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Topic: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon (Read 29082 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #60 –
Yes I agree DJC. I get the feeling it's a real issue for the club and one they wrestle with on a game-by-game basis.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #61 –
I should also add that, whilst we have the luxury of whiling away the hours making various arguments, the club IMO, does not. The ruck would be one of dozens of decisions they need to make, and any of those decisions could sway the game one way or the other. I'm quite certain we have both won and lost games where the number of rucks has had no bearing on the outcome.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #62 –
Freo currently have the same problem, Melbourne had it last year.

2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #63 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Freo currently have the same problem, Melbourne had it last year.

Yes, no doubt. What are your thoughts on the Cox/Cameron combo at Collingwood ?

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #64 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Freo currently have the same problem, Melbourne had it last year.

It didn't worry Freo against Gawn last round and it hasn't been a problem for Essendon this season.

I think that it comes down in part to the opposition but mainly how the two rucks are utilised.  If we can get the best out of Pitto and Tom (as against Melbourne and GWS), play both of them.  If one or both aren't contributing (as against the Swans), play one.  But how do you predict that?

I've heard both Tom and Pitto talk about how well they work together and how whoever is playing better gets to do the lion's share, but I'm not entirely sure that works all the time.  If we're playing both, we need to have plans for several scenarios.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #65 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
I remember.....I went into football shock after we lost.
I have it etched in my brain, I rarely care who is in or out for the opposite because of that one fateful day. Three flags in a row (93, 94, 95) went down the toilet in that period and it haunts me a little to this day.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #66 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
I'd probably just play the one ruck and be backing Harry to break even with Wright.
If Draper was playing along with Goldstein. then I would have gone with Pittonet and TDK.
FWIW I'd be backing TDK to jump all over Goldstein in the middle and give us first use.
Goldy is a pretty crafty operator, his legs may fading but his ruck mind is sharp as a tack.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #67 –
For me I cant wait to finally see the McKay twins go at it. Bragging rights at stake and I dare say some interesting tactics and antics might be dragged out of their kit bags.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #68 –
That's the problem
It's not something that's measurable (one ruck, or two), because there are so many things that come into play.
You can look at win/losses, but that doesn't take into account the quaility of the opposition and a whole lot of other variables that occur during the length of a season, like venue, injury, form, fitness, training loads, roles, weather etc

Whichever way we go this weekend the result will determine the direction of the debate for the next week.
And one option or the other will get a boost ::)


Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #69 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
For me I cant wait to finally see the McKay twins go at it. Bragging rights at stake and I dare say some interesting tactics and antics might be dragged out of their kit bags.

Did you see Harry and Ben on the club website?

Ben was quite serious when asked about match ups and explained that defenders don't stay on the one opponent but he would probably spend time on Charlie.

Harry's response; "He's too good for you.  He'll kick ten.  You'd better come to me!"

Cracked me up!  :))
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #70 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Did you see Harry and Ben on the club website?

Ben was quite serious when asked about match ups and explained that defenders don't stay on the one opponent but he would probably spend time on Charlie.

Harry's response; "He's too good for you.  He'll kick ten.  You'd better come to me!"

Cracked me up!  :))

That was hilarious.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #71 –
Quote from: Lods – on
That's the problem
It's not something that's measurable (one ruck, or two), because there are so many things that come into play.
You can look at win/losses, but that doesn't take into account the quaility of the opposition and a whole lot of other variables that occur during the length of a season, like venue, injury, form, fitness, training loads, roles, weather etc

Whichever way we go this weekend the result will determine the direction of the debate for the next week.
And one option or the other will get a boost ::)

The only thing you can really confirm is what i've already said.
That is
- The amount of time a ruck plays on the bench and the extra load that puts on the other guys picking up the slack with extra minutes.
- The ruck stats (HTA-RC%) of 2 vs 1 ruck games
- Possessions of 2 rucks vs 1 ruck comparisons (extra (dis)advantage around the ground.

The rest is up for debate.....and has been....repeatedly.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #72 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
The only thing you can really confirm is what i've already said.
That is
- The amount of time a ruck plays on the bench and the extra load that puts on the other guys picking up the slack with extra minutes.
- The ruck stats (HTA-RC%) of 2 vs 1 ruck games
- Possessions of 2 rucks vs 1 ruck comparisons (extra (dis)advantage around the ground.

The rest is up for debate.....and has been....repeatedly.

