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Topic: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon (Read 18200 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #75 –
Quote from: Lods – on
It's not just a case of extra runner, extra rest.
It's much more complicated than that, and why, when working these combinations out, you need a good bit of football knowledge and experience.

And that’s why Vossy and his assistants are paid quite well to ensure that we put the best possible combination on the park each round.

If it was up to me, we’d go with two ruckmen unless there was a compelling reason not to, such as weather, time of day, form and opposition.  However, at least one of those ruckmen has to be able make a decent contribution in a secondary role and both have to do more than just take part in ruck contests.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #76 –
When discussing risks and costs to the team when running two rucks, it can't be ignored the there are risks and costs to the team when running one ruck, there is no free lunch.

Tactics have to be sustainable all season long and viable for finals!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #77 –
Quote from: LP – on
When discussing risks and costs to the team when running two rucks, it can't be ignored the there are risks and costs to the team when running one ruck, there is no free lunch.

Tactics have to be sustainable all season long and viable for finals!
Your solo ruckman goes down in the first 15 mins and you're in trouble! One of your twin towers is displaced and Cripps and Kennedy are left to pick up the ruck scraps. It's a calculated risk!!

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #78 –
It's a vexxed question this one or two ruckmen.

Seems to moi that every argument for two and every argument for one, is valid and reasonable. I don't envy the MC on this one. Thing is, I believe, both blokes are rippers and really good within their skill sets... which are different! What a terrific problem.

Horses for courses? Perhaps against cheats.com.au this Sunday we replace Fantasia (who really is not doing a great deal at present) with Pitto? Not like for like, but perhaps this is the game to do it. Carroll remains as sub, or maybe this is the game to have Billy as the sub... bit of later speed over the grass?
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #79 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
It's a vexxed question this one or two ruckmen.

Seems to moi that every argument for two and every argument for one, is valid and reasonable. I don't envy the MC on this one. Thing is, I believe, both blokes are rippers and really good within their skill sets... which are different! What a terrific problem.

Horses for courses? Perhaps against cheats.com.au this Sunday we replace Fantasia (who really is not doing a great deal at present) with Pitto? Not like for like, but perhaps this is the game to do it. Carroll remains as sub, or maybe this is the game to have Billy as the sub... bit of later speed over the grass?

Who then does Fantasia's linking up role, the Hollands brothers?

I'm not sure that Elijah has the tank and Ollie is required to run with an Essendon winger.  Having an extra tall (De Koning) in the forward line for periods would free up a small/medium forward so Elijah may get a workout.  That means one less midfielder in the rotation so Williams will have to provide a chop out there.

If we do go with Tom and Pitto, a hell of a lot of thought will have been put into how we make the best use of our extra tall and how we cover the loss of a midfielder/forward.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #80 –
If Langford is fit, can they play Wright, Langford, Cox and Jones as forwards? Seems pretty top heavy and would possibly leave us one short as far as tall defenders go? Jones has been in reasonable form this year and Cox bobbed up with 3 goals last week. If one of Kemp or McGovern goes to Stringer then there's an argument for maybe Marchbank or Young to come in....despite neither of them doing much in the VFL?

I think Stringer would be too hard a match up in the air for someone like Saad, Cowan or Newman?

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #81 –
Taking a runner away from rotation is bad news imo. We have more legs to hurt the oppo on the rebound as the game goes on. Don't think we will lose if we play two rucks all it does it takes runners away in rotation and score from turnover will fall down and need to depend on score from stoppages

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #82 –
That's the thing though isn't it.
If we're talking about it (2 rucks v 1 ruck) it's pretty certain the coaches are talking about it.
Voss gets asked about the situation pretty regularly
They'd be making considered judgements on a weekly  basis armed with a lot more information than we have.
The fact that we sometimes go with one and other times two is a decision they have to live with if the result doesn't always work in our favour.
It's probably a fair observation that if both are fit and firing we tend to use them both...but that may change as the season progresses.
 

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #83 –
Quote from: pinot – on
Taking a runner away from rotation is bad news imo. We have more legs to hurt the oppo on the rebound as the game goes on. Don't think we will lose if we play two rucks all it does it takes runners away in rotation and score from turnover will fall down and need to depend on score from stoppages
Having Pitto and TDK in is not as big a negative as it seems, because TDK is far more aerobic, agile and athletic than most other rucks. You might lose a little bit relative to another genuine Mid, but nowhere near as much as if we ran two Pitto types, and not that much compared to some typical utility.

Also, if our two are in form like they have been, it can force opposition to run two rucks and almost none of our opponents have a ruck option as mobile as TDK.

