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Re: General Discussions

Reply #2025 –
TLDR. 

Welcome to country = pointless.  I don't pay attention to it anymore.  Its like the terms and conditions in something I've already decided I'm signing up to.  Skip to end, accept.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2026 –
At my workplace, Acknowledging the TO's at the start of every meeting is compulsory.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2027 –
It’s tedious bollocks.
It improves no one’s life.
The capital city socialists might feel great about it but it does nothing for people from Maningrida, Larrikia or Belyouen and they’re the ones who need help.
I’ll tolerate it for “events”.
Let’s go BIG !

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2028 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
At my workplace, Acknowledging the TO's at the start of every meeting is compulsory.
That reminds me of those vintage videos showing school kids in Japan starting their day!

"You will believe!"
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2029 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
At my workplace, Acknowledging the TO's at the start of every meeting is compulsory.
That reminds me of those vintage videos showing school kids in Japan starting their day!

"You will believe!"

I vividly recall similar 'rituals' at the catholic pre and primary school I attended as littlun to this, apparent, benevolent god... then the nuns would beat the shizen out of us with their whip-like canes for the slightest indiscretion!
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2030 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
It’s tedious bollocks.
It improves no one’s life.
The capital city socialists might feel great about it but it does nothing for people from Maningrida, Larrikia or Belyouen and they’re the ones who need help.
I’ll tolerate it for “events”.

I can see that the acknowledgement is important to indigenous folks but could have been made far more impactful and meaningful if it were, say, a week of celebration, annually. But I agree with you that it is of little effect if it is not following up with practical and effective actions to improve the lives of indigenous folks.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2031 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I can see that the acknowledgement is important to indigenous folks but could have been made far more impactful and meaningful if it were, say, a week of celebration, annually. But I agree with you that it is of little effect if it is not following up with practical and effective actions to improve the lives of indigenous folks.

Not heard of NAIDOC Week Shane?

Clearly, an annual week of celebrating Indigenous cultures does little to raise awareness or materially improve Indigenous wellbeing, but it does have intangible benefits for Indigenous folk, such as improved self esteem.

Acknowledgement of traditional owners and welcomes to country may not have material benefits but they are important to Indigenous Australians.  But why should we change history and do something that Indigenous Australians want?  Non-Indigenous Australians obviously know what’s best for Indigenous Australians.

If we’re going to drop acknowledgements and welcomes, we may as well drop playing the national anthem and all of the other symbolic observances that have little material benefit but perhaps just contribute a little to social cohesion.

It’s worth delving into who and what is behind the campaign to drop welcomes to country …
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2032 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I vividly recall similar 'rituals' at the catholic pre and primary school I attended as littlun to this, apparent, benevolent god... then the nuns would beat the shizen out of us with their whip-like canes for the slightest indiscretion!
Yep, historically society turns some "science of the day" or a pseudo-scientific practice into a religion, you should strongly associate such practises with alarm and be alert accordingly.

Interestingly, @Thryleon might have some views on this that go even further, he has often discussed the need to remain sceptical of societies various mysticisms. I've had a few debates with Thry about what I believe is the more extreme on some issues, both sides of the debates can be irrational, but questioning something is a basic right.

Going back to "The Welcome", we are lectured about how "Nobody owns the land" or we are frequently reminded that "We are only the lands custodian", then we are given instruction to honour a pledge to "Traditional Owners", are the alarm bells ringing any louder, am I allowed to question the wording?

If we highlight such contradictions we are labelled racist, if I was paranoid about that label I'd have to ask "Is the language, label and accusation accidental?"

Science makes a hypothesis then continually questions everything until the likely possibilities are excluded or diminished. I've had associates threatened with loss of funding just for posing a question that challenges the consensus, that's not following the science or evidence, that sort of threat comes from a cult.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2033 –
Quote from: LP – on
Going back to "The Welcome", we are lectured about how "Nobody owns the land" or we are frequently reminded that "We are only the lands custodian", then we are given instruction to honour a pledge to "Traditional Owners", are the alarm bells ringing any louder, am I allowed to question the wording?

If we highlight such contradictions we are labelled racist, if I was paranoid about that label I'd have to ask "Is the language, label and accusation accidental?"

"Traditional Owner" is a term introduced by non-Indigenous Australians in order to shoehorn Indigenous connections to land into a Western legal framework.  Indigenous relationships to land are complex.  While one clan may "own" an estate in the Western sense, members of other clans may have access to places within that clan estate and may have obligations to "manage" other places.  Furthermore, rights to land are often linked to complex kinship systems and marriage rules.  The Mt William axe quarry north of Melbourne is an example of that with men from other clans, who married members of the resident clan, gaining the rights to quarry and distribute axe stones.  For convenience, we non-Indigenous Australians simply lump all of that together under Traditional Owner.

And what is this "pledge" to Traditional Owners that we are meant to honour?  Is that something in addition to paying respect? 
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2034 –
There are numerous lawyers, judges, senators, academics and other professionals that sit as members of various indigenous councils, I doubt we have lumped anything on them, they aren't victims of white-fella oppression, many of them exist and circulate in far more elite company than "Joe Average" Australia.

I doubt "we" force them to use any specific language or description, I doubt "we" even authored it, although somebody in bureaucracy somewhere probably has to tick it off.

