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Topic: CV and mad panic behaviour (Read 946332 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7515 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
@ tonyo
Thanks for that. For me the lockdowns and vaccinations had to go hand in hand int he fight against the rising death toll. Personally my family and I had no issues with either, we copped fine but I am acutely aware many didn't.

Same here G2C …

I was a bit concerned about my son in his apartment but he thrived.  Being able to take his dog for walks was important.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7516 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
What would have happened if there was no vaccine and mandated program?

How many people would have died worldwide?  Estimates suggest the death toll would have been 6 times greater, and that vaccination saved around 20 million lives in the first year alone.

Would our health systems have collapsed under the burden of overwhelming numbers of patients?  I was working in a healthcare facility at the time - we managed to keep our head above water, just.  If the patient numbers had even gone up by 20%, I think we would have been turning seriously-ill patients away.

This is something that often gets overlooked in all of this.
How many people would have died because they couldn't get access to doctors/hospitals etc because they were overrun with covid patients.

People forget about the early days of COVID. Remember people singing from their balconies in Italy? They were in lockdown early on. There was people dead inside those same areas who could not get access to help. They couldn't even get people to come and collect bodies.
That is 'middle ages' stuff. Thats a small example of what overrun healthcare systems can look like.

Had there been no lockdowns and no vaccine, the death toll from covid would've sky rocketted. The death toll from other diseases would've skyrocketted as well.
I've got no doubt that this would've encouraged riots/looting etc because 'the government failed to keep people safe' and society would've been worse off as a result.

It doesn't take much for society to go balls up.
Look at how everyone reacted to toilet paper FFS.
Imagine instead of a shortage of TP there was a shortage of medicine and medical treatments.
A shortage of healthcare for mothers giving birth and infants.
Elderly unable to be looked after regularly like they required.

Take away some basic things you take for granted - water, food, healthcare and people will go nuts.

Lockdowns and vaccines prevented that.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7517 –
But nah, moi libertyse!!
🙄🙄
Let’s go BIG !

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7518 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
What would have happened if there was no vaccine and mandated program?

I suppose the historical numbers tell us, we just keep referring to the hard indisputable facts;

 - Before vaccines became widely available the early COVID outbreak was killing about to 100000 people per week.

 - When vaccines arrived, despite COVID infections peaking at roughly 23000000 cases per week, the death rate fell to about 4000 per week. 4000 per week is still way too many people, and a lot of those 4000 came out of the USA fuelled by misinformation, but that means 96000 people a week were being spared the ultimate fate.

So vaccines helped save 96% of COVID patients.

The worlds problems is the RFK driven conspiracy nutters deny any real world data, which is ironic, the nutters making all the fake claims like to label the real evidence fake.

( FWIW, RFK still promotes an anti-vaccination stance claiming MMR vaccine causes Down Syndrome, despite those claims being long disproved and the people who made them de-registered. )
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7519 –
Considering the cost of every day living and thr fact that we lost a swad of medical professionals and no longer have free healthcare, i reckon there's a bit of rose coloured glasses going on.

Based on some semblance of statistics and what I saw in a 900+ bed hospital they were pretty empty and all the increased cost was spent on stuff like audit angels, equipment to make outpatient clinics work better (printers that were 8 years old) lots of equipment that was cleaned and wasn't designed to be (cordless phones and equipment) and the general fact that at the start of the pandemic they were planning for numbers far greater than they saw because thats what the modelling told them with the assumption that bilateral pneumonia and intubation as going to be required.

This turned out to be true only in extreme cases of which at their height the health service i worked for had a maximum of 6 patients at 1 time in icu. 

What they don't talk about?  That every day people based on the early data (12 months) were already likely to be fine.  They worked that out pretty fast.

Thing is there is a facet of we'll never know.  Personally I was and am fine.  Our economy is well and truly stuffed though, and hyperinflation in wages is the result.  Next we'll get a glut of foreigners to dilute the workforce and the next thing to happen will be booming house prices.  Elevated interest rates have staved that off for now, but watch next.

Thats not to say what should and shouldn't have happened.   There are way too many extreme examples being peddled to prove points that don't touch on the facts.  I spoke to a teacher of high school.  3 generations of kids are coming through with some very odd social habits and skills resulting from the lockdowns. 

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7520 –
Big words from people still here to complain about it! ;D

What's 96000 lives a week worth, the price of a war?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7521 –
On full display is the hypocrisy of the anti-vax movement.

Recently the anti-vaxers have been parroting a study by Yale University which claimed evidence for the existence of something they call PVS (Post Vaccination Syndrome) big words for side effect. But reality is the study had just 64 participants, 42 of the 64 self-reported a serious vaccine side effect, but of the 42 only 18 had some evidence of a immune system reaction that wasn't COVID-19 related. This study at best is just political, at worst it is outright deceitful and dangerous.

In the meantime, the same anti-vaxers are throwing rocks as a study of 622 children that showed the COVID vaccines delivered clear and measurable benefits in the reduction of Long COVID symptoms in children, and effectively eliminated the fear mongering claims that vaccines were a cause of sudden youth death. COVID vaccination decreased the chance of Long COVID symptoms by 57%, and decreased the chance of multiple Long COVID events by 73%. Yet the anti-vaxers claim the study is too small for be worth considering!

Regarding sudden deaths in youth populations;
Quote
In all, there were 387 cases, with no statistically significant difference in the number of cases in the years prior to the pandemic (203) compared with those during the pandemic (184).

"This cohort study found no increase in SCA/SCD in young competitive athletes in the US during the COVID-19 pandemic, suggesting that reports asserting otherwise were overestimating the cardiovascular risk of COVID-19 infection, vaccination, and myocarditis," the authors conclude.
Do you see the anti-vax hypocrisy hard at play?

So the real world conclusion here can only be that vaccines deliver tangible benefits to both young and old.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7522 –
Anti Vax pro Vax.  It does little to the over arching discussion but allow you to deny any opposition thought. That my friend is how you win a propaganda war.

You want to get nervous about a virus:

https://7news.com.au/news/mystery-illness-kills-50-people-within-two-days-c-17850826?fbclid=IwY2xjawIro1xleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHavJ7eK_tc4BQ7MOFS3nO66FYBl8Jimy0MMTogkE10JCUYMITIKghX87gQ_aem_SobYpMEBLewk-NJOFulc_Q

That's the pandemic we need to be worried about but due to over reacting to one that's on the mild spectrum if the time comes where measures are required youll get minimal compliance until people see it first hand.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7523 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Anti Vax pro Vax.  It does little to the over arching discussion but allow you to deny any opposition thought. That my friend is how you win a propaganda war.

You want to get nervous about a virus:

https://7news.com.au/news/mystery-illness-kills-50-people-within-two-days-c-17850826?fbclid=IwY2xjawIro1xleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHavJ7eK_tc4BQ7MOFS3nO66FYBl8Jimy0MMTogkE10JCUYMITIKghX87gQ_aem_SobYpMEBLewk-NJOFulc_Q

That's the pandemic we need to be worried about but due to over reacting to one that's on the mild spectrum if the time comes where measures are required youll get minimal compliance until people see it first hand.

That hardly sounds like an intelligent viewpoint, it probably represents a segment of the population however.
That’s the pity…
Let’s go BIG !

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7524 –
yet a lower death rate than both Ebola and Marburg...read that somewhere else.  Not that it sounds like something great to catch.  DRC is an absolute mess of a country.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7525 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
That's the pandemic we need to be worried about but due to over reacting to one that's on the mild spectrum if the time comes where measures are required youll get minimal compliance until people see it first hand.
Mild? :o

Just half a dozen posts back I gave hard retrospective figures of 100000 deaths per week pre-vaccine, a head count not an estimate or model, that's not mild by any measure and labelling it mild is an offensive NIMBY perspective.

In case the math is too tough for some, COVID killed over 14000 people a day early in the pandemic.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7526 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
That's the pandemic we need to be worried about but due to over reacting to one that's on the mild spectrum if the time comes where measures are required youll get minimal compliance until people see it first hand.
Mild? :o

Just half a dozen posts back I gave hard retrospective figures of 100000 deaths per week pre-vaccine, a head count not an estimate or model, that's not mild by any measure and labelling it mild is an offensive NIMBY perspective.

In case the math is too tough for some, COVID killed over 14000 people a day early in the pandemic.
Sorry mate on the scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the plague and 1 being H1N1 where does covid rank?

If its high ill be shocked.

Also covid deaths aren't what they say they were but the truth won't come out about that so keep the numbers.  They're estimated, and covid was showing up on death certs in people that had serious health issues that killed them.  Covid may have contributed.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson
 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7527 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Also covid deaths aren't what they say they were but the truth won't come out about that so keep the numbers.  They're estimated, and covid was showing up on death certs in people that had serious health issues that killed them.  Covid may have contributed.
That's just a set of spurious claims built on a conspiratorial mindset, not at all based in reality.

The figures I quote are hard numbers, most recently updated by several national and global health entities including hard numbers reported by from epidemiologists in countries conspirators wrongly like to claim as proof of COVID being fake.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7528 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Sorry mate on the scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the plague and 1 being H1N1 where does covid rank?

If its high ill be shocked.
Safe and effective vaccines meant it wasn't as bad.

FWIW, Epidemiologists advised during the pandemic that the initial R0, before vaccines, was worse than the Spanish Flu and the numbers were predicted to be similar if not for the arrival of vaccines.

As for comparing, it's unrealistic and ridiculous to compare a pandemic from the 1300s to one from modern times. If we had no hospitals, no antibiotics, no respirators, no transfusions, no real time data and reporting, no food distribution and transport, you know the stuff provided by science and engineering, then COVID might well have been as bad or worse than previous pandemics.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7529 –
Quote from: dodge – on
yet a lower death rate than both Ebola and Marburg...read that somewhere else.  Not that it sounds like something great to catch.  DRC is an absolute mess of a country.
Red Trump cancels the US Aid programs, food and medicine stop immediately, starving kids start eating bats, is there a better cause and effect to be found?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"