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Re: General Discussions

Reply #2040
Most folks can do without the Welcome to Country.
They can do without the National Anthem.
They show amazing restraint....
They just want the footy to start. :D

Our crowds are remarkably tolerant Lods … Colin’s welcomes always get a solid round of applause and the minute’s silence during ANZAC round is always just that.

But Welcomes and Anthems should be special occasions only, and the AFL has got that right.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2041
A Welcome to Country ceremony will set you back $730.00.

For an organisation like Storm or the AFL, that's petty cash.  In fact, the fireworks they set off after a try probably cost significantly more.
I don't give a stuff what the websites claim, that published fee is a 10th of what I've been told it really costs directly from a person who writes the cheque / does the transfer, and that direct cost excludes things like the compliance cost clubs must bear to get people and sometimes the fire of a smoking ceremony onto the playing surface.

Clubs get hit with travel, subsistence, accommodation, pretty much every junket fee you can imagine.

It cost just short of $3000 to have a Welcome Ceremony held at our local suburban footy final, $730 is dead-set taking the piss! The ceremony was conducted in Melbourne SE, and the person doing the welcome came from Warrnambool, don't ask me how that works but it feels like a footy funded family reunion!

On an aside, I've a builder mate who had to have his property development approved by the local indigenous council. They charge a lot just to walk up to a tree then walk off and state it's sacred land, FFS the tree they identified was a remnant from a Christmas tree farm! Then they kindly offered to performed some sort of cleansing ceremony to allow him to develop the land, that one went to 5 figures, it's a scam! He had enough dollars to fight the claim and won, but many do not, they are held hostage by bureaucracy or fear or retribution. And yes, I'm probably biased but with good reason! btw., Those indigenous council's members involved are now apparently under investigation for a string of alleged corruption, but the local council still did not have enough guts to approve the development without resistance, the legal liability minefield has become a joke! The council brought in another "specialist" to assess the earlier tree claim, and the official answer was "Well, it could be sacred!" All through the challenge, my mate had to walk a woke media minefield, wearing all sorts of labels associated with colonial atrocities of the far distant past.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2042

I don't give a stuff what the websites claim, that published fee is a 10th of what I've been told it really costs directly from a person who writes the cheque / does the transfer, and that direct cost excludes things like the compliance cost clubs must bear to get people and sometimes the fire of a smoking ceremony onto the playing surface.

Clubs get hit with travel, subsistence, accommodation, pretty much every junket fee you can imagine.

It cost just short of $3000 to have a Welcome Ceremony held at our local suburban footy final, $730 is dead-set taking the piss! The ceremony was conducted in Melbourne SE, and the person doing the welcome came from Warrnambool, don't ask me how that works but it feels like a footy funded family reunion!

On an aside, I've a builder mate who had to have his property development approved by the local indigenous council. They charge a lot just to walk up to a tree then walk off and state it's sacred land, FFS the tree they identified was a remnant from a Christmas tree farm! Then they kindly offered to performed some sort of cleansing ceremony to allow him to develop the land, that one went to 5 figures, it's a scam! He had enough dollars to fight the claim and won, but many do not, they are held hostage by bureaucracy or fear or retribution. And yes, I'm probably biased but with good reason! btw., Those indigenous council's members involved are now apparently under investigation for a string of alleged corruption, but the local council still did not have enough guts to approve the development without resistance, the legal liability minefield has become a joke! The council brought in another "specialist" to assess the earlier tree claim, and the official answer was "Well, it could be sacred!" All through the challenge, my mate had to walk a woke media minefield, wearing all sorts of labels associated with colonial atrocities of the far distant past.

I don't give a stuff about what you make up LP.  I'm dealing with the facts.

Depending on where in SE Melbourne your local footy club is, the welcome would have been performed by a Bunurong or Wurundjeri elder, not someone from Warrnambool.  If the club did pay someone to come from Warrnambool it wasn't a welcome to country.

Fees for smoking ceremonies, etc are all set out on the website.

As I'm sure you remember, I managed the Aboriginal cultural heritage management plan process in Victoria from it's inception until my retirement.  Certain developments may require the preparation of cultural heritage management plans by qualified archaeologists or similar and, if so, decision makers cannot grant permits, approvals, etc until the plan is approved by the Registered Aboriginal Party (RAP; TO group appointed under State legislation) and lodged with the State Government.  The process is very strictly controlled and the examples you give simply cannot happen.  RAPs do not approve developments, they are involved in one aspect of the land use planning process and it is local governments or other statutory authorities that grant or refuse permission to develop.