There are so many such contradictions and claims, most do not stand up.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2035 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I can see that the acknowledgement is important to indigenous folks but could have been made far more impactful and meaningful if it were, say, a week of celebration, annually. But I agree with you that it is of little effect if it is not following up with practical and effective actions to improve the lives of indigenous folks.
Baggers lets be honest and call a spade a spade, the only reason its important to indigenous folks is because the the $$$ that go with it. The reasoning and symbolism of it all has been lost to the corporate dollar and opportunism.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2036 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Baggers lets be honest and call a spade a spade, the only reason its important to indigenous folks is because the the $$$ that go with it. The reasoning and symbolism of it all has been lost to the corporate dollar and opportunism.

Acknowledgement of TOs costs nothing but thirty seconds of people’s time.

I saw your previous comment about TO acknowledgements being compulsory at your workplace and I think that’s wrong.  However, that’s management’s decision and not something imposed by Indigenous folk.

After 14 years, I recently walked away from delivering a keynote session on the first day of a 12 month course for Victorian TOs.  Every other speaker started with an acknowledgment of TOs.  My talk included an acknowledgment of particular elders that I had worked with and I believe that my audience appreciated that far more than the formulaic acknowledgment.

I don’t have a problem with folk being paid for welcomes to country.  Everyone else expects to be paid for their time, and so they should.  Of course, as I mentioned before, many TOs are happy to perform welcomes or smoking ceremonies gratis.  For them, the cultural benefits outweigh any financial rewards.

LP refers to Indigenous Australians who have tertiary qualifications, are members of parliament, or are judges.  I can add archaeologists, doctors, lawyers, nurses, psychologists, architects, police, firies, park rangers, musicians, actors, athletes, mechanics, labourers, footballers, brewers, criminals, beggars, pensioners, NDIS beneficiaries, conmen, prostitutes, TV presenters, actors, journalists, transsexuals, homosexuals, Muslims, Christians, animists and the whole gamut of people in society generally.  Indigenous Australians aren’t a homogeneous group and the organisations that they form and/or utilise aren’t all the same.

A close friend of mine was one of the first Aboriginal archaeologists to graduate.  He has worked for government and has his own very successful consultancy business with clients across the country.  His TO organisation claims part of NW Victoria and it refuses government funding and offers free advice to local government about cultural heritage matters, and he doesn’t charge for very informative and entertaining welcomes to country.

To be perfectly frank, welcomes to country represent a relatively small component of the income stream of Indigenous organisations.  Folk see Colin Hunter doing his thing at the G and think that it’s a big earner for the Wurundjeri-Woiwurrung TOs.  It’s not!  Aunty Joy Murphy-Wandin, who did the G welcomes before Colin, understood the importance of the symbolism of welcomes to country and was motivated more by establishing acceptance of her people’s claim to country than any payment.

It’s always fraught to make assumptions about the values and motivations of folk on the basis of their ethnicity, cultural affinity and/or Sky News commentary 🙄
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2037 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Acknowledgement of TOs costs nothing but thirty seconds of people’s time.
Organisations are being charged $thousands for including welcome ceremonies, whether your associates do this or not is irrelevant, the reality is that it is or has been happening and it's a disgrace. For an organisation like Melbourne Storm it can cost more than $100K a season, most of us do not think of such amounts as "nothing"!

The public has been badgered and belittled, guilted into social compliance, to publicly acknowledge "Ownership", an event that has now became a socially expected norm, with a fee added which some describe as a goodwill payment.

Do it for free, if not declare it as a sponsored political statement like any other political ad, because that what it has become on many occasions.

The general public didn't screw this up the custodians of the welcome practise have let it rot, they have failed the culture governance test!

The solution is to first acknowledge the process is broken, then fix it rather than blaming the observers / public.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2038 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: DJC – on
Acknowledgement of TOs costs nothing but thirty seconds of people’s time.
Organisations are being charged $thousands for including welcome ceremonies, whether your associates do this or not is irrelevant, the reality is that it is or has been happening and it's a disgrace. For an organisation like Melbourne Storm it can cost more than $100K a season, most of us do not think of such amounts as "nothing"!

The public has been badgered and belittled, guilted into social compliance, to publicly acknowledge "Ownership", an event that has now became a socially expected norm, with a fee added which some describe as a goodwill payment.

Do it for free, if not declare it as a sponsored political statement like any other political ad, because that what it has become on many occasions.

The general public didn't screw this up the custodians of the welcome practise have let it rot, they have failed the culture governance test!

The solution is to first acknowledge the process is broken, then fix it rather than blaming the observers / public.

Read what I wrote and don't make stuff up.

An acknowledgement of TOs is done by the host, does not involve Indigenous people and costs nothing but the time of the person who makes the acknowledgement.

As we're dealing with Storm and the G, Welcome to Country ceremonies will be performed by elders from the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Cultural Heritage Aboriginal Corporation.  Their website details the services provided and the fees charged.  A Welcome to Country ceremony will set you back $730.00.

For an organisation like Storm or the AFL, that's petty cash.  In fact, the fireworks they set off after a try probably cost significantly more.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2039 –
Most folks can do without the Welcome to Country.
They can do without the National Anthem.
They show amazing restraint....
They just want the footy to start. :D