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Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #75 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Even if we entertain the idea that Climate Change is not real (for the sake of the argument), who doesn't seriously believe that we would all benefit from better and cleaner ways of doing things ? We should change because the new ways are better - that's reason enough.

You're a cheeky one, Pauly, bringing common sense and logic into the whole argument!

If you consistently and persistently spew toxins into the atmosphere and water is it possible after doing enough of that for long enough there might just be some adverse effects for the living creatures?

And if your beautiful little niece was feeling unwell and 96% of doctors diagnosed a problem then suggested xyz treatment, yet 4% of doctors disagreed with the 96% and said there's nothing wrong with her - do nothing... whose advice would you take? Simplistic? Yes, but the same principle applies.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #76 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
You're a cheeky one, Pauly, bringing common sense and logic into the whole argument!

If you consistently and persistently spew toxins into the atmosphere and water is it possible after doing enough of that for long enough there might just be some adverse effects for the living creatures?

And if your beautiful little niece was feeling unwell and 96% of doctors diagnosed a problem then suggested xyz treatment, yet 4% of doctors disagreed with the 96% and said there's nothing wrong with her - do nothing... whose advice would you take? Simplistic? Yes, but the same principle applies.

Depends if that 4% contains House. ;) He's always right.

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #77 –
If an expert has some significant insight into the cause or solution to a problem they quickly become part of the majority. They do not need to defend there position because the majority are in consensus with them.

This is the opposite of the human induced climate change sceptics, who are continually and increasingly aggressively defending their position because they are in the minority. They try to compensate for this by shouting which seems to influence the weak minded!

Quote from: PaulP – on
Even if we entertain the idea that Climate Change is not real (for the sake of the argument), who doesn't seriously believe that we would all benefit from better and cleaner ways of doing things ? We should change because the new ways are better - that's reason enough.
This is the only rational position to take.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #78 –
One factor we don't hear much about is how many of these fires are the result of firebug actions. I have read that many have been deliberately lit? This would be a problem of our society and its collective mental health?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #79 –
Looting's another ... that's close to shoot on sight in my book.

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #80 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
One factor we don't hear much about is how many of these fires are the result of firebug actions. I have read that many have been deliberately lit? This would be a problem of our society and its collective mental health?

There's been a couple of those, Fluffy One, but most common is lightning strikes. Fortunately firies are better screened these days as in the past the CFA (esp volunteers) becomes a place that pyromaniacs just loved to hang out... and secretly give everyone work to do! And you get the odd c0ckhead kids who light fires but with better drone technology and more of them these fires are usually spotted early.

As CC mentioned, what is really infuriating is the scam artists arriving on the scene to take advantage of the vulnerable. I probably shouldn't write this but I wouldn't be against publicly identifying and shaming these appalling creatures.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #81 –
Perhaps this thread's title could be changed to 'Deer in the Firelight'...?

I think so much of this is about Government policy, both Federal and State - they spend less and less on vital services so they can provide more tax cuts, with the net effect that it allows us to watch the outcome of the bushfires on the 65" TV in the spare room. 

I am well aware of the Federal-State impasse that occurs when it comes to funding public services (I work in Health), which just gives them both an excuse to blame each other.  But in the end, the politicians are too busy buying votes and building monuments to use OUR money wisely.

The old saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - if we have effective and well-provisioned emergency workforces including volunteers, providing proactive as well as reactive services, we are less likely to end up wondering how so many of these events go so wrong.

This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #82 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
There's been a couple of those, Fluffy One, but most common is lightning strikes. Fortunately firies are better screened these days as in the past the CFA (esp volunteers) becomes a place that pyromaniacs just loved to hang out... and secretly give everyone work to do! And you get the odd c0ckhead kids who light fires but with better drone technology and more of them these fires are usually spotted early.

As CC mentioned, what is really infuriating is the scam artists arriving on the scene to take advantage of the vulnerable. I probably shouldn't write this but I wouldn't be against publicly identifying and shaming these appalling creatures.

I think that may be somewhat of an underestimation Baggers.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/bushfires-firebugs-fuelling-crisis-asarson-arresttollhits183/news-story/52536dc9ca9bb87b7c76d36ed1acf53f

Some cases could be called accidental/careless but the "deliberate" category is significant.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #83 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
As CC mentioned, what is really infuriating is the scam artists arriving on the scene to take advantage of the vulnerable. I probably shouldn't write this but I wouldn't be against publicly identifying and shaming these appalling creatures.

Yes, low life types posing as charity collectors.

But we don't want vigilantism because more often than not it is some innocent who accidentally gets lynched while the crook gets away!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #84 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Both of these are just dumb arguments, a very typical Beverly Hillbillies style, small town, small minded, provincial attack on (grievous yawn) Inner City Elites and leftist academics. I guess we can dismiss everything Einstein ever said because he never traveled around the universe to see it for himself.




