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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 258007 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #555 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I like how you selectively edited out all the parts you don't have an answer for.
I don't feel I need to respond to things that are obviously either wrong, trivial, out of context, rock throwing or otherwise spurious.

And within the context of your inferences, the problem isn't the stat and never was the stat, the problem is that any stat that is so open to arbitrary interpretation like HtA is next to useless, pretty much any meaning can be asserted from a chosen or preferred perspective. For example, claiming that Young and SoJ being flogged by opposition rucks is somehow a better outcome than having a competitive or winning duo like Pitto and TDK!

A flogging is a flogging, no matter what arbitrary numbers you want to give to it!

The glitter of HtA is not gold, it's fools gold!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #556 –
If English taps the ball directly to Bailey Smith but the bigger Cripps bodies him out of the way and takes possession that would be Cripps who changed the status of that hit out.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #557 –
I try not to focus too much on the ruckwork because I think they need to do more than that. Our midfield would set up different depending who is rucking for us and who is rucking for them.

2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #558 –
My only issue with Silvagni rucking is often he is monstered and he is too slow to be that extra midfielder.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #559 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
My only issue with Silvagni rucking is often he is monstered and he is too slow to be that extra midfielder.

My problem with him rucking is it wears him down over time.
He was shattered by the end of last season....and took some time to get going this year.
On the weekend he had a spring in his jump and looked fresh.

I'm not sure about his pace...we consider him to be slow, but one of the footy shows last night showed him gut running a long distance and running away from his Hawthorn opponent at the end.
I suspect if there's an issue with his pace it's more to do with initial reaction and acceleration over the first 5-10 metres.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #560 –
He had a couple of weeks break from not being smashed in the ruck and played his best game for a while. 
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #561 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
If English taps the ball directly to Bailey Smith but the bigger Cripps bodies him out of the way and takes possession that would be Cripps who changed the status of that hit out.
That's exactly what was happening last weekend, our Mids made every tap a physical contest, and that is why despite all the clear taps the Dawks had few HtA and a poor clearance rate.

As an aside, the Hawthorn people I was sitting with couldn't believe how broad Cerra is across the shoulders, he is much heavier in the upper body than fans credit him for and he basically brushed the Dawks Mids aside.

Personally, I think against the smaller bodied teams, it's a better tactic to tap to the advantage of the opponents and let Cripps, Cerra and Kennedy take a full physical toll over the hunted opposition, rather than have Cripps in front being tackled every stoppage. It works especially well when we have the wave mentality going, you might get through Cripps but Cerra is next, if you break the Cerra tackle he's followed by Kennedy. If you wear down the opposition early, getting smashed by Cripps and Cerra, then at the end of the game you get to see Cripps parting the sea at stoppages because the opposition is already broken!

As for SoJ rucking, Young has a better reach but little or no skills, SoJ has Young covered for 2nd efforts and running off the opposition ruck. But neither of them are a patch on TDK, and we are probably going to see that in the future regardless of what club TDK ends at.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #562 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
If English taps the ball directly to Bailey Smith but the bigger Cripps bodies him out of the way and takes possession that would be Cripps who changed the status of that hit out.

If it was directly to Bailey Smith and Cripps was close enough to get the ball before he got to him, then it would never have been a hitout to advantage to begin with. You need to have enough time to dispose of the ball and essentially not get pinned for holding the ball if you are tackled.

This is a common misconception which is why people (like LP) cannot get their head around. It is not enough getting it directly to a player, they need to have enough time to dispose of it successfully as well.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #563 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
You need to have enough time to dispose of the ball and essentially not get pinned for holding the ball if you are tackled.
So HtA is down to and dependant on the Mids being able to make themselves enough clear space to win possession and dispose of the ball, but it's a ruck stat!



Hmmmmmm, are you really supposed to be on my side of the debate? :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #564 –
Quote from: LP – on
I don't feel I need to respond to things that are obviously either wrong, trivial, out of context, rock throwing or otherwise spurious.

And within the context of your inferences, the problem isn't the stat and never was the stat, the problem is that any stat that is so open to arbitrary interpretation like HtA is next to useless, pretty much any meaning can be asserted from a chosen or preferred perspective. For example, claiming that Young and SoJ being flogged by opposition rucks is somehow a better outcome than having a competitive or winning duo like Pitto and TDK!

A flogging is a flogging, no matter what arbitrary numbers you want to give to it!

The glitter of HtA is not gold, it's fools gold!
                                          

Sometimes i wonder if you dream about the arguments we have, because your responses are not relating to anything thats actually been said. Its like you've made up alternative conversations in your head.