Prior to the introduction of the current legislation, an Aboriginal man, who was associated with a TO group by marriage, claimed that a tree on a property that was scheduled for development was a scarred tree - not a "sacred tree" - that is, a tree that has had bark removed for making a canoe, shield, etc.  I investigated and found that the tree was a Western Australian species that had been planted 30-40 years previously and could not possibly be significant in accordance with Aboriginal tradition.  The development was able to proceed.  If a similar claim was made today, the people responsible for verifying the claim are highly skilled and could identify a Christmas Tree without needing to do an on site visit.

Of course, some developers try to get around the process (as we saw with the IBAC investigation into Casey) and some Registered Aboriginal Parties haven't acted in good faith as the legislation requires.  RAPs that don't act in good faith can be suspended or banned completely, and the office bearers prosecuted under whatever legislation their organisation is incorporated and/or criminal law.  That has happened three times since 2006 and that's probably way under par when you consider the corruption that is rife among developers, the building industry, local governments and State Government officials.

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2043
My work place gets charged for every attendance of every RAP for any reason/purpose. My wife's school contacted the local RAP to come and do something for the kids, they wanted to charge 800 odd dollars but the principal couldn't afford it.
A mate got charged $5900 for a cultural heritage assessment for a 3 townhouse project in the northern suburbs.
I guess it's a business like anything else, good gig if you can get it. My only issue is that in the instances where its forced upon you, the fees are the fees.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2044
Of course, some developers try to get around the process (as we saw with the IBAC investigation into Casey) and some Registered Aboriginal Parties haven't acted in good faith as the legislation requires.  RAPs that don't act in good faith can be suspended or banned completely, and the office bearers prosecuted under whatever legislation their organisation is incorporated and/or criminal law.  That has happened three times since 2006 and that's probably way under par when you consider the corruption that is rife among developers, the building industry, local governments and State Government officials.
There is no doubt there are crooks on both sides, and it's been widely publicised, whether prosecutions follow is largely irrelevant. I suspect in many cases involving publicly facing entities there are many good reason why they might not want to proceed, the blow-back is significant.

The people rorting both sides are not what you might describe as rational, and I doubt that lecturing or training them on the law makes much difference, if it did they wouldn't be rorting in the first place.

The idea, suggestion or hint that the wrong doing is unilateral is an absurdity, but that is often how it is presented.

I feel sorry for people doing the right thing, because they are usually the ones suffering the rort. The crook developers aren't the ones to ever call in the cultural consultants, they mostly just proceed and wear the fines as a cost of doing business. But that is a whole different issue that also relates to different cultures.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2045
My work place gets charged for every attendance of every RAP for any reason/purpose. My wife's school contacted the local RAP to come and do something for the kids, they wanted to charge 800 odd dollars but the principal couldn't afford it.
A mate got charged $5900 for a cultural heritage assessment for a 3 townhouse project in the northern suburbs.
I guess it's a business like anything else, good gig if you can get it. My only issue is that in the instances where its forced upon you, the fees are the fees.
Yes, end users seem to regularly experience events very differently from what DJC suggests. I fully understand DJC point about the guidelines or scheduled fees, but it looks to me they are at best fairly weakly applied.

DJC is talking about people who do the right thing, I'm talking about those who don't!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2046
If the club did pay someone to come from Warrnambool it wasn't a welcome to country.
Well the club or association that arranged it thought it was, it was a fully choreographed display through the normal process, an elderly person done up in special garb and a bunch of young kids painted up and dancing. The elder was said to be a former local who was now living in Warrnambool, I'm assuming with some association to one of the clubs involved. The clubs of course have a lot of indigenous players, most of the clubs have player who move between local and the NT league. They're all aunts and uncles are they? Yes I'm taking the piss! :o

There was nothing wrong with the ceremony itself, but it was costly not "nothing".

I bet a lot of people would love that hourly rate!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2047
The two most abhorrent hourly rate fees I have seen on my current project is RAPs and Fauna Spotters (the latter wins that race BTW).
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2048
The two most abhorrent hourly rate fees I have seen on my current project is RAPs and Fauna Spotters.
I'm cognisant of the need to have this stuff administered judiciously, but that is also my point.

Do the dodgy as a developer and ACA come to your doorstep Kent Brockman / Fox News style, yet systematically rip off people or organisations under some indigenous scheme and the media and people are mostly too afraid to discuss it for fear of being labelled racist.

