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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 95752 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #315 –
If I recall correctly we had a narrow loss after Weiters was injured in this game last year, and he missed next 4 or 5 weeks.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #316 –
Yep LP.....Weitering went off midway through the first quarter and we were already missing players that day including Harry, Pitto, McGovern.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #317 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
We have had 16 wins under Voss. TDK has played in 14 of them.

He missed the West Coast game this year and the Port game early last year.

Here we go again....cause and correlation.

You know who else has played in 14 of them.
Lachie O'brien.... but we don't hear anyone calling for his return do we.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #318 –
TDK “The Talisman”
Let’s go BIG !

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #319 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Here we go again....cause and correlation.

You know who else has played in 14 of them.
Lachie O'brien.... but we don't hear anyone calling for his return do we.

By what measure are we better with Pittonet rucking alone?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #320 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Lachie O'brien.... but we don't hear anyone calling for his return do we.
If he was in form in the VFL I would, as would others.

Which is interesting, because we accept no spot for LoB based on form, but our ruck problem at the moment is we have zero rucks in top form. So I can't see why we think we can persist with a single ruck option in hope, it's like chooklotto whether they can come good going solo!

Is best of a bad bunch a good enough reason to pick just one, I would have thought a backup is quite wise?
(And no, SoJ is not a ruck backup, he's just not viable!)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #322 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
For those interested, Dermott Brereton's opinion on the top 10 ruck men currently.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2023/05/18/breretons-top-10-ruckmen-in-the-game-so-far-in-2023/
It's a fairly obvious list, and it's a tell.

Our blokes just aren't having any effective impact on the result, even last week with all the taps from Pitto it appeared English was more influential in just a handful of game moments. That's because measuring the ruck by taps alone, regardless of effectiveness, is way over-rated.

For me Pitto lacks the same impact in defensive positioning, that's his go and when he does that we get more from McGovern and Weiters. In F50 TDK draws defenders, he's a significant risk and can't be ignored, also when TDK rucks in F50 that allows Harry, Charlie, Cripps and SoJ get to rove and they are all above average mobile for KPPs / Talls.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #323 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
By what measure are we better with Pittonet rucking alone?

Firstly, he is not rucking alone.

Depending on the day, he has either Young, Harry or Jack or a combination of them rucking with him.

Secondly, that leads into why we are better, because team balance allows us to play smaller by comparison.
We are basically too tall even when we play 1 ruck.
Harry, Charlie and Jack up forward
Weitering, Young and McGovern down back......and we wanna play Kemp in there somewhere as well.
Pitto in the ruck.
Thats at least 7 talls in the side....and you want to add an 8th in TDK.
The more talls you have, the less smalls you have.
The less smalls you have, the more work they are required to do.
The more work they are required to do, the more fatigued they get.
The more fatigued they get, the more we fall in a hole and get overrun......and lose.

Our team is not lacking in ruck work with Pitto there.
It is not lacking in tall, marking targets to kick long too.
So why do we need to add another ruck into the side? What actual benefit does it give us?

TDK is more athletic and is more likely to take a hangar. But over the course of a game, how much does he actually offer the team in terms of output?
Look, if he was a true ruck/forward and kicking goals and getting 20+ touches around the ground, we'd find a spot for him. But he doesn't and isn't.

I've already shown that our results this year are not dependent on how many rucks we play, but the strength of our opposition.
0-3 against top 6
1-1-1 against middle 6
3-0 against bottom 6.

Thats about as definitive as you can get as to why we are winning or losing....not because we are playing 1 ruck or 2....or LOB...or Plowman or anyone else.

So, by what measure are we better with 2 rucks?

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #324 –
Quote from: LP – on
It's a fairly obvious list, and it's a tell.

Our blokes just aren't having any effective impact on the result, even last week with all the taps from Pitto it appeared English was more influential in just a handful of game moments. That's because measuring the ruck by taps alone, regardless of effectiveness, is way over-rated.

For me Pitto lacks the same impact in defensive positioning, that's his go and when he does that we get more from McGovern and Weiters. In F50 TDK draws defenders, he's a significant risk and can't be ignored, also when TDK rucks in F50 that allows Harry, Charlie, Cripps and SoJ get to rove and they are all above average mobile for KPPs / Talls.

1. I have never called Pittonet an elite ruckman outside of tap work. I've been open and honest about his need to improve his around the ground work. Just as i have with TDK.
2. The reason i fixate on ruckwork is because its the only apples with apples comparison you can get in the modern game. Everything else is dependent on too many other factors.
eg Forwards kicking goals.
Amount of inside 50's.
Amount of times they are targetted with the ball
Amount of times they are 1 on 1.
Goal accuracy.
Positions they are attempting shots from.
etc
etc
etc
3. When TDK rucks inside F50 it allows Harry (etc) to rove? Thats your 'pro' for TDK??
I'd go the complete opposite direction. When Harry rucks forward, that means we don't have him getting in the way and adding unneccesary numbers clogging up our forwardline!

4. The list is obvious, its about work around the ground. You don't expect Pittonet to be on it. You know what, you don't expect TDK to be on it either. Neither are above average with their around the ground work, so why have 2 of them? You are just carrying another non-around-the-ground-contributor.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #325 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Firstly, he is not rucking alone.

Depending on the day, he has either Young, Harry or Jack or a combination of them rucking with him.

Secondly, that leads into why we are better, because team balance allows us to play smaller by comparison.
We are basically too tall even when we play 1 ruck.
Harry, Charlie and Jack up forward
Weitering, Young and McGovern down back......and we wanna play Kemp in there somewhere as well.
Pitto in the ruck.
Thats at least 7 talls in the side....and you want to add an 8th in TDK.
The more talls you have, the less smalls you have.
The less smalls you have, the more work they are required to do.
The more work they are required to do, the more fatigued they get.
The more fatigued they get, the more we fall in a hole and get overrun......and lose.

Our team is not lacking in ruck work with Pitto there.
It is not lacking in tall, marking targets to kick long too.
So why do we need to add another ruck into the side? What actual benefit does it give us?

TDK is more athletic and is more likely to take a hangar. But over the course of a game, how much does he actually offer the team in terms of output?
Look, if he was a true ruck/forward and kicking goals and getting 20+ touches around the ground, we'd find a spot for him. But he doesn't and isn't.

I've already shown that our results this year are not dependent on how many rucks we play, but the strength of our opposition.
0-3 against top 6
1-1-1 against middle 6
3-0 against bottom 6.

Thats about as definitive as you can get as to why we are winning or losing....not because we are playing 1 ruck or 2....or LOB...or Plowman or anyone else.

So, by what measure are we better with 2 rucks?

Show the other 22 games.

2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #326 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Show the other 22 games.

Why?

I showed you this year and it didn't make a difference.
I showed you LOB has same success rate and it doesn't make a difference.
I've tried to explain the difference between causation and correlation and you don't seem to grasp it.

What benefit does having TDK in the side actually bring the side?

EDIT: Perhaps Fisher is the missing link? He has played in every Voss win!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #327 –
Season 2022

Against top 6 2-6
Against mid 6 3-3
Against bott 6 7-1

Fun fact.
Our 2 wins against top 6 teams came when we only had 1 ruck
Our only loss against a bottom 6 side was when we had 2 rucks.

So tell me again how important it is that we play 2 rucks.....

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #328 –
Just out of curiosity who was the sole ruck for those wins against the top 6 sides last year?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #329 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Just out of curiosity who was the sole ruck for those wins against the top 6 sides last year?
Causation and correlation.

It was because Fisher and LOB were playing remember.