right time.  That is a combination of preparation and luck.  If not for goalkeeper and defender colliding that goal doesnt occur and the whole game changes.

This is where teams get lucky, and by doing it of their own volition.  Defenders don't lose the ball without a little bit of pressure.  Players don't get injured without someone contesting.  Balls don't end up in situations which force errors without the dangerous play being created by people being industrious and putting things in just the right area to result in a favourable circumstance.

A little known factor heading into that tournament.  Greece had a defender break his leg in a car accident.  He had been a mainstay in the lineup through qualifying for 18 months or the 16 official matches required to qualify, and missed all of the final tournament(Nikos Dabizas).  The fact that someone else was ready to fill in for his absence and did so with aplomb is a combination of luck and hard work by others.  Had Greece bombed out of that tournament, through a defense that conceded too many goals, they would have been talking about how unlucky it was to lose said player through a car accident of all circumstances. 


The fates play a role to a degree.  The adage of the harder you work the luckier you get is true to a degree.  You cannot control when circumstances are going to conspire against you, or for you.  What you can control is where you sit for those circumstances to play themselves out.


As an avid sports fan, watching a country of my heritage win one of those tournaments is possibly one of the great dreams for anybody.  I still have people tell me that I lived their dreams.  The reality is, that I was 22, had the available resources and means to not only get to that tournament but buy tickets and get to every single match that Greece played in plus a couple more.  The odds of that occurring for anyone of Greek heritage ever again are so slim given Greece's relative standing, and their ability to win those tournaments that it is something that I will forever consider myself lucky to have witnessed it in my lifetime.  I did have to have the guts to go out on a limb, and travel halfway around the world to a foreign country, expecting nothing but some entertainment by our opposition, and to have a bit of an adventure and managed to get lucky and see some of my wildest dreams come true.  That is where I created my own luck.  The rest of circumstances conspired to assist with lady luck playing her part.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Post Game Passion: AFL 2019 Rd 15: Carlton vs. Freo

Reply #146 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
For every 1 person who does all those things you describe. there are 100 who do exactly the same and don't get anywhere. Not to mention a whole range of subtle and blatant inequalities to do with gender, class, colour, race, ethnicity etc.

Life is difficult, Pauly. But, paradoxically, if you realise that it doesn't seem quite so difficult. There are few free rides. (sorry if that sounds somewhat preachy, not intended to be that way - I actually really understand your viewpoint... and please know that's not meant to sound patronizing.)

Let's try another tack on the luck thing (enjoying the 'dance' Pauly? Sorry about your foot). 2 people in an organisation, same gender, similar ages, similar skills and capabilities, similar appearances re attractiveness... one is bright and optimistic and going the extra yard, the other is a misery guts, always up for a whinge. One can be promoted... who gets the gig?

Now apply this to last week's game. We were aggressive, positive, confident... things that are deeply important to Teaguey and presumable the remainder of the coaching and fitness group. Without the positive, aggressive, offensive mind-set Murph doesn't bother to bust a gut to get into dangerous positions, SPS doesn't launch himself into tackles lifting his team mates, Daisy trusts his gut and runs behind the gathering pack to kick a goal, ditto many other examples from Sunday's game.

What seemed like 'luck' was actually cause and effect... nothing more complicated than that, with the positive mental attitude that the coaching group is instilling in our blokes, they're manufacturing opportunities.... Attitude pushed them into situations they might otherwise avoid, when you do that you greatly increase your likelihood of what appears to be 'luck.'

FWIW I seldom actually use the word 'luck'... except in lotteries and the like. Was I unlucky to end up with PTSD (and the associated anxiety issues), of course not, I was in the military so I was going to see or participate in horrors... and so it goes.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17