Nobody has suggested SOS/Young won the day, is a preferred ruck duo or any of that.
They were dominated in the ruck, as they should have been. However, if i was a hawthorn supporter, i'd be pissed off with their ruck performance because they failed to really influence the game like they should've. Which is a tick for our part-timers and midfielders.

Going back to your initial deflection....again. You don't respond to that because you can't.
Every week without fail Pittonet gets more hitouts to advantage compared to TDK who gets slightly more than SOJ who all dominate over Young.

You've tried using the '2nd midfield' comments which has been disproven.
Now you're ignoring it altogether.

To recap. Young had a mere 1 hitout to advantage from 61 ruck contests. Why was that the case? Why did Jack have so much more?


Summary...
vs Gold Coast.
Pittonet+TDK vs Witts+Casboult
32 hitouts vs 59 hitouts - dominated in the ruck?
but...
12 HTA vs 13 HTA - A lot of hitouts that meant nothing, and the ones that mattered were even.
12.2% vs 12.7% - RC-HTA%  - Call it a draw despite dominate ruck stats in hitouts.....but we know they mean nothing.

vs Hawks
SOJ+Young vs Meek+Reeves
26 vs 61 hitouts - Dominated the ruck
8 vs 12 - making them count when we get them.
8.2% vs 11.5% - RC-HTA% - Call that a win for the hawks, but not total domination like the hitouts suggest.
----
However....
Jack - 36 RCs, 12 HOs, 6 HTA - 19.4%
Young-  61 RCs, 14 HOs 1 HTA - 1.6%

Answer me this.....
If we used the same midfield throughout the game (which we did) why is there so much difference between Jacks ability to get a hitout vs Youngs in the same game?

Same midfield. Drastically different results. Clearly not the midfield, but rather the rucks themselves.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #565 –
Quote from: LP – on
So HtA is down to and dependant on the Mids being able to make themselves enough clear space to win possession and dispose of the ball, but it's a ruck stat!



Hmmmmmm, are you really supposed to be on my side of the debate? :o

You went too soon. Look at the next post. Explain that if its about the mids.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #566 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
You went too soon. Look at the next post. Explain that if its about the mids.
No matter how hard you try, your Freudian slip exposed the conflict between what you really believe and what you spin! That's your subconscious trying to escape the smoke, you can try to bury it in a mound of gibberish, but you can't ever take it back.

Feel free to keep painting your turd gold and presenting it from a thousand different angles, but it's still a turd!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #567 –
Quote from: LP – on
No matter how hard you try, your Freudian slip exposed the conflict between what you really believe and what you spin! That's your subconscious trying to escape the smoke, you can try to bury it in a mound of gibberish, but you can't ever take it back.

Feel free to keep painting your turd gold and presenting it from a thousand different angles, but it's still a turd!

Keep avoiding legitimate questions and misinterpreting almost everything i say. Its been working well for you so far.

My 'freudian slip' had already been explained long before you believe it was a freudian slip.
Its all there....multiple times on these pages if you care to actually read.

Everytime it gets too hard for you to make up some BS arguments call, you yell 'fake news' and try and deflect rather than answer legitimate questions.

You are allowed to be wrong. Just embrace it.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #568 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
If it was directly to Bailey Smith and Cripps was close enough to get the ball before he got to him, then it would never have been a hitout to advantage to begin with. You need to have enough time to dispose of the ball and essentially not get pinned for holding the ball if you are tackled.

This is a common misconception which is why people (like LP) cannot get their head around. It is not enough getting it directly to a player, they need to have enough time to dispose of it successfully as well.

I suggest that you re-visit the official definition of hitout to advantage. 

In that scenario, English would be credited with a hitout to advantage, Smith would be credited with a first possession and Cripps would get the clearance.

Incidentally, if Cripps handpassed to Walsh, Walsh handpassed to Kennedy and Kennedy kicked the ball directly to Caleb Daniel, Cripps would be credited with the clearance.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball
 

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #569 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I suggest that you re-visit the official definition of hitout to advantage. 

In that scenario, English would be credited with a hitout to advantage, Smith would be credited with a first possession and Cripps would get the clearance.

Incidentally, if Cripps handpassed to Walsh, Walsh handpassed to Kennedy and Kennedy kicked the ball directly to Caleb Daniel, Cripps would be credited with the clearance.
I contacted Champion Data directly and got their definition which have posted previously.
Its only a hitout to advantage if a player has enough time to dispose of the ball correctly.
If he gets tackled immediately, he does not have prior opportunity, no free kick tackle for a tackle is given because there was no advantage in getting him the ball as he didn't have an opportunity to do so.