Yep
But there are a heap of variables that come into play and affect the overall picture.
Just as an example....

We play Binns instead of Pittonet.
A young bloke still finding his feet, he ends up with a dozen possessions.
The extra runner provides a  bit of extra spell for some of our mids.
But we lose all of the contribution to the mids that Pittonet would generate.
It's never a case of "all gain and no loss".
That's the balance you have to determine as a coaching group.

How significant is that extra rest a runner provides?
Do players like Cripps and Walsh's onfield time reduce significantly because of the extra runner on the bench?
Given that the breaks would be spred over most of our runners, how much extra rest does each actually get?
What is the effect of reducing the game time of our prime movers?
They get a bit of extra rest and that may be beneficial.
But if they're not out there, we lose their influence.
Whose going to spend the most time on the bench.?
There's a fair chance it's the fringe player or one of his ilk.

It's not just a case of extra runner, extra rest.
It's much more complicated than that, and why, when working these combinations out, you need a good bit of football knowledge and experience.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #73 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Yep
But there are a heap of variables that come into play and affect the overall picture.
Just as an example....

We play Binns instead of Pittonet.
A young bloke still finding his feet, he ends up with a dozen possessions.
The extra runner provides a  bit of extra spell for some of our mids.
But we lose all of the contribution to the mids that Pittonet would generate.
It's never a case of "all gain and no loss".
That's the balance you have to determine as a coaching group.

How significant is that extra rest a runner provides?
Do players like Cripps and Walsh's onfield time reduce significantly because of the extra runner on the bench?
Given that the breaks would be spred over most of our runners, how much extra rest does each actually get?
What is the effect of reducing the game time of our prime movers?
They get a bit of extra rest and that may be beneficial.
But if they're not out there, we lose their influence.
Whose going to spend the most time on the bench.?
There's a fair chance it's the fringe player or one of his ilk.

It's not just a case of extra runner, extra rest.
It's much more complicated than that, and why, when working these combinations out, you need a good bit of football knowledge and experience.


For mine it's not about the rucks it's about the rest.

Often we go two rucks, and pick all the true key position players as well.  With only weitering down back, we can play 2 rucks.

If we play one of marchbank or young, then we can't.

Like kruddler says its about balance.

Mcgovern, Kemp and Newman tend to give us that height from a key tall without being restricted to key talls and provide plenty of run. 

Then with Charlie if vossy wants to throw a cat amongst the pigeons he could drag him up to a wing and put Tom forward. 

I'm happier with one ruck in, but so long as fogarty is playing I feel ok.  He's become the talisman.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #74 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Yep
But there are a heap of variables that come into play and affect the overall picture.
Just as an example....

We play Binns instead of Pittonet.
A young bloke still finding his feet, he ends up with a dozen possessions.
The extra runner provides a  bit of extra spell for some of our mids.
But we lose all of the contribution to the mids that Pittonet would generate.
It's never a case of "all gain and no loss".
That's the balance you have to determine as a coaching group.

How significant is that extra rest a runner provides?
Do players like Cripps and Walsh's onfield time reduce significantly because of the extra runner on the bench?
Given that the breaks would be spred over most of our runners, how much extra rest does each actually get?
What is the effect of reducing the game time of our prime movers?
They get a bit of extra rest and that may be beneficial.
But if they're not out there, we lose their influence.
Whose going to spend the most time on the bench.?
There's a fair chance it's the fringe player or one of his ilk.

It's not just a case of extra runner, extra rest.
It's much more complicated than that, and why, when working these combinations out, you need a good bit of football knowledge and experience.

Too many questions to answer them all but the short version is this.

Everyone gets slightly more rest.
The extra small, gives us rotations not only through the bench but also up forward (or down back).
So Cripps doesn't necessarily have to rest on the bench, you can plonk him at FF for a few minutes at a time and then he is on the ground whenever you need him, rather than stuck on the bench.
Kennedy can go forward for large parts of the game and then do bursts on the ball.
Williams can do similar.
You can even use Fantasia further up the ground in bursts too.

More players = more rest = more 'bursts' = more pressure.

Of course the down side is you can burn out your ruck a bit more, but we've got a fresh one to bring in next week if we need too. ;)

If we ended up doing a swap of rucks every other week we could actually get more out of our #1 ruck each week as a result as they don't get ground down by the pressure of backing up each week.

As a club, we are at our best when we are pressuring.
When we struggle, its because we lack speed and run.
A small over a tall fixes both those problems.