An a typical 'green townie' response.

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #85 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
There's been a couple of those, Fluffy One, but most common is lightning strikes. Fortunately firies are better screened these days as in the past the CFA (esp volunteers) becomes a place that pyromaniacs just loved to hang out... and secretly give everyone work to do! And you get the odd c0ckhead kids who light fires but with better drone technology and more of them these fires are usually spotted early.

As CC mentioned, what is really infuriating is the scam artists arriving on the scene to take advantage of the vulnerable. I probably shouldn't write this but I wouldn't be against publicly identifying and shaming these appalling creatures.

Unfortunately Baggers. there have been many more than a couple started by arsonists. 


 

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #86 –
The fuel reduction debate is complex, but again the main problem is people, not animals be they domesticated or indigenous types.

I read an article proposing drones for fuel reduction, solar powered no doubt. I know perfect fuel reduction drones, they are called cows or kangaroos and you can feed them to the starving when they are "retired" from service!

In some areas the bureaucracy have given large swaths of land over to forestry, then put restrictions on how much of it can be processed each year. So the commercial interests do what commercial interests do and minimize costs in areas they can't make profitable, so they stop maintaining those areas and the fuel load grows. But they want to reap the eventual harvest, so they ask government to ban forest dwellers from collecting fallen timber before the company can get to it! So the bureaucracy bans people entering the area, including farmers and their herds. Can someone explain to me what native vegetation or critters are being destroyed by cattle browsing under kilometers of soon to be felled hardwood or pine plantation?

In the meantime, animal rights activists lobby to stop shooters shooting deer in the same area, so the government bans that as well, do you get the irony of this fuel load issue?

The smart money was always to target strategic burning of areas to slow or reduce risk to certain communities, but it seems none of the money spent so far was very smart!

I heard another interesting point made today, I haven't found the article yet to back this up but it seems to make sense. The carbon emissions released from this catastrophic event in just two weeks are equal to the last 30 years of fuel reduction burning. Several endangered species that almost certainly would have survived localised cold weather fuel reduction burns are now most likely extinct from wildfire.

Yet we can't reduce the fuel by burning or livestock grazing because it's bad for the environment, have I missed something?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #87 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I think that may be somewhat of an underestimation Baggers.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/bushfires-firebugs-fuelling-crisis-asarson-arresttollhits183/news-story/52536dc9ca9bb87b7c76d36ed1acf53f

Some cases could be called accidental/careless but the "deliberate" category is significant.


It's a curly one, Fluffy One... depends on which media outlet you frequent sometimes as to the news you get. I tend not to give much credence to News Ltd stories as there is a definite bias with their interpretation of stories. The info I read said that though real and a deep concern -- deliberate fires -- what really terrified firies was 'dry' storms etc.

Anyway and either way, I guess the real issue is how fires can now develop from what we're used to or have known for more than a century, to what has recently been described by firies as types of fires they've not seen before and being increasingly difficult to combat, and starting earlier in the 'fire season', and lasting longer.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #88 –
To me the whole debate is a cake and eat it issue. The politicians want the green vote, but they don't want to spend the money needed to make the green vote viable for the environment we live in. So they fudge things and this last few weeks is what happens.

In the meantime, we'll build some more billion dollar tunnels or elevated rail lines to save one or two lives a year from the millions of humans that infest the joint, ironically many of them inner city green voters who can now travel from their retro-converted Italian slate filled suede curtain kombucha leather carpet bamboo framed warehouse on a fully imported carbon fibre titanium hybrid Chinese rare earth solar cell powered lithium battery boosted not manufactured in my backyard bicycle or scooter, unimpeded by the need to stop at level crossings or for a passing electric car which is by chance also full of the good stuff, leaving the rest of the joint to burn while we suburban plebs sip on our Beaujolais ironically flown in from Beaujolais(In the nuclear powered state of France) and sold to us radiation free at record low prices by Aldi!

All with the very best of intentions! ::)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Deer in the Headlights

Reply #89 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
It's a curly one, Fluffy One... depends on which media outlet you frequent sometimes as to the news you get. I tend not to give much credence to News Ltd stories as there is a definite bias with their interpretation of stories. The info I read said that though real and a deep concern -- deliberate fires -- what really terrified firies was 'dry' storms etc.

Anyway and either way, I guess the real issue is how fires can now develop from what we're used to or have known for more than a century, to what has recently been described by firies as types of fires they've not seen before and being increasingly difficult to combat, and starting earlier in the 'fire season', and lasting longer.

I guess it is a human trait to believe what you want to believe Baggers. True for people from all walks of life and shades of political opinion. Unfortunately few of us are blessed with the gift of absolute impartiality.
Reality always wins in the end.