I read somewhere one of our coaches described just how much real bench time gets lost, the way it's distributed across the team means it may only be seconds each per quarter. Also, because the rest periods are not all equal, it may mean that someone like Weiters, Harry, Charlie or McGovern each get a few more seconds on the ground and Mids are not affected at all. The issue is not cut and dry.

Fans or broadcasters will sometimes highlight moments when a Cripps type gets stuck on the bench, and that can be related to more than team tactics or the pattern of play. The same applies to every other player including the rucks, it's not always the case a long rest is deliberately planned.

An opposition player, I can't recall who but I think it was from the Filth(Maybe Elliott), complained he spent more time sprinting on and off then he got as rest time, and the more rotations he had the more exhausting it was! His assertion was that bench time has become more tactical than rest related.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #84 –
Quote from: LP – on
Having Pitto and TDK in is not as big a negative as it seems, because TDK is far more aerobic, agile and athletic than most other rucks. You might lose a little bit relative to another genuine Mid, but nowhere near as much as if we ran two Pitto types, and not that much compared to some typical utility.

Just because you say it, and repeat it, doesn't make it true.

Have a look at the last game Pitto played where TDK spent most of his time forward.
Look at what he offered the side. He made Fantasia look like a superstar by comparison.
TDK vs Fantasia
Disposals - 6 vs 8
Scoring - 0.0 vs 0.1
Goal Assists - 0 vs 1
Score involvements - 2 vs 3
I50's - 1 vs 1
Marks - 1 vs 2
Tackles - 0 vs 3
Meters gained - 76 vs 203
Fantasy points - 18 vs 40
Pressure Acts - 8 vs 13
Hitouts - 3 vs 0
Hitouts to Adv - 0 vs 0

....and this is compariing against basically our worst player in Fantasia. Should i do a comparison against another mid??

TDK forward is not sustainable

TDK plays best as #1 ruck.
Yes, he has played some good games (this year) as backup ruck, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #85 –
Quote from: townsendcalling – on
Your solo ruckman goes down in the first 15 mins and you're in trouble! One of your twin towers is displaced and Cripps and Kennedy are left to pick up the ruck scraps. It's a calculated risk!!

I think that this situation is one that MUST be guarded against - especially in an elimination, preliminary or grand final.  Therefore, it seems crazy to not formulate (and perfect) ongoing plan/s to play two ruckmen - except when injury intervenes or the opposition represents no serious competitive threat in that area.

Given Pitto's comparative lack of positional options, the logical route would seem to have him take the bulk of the ruckwork early in the game with the option of replacing him with the substitute later in the game or when the need arises. 

To maximise TDK's potential impact when Pitto is rucking, we need to experiment with other ways to utilise TDK, e.g. as a tall defender (even Casboult developed into a better than average defender at one stage) or perhaps as a 'Richo-style' wingman.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #86 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
....and this is compariing against basically our worst player in Fantasia. Should i do a comparison against another mid??
We aren't stupid @kruddler, we can see you've cherry-picked the Sydney game data which was TDK's worst by 300% minimum and Fantasia's 2nd best for the season, it was also the worst result for a bunch of our other players this season.

When you lower yourself to these tactics to try and make a point you diminish your argument rather than assist it.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #87 –
Quote from: RiverRat – on
To maximise TDK's potential impact when Pitto is rucking, we need to experiment with other ways to utilise TDK, e.g. as a tall defender (even Casboult developed into a better than average defender at one stage) or perhaps as a 'Richo-style' wingman.
If TDK develops his marking in the same way Casboult then it's an option, but at the moment TDK's hands are hit and miss.

Even so, I'm not sure putting anyone in the way of Weitering or McGovern makes sense.

Pitto's great strength is his defensive positioning, it assists our D50 by forcing the opposition into certain zones, and he is more reliable when parked under the footy than TDK.

TDK needs to develop systems of separation with the KPFs that will divide opposition KPDs, but that also depends on the players kicking into D50 and that is another area we need to improve.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #88 –
I feel like this ruck debate has hijacked this thread. Can we create a separate thread for those that want to keep it going, I'm over it.

Re: AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

Reply #89 –
Quote from: pertz – on
I feel like this ruck debate has hijacked this thread. Can we create a separate thread for those that want to keep it going, I'm over it.

It's a fair point...
The 2 ruck v 1 ruck pervades a lot of threads.
I'm sure we have a relevant thread for that discussion somewhere.
If not we probably should create one.

It does have relevance to this weeks game though...along with our selections and sub strategy.
If Pittonet is available there is probably a decision needing to be made.
But we should probably treat  it in terms of this game only in this thread and not the long term.