We are all equal are we?

The labels are too easy to throw around, the peak bodies are too trusting, the scams are too often ignored, remaining cynical seems to be the only choice and that is quite sad.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2049
Ignoring all the argy bargy above, the Warrnambool bit strikes some relevance with the fires today, I have friends and family over Grampians way, and if anyone else has them too, I hope that they are all safe and well.

One associate was nearly killed a few years back while fighting fires at The Gap.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2050
My work place gets charged for every attendance of every RAP for any reason/purpose. My wife's school contacted the local RAP to come and do something for the kids, they wanted to charge 800 odd dollars but the principal couldn't afford it.
A mate got charged $5900 for a cultural heritage assessment for a 3 townhouse project in the northern suburbs.
I guess it's a business like anything else, good gig if you can get it. My only issue is that in the instances where its forced upon you, the fees are the fees.

If a school engaged a wildlife person to bring some critters to the school, how much would that cost? 

A cultural heritage assessment is carried out by a heritage advisor.  Generally, members of the RAP will take part in the assessment and will charge for their time. However, 3 or more dwellings on a small lot - less than 0.11 hectares - is an exempt activity and doesn't require a cultural heritage management plan.

Cultural heritage management plan evaluation fees are set by Regulation.  RAPs have to charge the set fee but they can waive the fee for a cultural heritage permit.

It is a business.  RAPs have to pay staff and their entitlements, professional development, rent, insurance, accountants, auditors, lawyers, vehicles, etc, the same as any business.  
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2051
Ignoring all the argy bargy above, the Warrnambool bit strikes some relevance with the fires today, I have friends and family over Grampians way, and if anyone else has them too, I hope that they are all safe and well.

One associate was nearly killed a few years back while fighting fires at The Gap.

Same here LP - and I still have lots of mates on fire crews.  I hope they and all the other folk in the vicinity are safe.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2052
So just be clear, I love learning about our indigenous culture. I have been in many settings/meetings where I feel I have come out of it having learnt something and being enlightened. I come from a background where I was taught nothing about it at school. FFS I only just learnt that my high school "houses" were named after four prominent indigenous people, Nicholls, Blair, Saunders and Onus. I had no idea at the time. I have seen some brilliant welcome to countrys at events which I felt were warm, genuine and meaningful. Then I have seen or read about some awful ones where the welcomer had a chip on his shoulder and people were left underwhelmed. The welcomes Uncle Colin trots out every time are repetitive, scripted and meaningless to me. Be genuine, meaningful, chuck in a quick relevant story even and above all be welcoming and I'm all ears.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2053
Nicholls, Blair, Saunders and Onus!

I think it was in form 2 that our English teacher walked into the classroom with a little black man who proceeded to make the most impassioned plea about his people’s plight and what we could do about it.  I met Pastor Sir Doug many years later and tried to explain how that talk had influenced my life.  Sadly, his dementia was quite advanced and he didn’t understand what I was trying to say.

Harold Blair passed away at a relatively young age but I knew his daughter Nerida. 

I met Reg Saunders once and he was a very impressive man.  There’s a story about an American officer asking Australian troops how they feel about having a black officer and being just a little shocked at their great respect for him.

Bill Onus passed away when I was very young but I do remember watching his “Alcheringa” series of documentaries about Aboriginal culture.

Nice work by your school G2C but it reflects the attitude of the times; honour four outstanding people but don’t listen to their stories.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2054
Nicholls, Blair, Saunders and Onus!

I think it was in form 2 that our English teacher walked into the classroom with a little black man who proceeded to make the most impassioned plea about his people’s plight and what we could do about it.  I met Pastor Sir Doug many years later and tried to explain how that talk had influenced my life.  Sadly, his dementia was quite advanced and he didn’t understand what I was trying to say.

Harold Blair passed away at a relatively young age but I knew his daughter Nerida. 

I met Reg Saunders once and he was a very impressive man.  There’s a story about an American officer asking Australian troops how they feel about having a black officer and being just a little shocked at their great respect for him.

Bill Onus passed away when I was very young but I do remember watching his “Alcheringa” series of documentaries about Aboriginal culture.

Nice work by your school G2C but it reflects the attitude of the times; honour four outstanding people but don’t listen to their stories.
6 years at the school and no one told us who the houses were named after let alone that they were great indigenous men. Since learning about this only recently, I think about this often and feel cheated.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership