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Re: It's now or never!

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Lods – on
What to do with Silvagni when he returns is an interesting question.

I see him as taking Kennedy's role.
The question though is... if everyone was fit would Kennedy be playing.

Silvagni is the ideal bench player (not sub), but a player who can provide rests for a number of different positions

TBH, i haven't got Kennedy in my best side when everyone else is fit....and that is excluding SOS and Doc.

I championed Kennedy to cover the Silvagni role (3rd tall......and even pinch hitting in the ruck!) and he has done just that. Offers more run by comparison, maybe, but not more leg speed. Both are slow.

I still think there is a need for a 3rd forward in the side and that is not TDK. We only need 1 ruck and if TDK is playing, it should be as #1 ruck or not at all. Yes, that has worked on the odd occasion, but we are actually 2-4 when he has played that role this year....that is all our losses has come when he has played as 3rd tall/backup ruck.

So SOS playing that role works a bit better than any other options on our list. People forget SOS kicked 4 against Port Adelaide last year, which is more than TDK or any other 3rd tall option has kicked for us.

So goes back to your original hypothesis.....who does SOS displace in the best 22.....if Kennedy isn't in it.

That depends on how many of our best 22 are actually fit.
I would expect the 'bottom 6' of our best 22 would include at least 2 (potentially 4) small forwards.....who would be the most likely given the lack of output we've seen by numerous different ones.

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #46 –
Lucky for TDK he's the number 1 ruck then hey!
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #48 –
I love SoJ as a true Bluebagger, but I fear that whatever direction we go in, TDK is already on a trajectory to pass SoJ bye as a viable 3rd forward as well as still being a premier ruck. Everybody could see this coming, only fans guarding their Favs have failed to admit it.

If I'm cold about it, I'd run rucks mostly off the bench and have Martin as the 3rd forward target well ahead of all other options.

I suspect Williams can cover Owies if they eventually go head to head, and I suspect Owies can probably cover Durdin, but Motlop has the potential to cover both Owies and Durdin. Right now Owies is Mr Reliable so he is something we desperately need.

Some of this is going to come about because Elijah Hollands has changed the Mid/Forward dynamic, I would be interesting to see what he can do alongside Martin or Motlop.

It's a long season, lots can change, but most of our AFL regulars list looks to be on the up.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #49 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Tell that to Vossy.

He either stays that way or he swaps him out for Pitto......not both.

That line of thinking is based on the assumption that something that hasn't worked in the past will never work.
Because Tom doesn't seem to have the same impact when he's playing 'second fiddle', we assume that will always be the case.
It's based on a very small sample.
It's based on no improvement and adjustment from DeKoning.
It ignores games like the GWS one where Tom was quiet effective with Pittonet rucking as well.

One of the criticisms of DeKoning last year was he didn't really contribute around the ground....that he was 'unrealised' potential.
Well twelve months later and that's not the case anymore.
Walsh and Cripps were quiet on the weekend...Would they have been as quiet with Pittonet rucking for some of the time.
Kennedy and Cripps contested a couple of contests and just ended up giving away free kicks.

I don't necessarily subscribe to either combination...but I don't disregard either outright.

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #50 –
Quote from: Lods – on
That line of thinking is based on the assumption that something that hasn't worked in the past will never work.
Maybe.

However, i'd prefer to think of it as THIS is what is working, and it hasn't been for a long time, so why try and change that? For what benefit?

People accuse me of playing favourites with Pittonet. That 'favouritism' was based on nothing more than output and stats.
TDK is putting in career best numbers right now, and i don't care if Pittonet is fully fit, I am not picking him. There is no reason to pick him.

I've said all along i couldn't give a stuff who our number 1 ruck is, as long as they are performing. Despite Pitto performing as well as he ever has this year, he lost his spot due to injury and that sucks for him, but he doesn't get back in until TDKs form drops (if it does).

The point is, that i don't want 2 rucks. We don't need 2 rucks. Nobody needs 2 rucks.
Some teams play better with 2 rucks because their team dynamic is different than ours.
Some teams will be more susceptible to 2 rucks (or 1 ruck) based off their own team dynamic.
However, we need to get teams to try and beat us.
When we play 1 ruck, we are tougher to beat.

People worry about our backup ruck getting injured in the ruck and use that as an excuse. Times are different now. That same player is more likely to get injured elsewhere around the ground than in the ruck. When was the last player to get injured in a ruck contest? I can't even remember.

1 ruck.
Right now its TDK.
EOS.

EDIT: Its similar to people who want TDK to play back. Why? We finally have him performing the way we want......why change it?

EDIT2: ...and right on queue...
10 - Tom De Koning (CARL)
7 - Elijah Hollands (CARL)
5 - Nic Martin (ESS)
3 - George Hewett (CARL)
2 - Alex Cincotta (CARL)
2 - Sam Durham (ESS)
1 - Jacob Weitering (CARL)

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #51 –
Quote from: kruddler – on

EDIT2: ...and right on queue...
10 - Tom De Koning (CARL)
7 - Elijah Hollands (CARL)
5 - Nic Martin (ESS)
3 - George Hewett (CARL)
2 - Alex Cincotta (CARL)
2 - Sam Durham (ESS)
1 - Jacob Weitering (CARL)


Coaches votes v GWS

10 - Patrick Cripps (CARL)
8 - Sam Walsh (CARL)
5 - Josh Kelly (GWS)
3 - Tom De Koning (CARL)
3 - Marc Pittonet (CARL)
1 - Matthew Kennedy (CARL)

 :D  :D  :D

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #52 –
You won't find anyone more pro-ruck than myself but I'm a bit surprised TDK got 10 votes, I thought he was spectacular at ground level and 2nd efforts but was largely beaten in the bulk of fundamental ruck work.

Goldstein went through a golden period for a Qtr and a half that basically brought CheatsFC back into the game.

I thought an even bigger problem for us last Sunday was that our 2nd ruck options were soundly beaten, when we didn't have TDK we basically lost all momentum.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #53 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
TBH, i haven't got Kennedy in my best side when everyone else is fit....and that is excluding SOS and Doc.

I championed Kennedy to cover the Silvagni role (3rd tall......and even pinch hitting in the ruck!) and he has done just that. Offers more run by comparison, maybe, but not more leg speed. Both are slow.

I still think there is a need for a 3rd forward in the side and that is not TDK. We only need 1 ruck and if TDK is playing, it should be as #1 ruck or not at all. Yes, that has worked on the odd occasion, but we are actually 2-4 when he has played that role this year....that is all our losses has come when he has played as 3rd tall/backup ruck.

So SOS playing that role works a bit better than any other options on our list. People forget SOS kicked 4 against Port Adelaide last year, which is more than TDK or any other 3rd tall option has kicked for us.

So goes back to your original hypothesis.....who does SOS displace in the best 22.....if Kennedy isn't in it.

That depends on how many of our best 22 are actually fit.
I would expect the 'bottom 6' of our best 22 would include at least 2 (potentially 4) small forwards.....who would be the most likely given the lack of output we've seen by numerous different ones.

For mine, the best 22 is almost there.  I would be looking at Cotters in and Cerra in and then maybe looking at what we do with our rucks/jsos.

As we all expected hes a best 26 player now.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #54 –
It's no accident that teams which go through a season using the least players often end up at the pointy end of the ladder.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #55 –
If Martin comes back in and can stay fit, I agree with Kruddler and think that maybe Kennedy gets squeezed out. We've got Fogarty and E. Hollands who can run through the midfield and then both play as forwards as well. If that rolls into next year, hard to see how Kennedy, Silvagni and Martin could all play in the same team? Yes, it comes down to who's fit and I can't remember the last time we had a full list to choose from....but SOS probably squeezes back in with the ability to play backup ruck too.

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #56 –
Quote from: WASurfer – on
If Martin comes back in and can stay fit, I agree with Kruddler and think that maybe Kennedy gets squeezed out. We've got Fogarty and E. Hollands who can run through the midfield and then both play as forwards as well. If that rolls into next year, hard to see how Kennedy, Silvagni and Martin could all play in the same team? Yes, it comes down to who's fit and I can't remember the last time we had a full list to choose from....but SOS probably squeezes back in with the ability to play backup ruck too.
I think Harry's improved ruck work might have put an end to Jack's future as a part time ruck unless we have injuries.
I like Kennedy in the team and while he may not be the greatest footballer he is a cog in that midfield setup that helps Cripps and Walsh do their job and along with Hewett gives us those blue collar workers you need around the ball.
E. Hollands is more of a finisher and creator and adds that goalkicking mid you need, throw in Cerra with TDK feeding them all and its a nice setup to have. I cant see a spot for Jack other than as a backup for injuries and when players get their workload managed and unfortunately he might be better at another club if he wants to play regular footy.

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #57 –
In response to all of the comments above about who gets a game and who doesn't - what a nice problem to have!

One thing to be aware of - some players may not necessarily have a compelling case to stay in the side based on football contributions, but sometimes their presence is important for less tangible reasons.  We seem to have a great on-field camaraderie at the moment (check out the post-goal celebrations!), and that is like having a 19th man on the ground.   Whatever is in the water at CFC right now is of great benefit - and only those closer to the playing group will really understand what the best mix is.

So, sometimes we see players picked, or left out, and it may be a result of how it brings the group together, nothing else.

The match committee seems to have tapped into something, so I am happy to back them right now.
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #58 –
Got to love the depth we have now. Locks from last year in Martin and Motlop, are not. They will need to work for it. Might also need to wait for their chance of someone else getting injured as well.

Re: It's now or never!

Reply #59 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Lods, I agree.

Also, I've taken an increasingly dim view of the 99 PF with the passing of time. In the moment, it gave the impression that the club could maintain its place at the upper end of the competition, when really all it did was fool people and mask a whole bunch of cultural and other problems, which came to roost only a couple of years later. 

We were about the 6th best team that year that got an out of form side in the SF then caused a big upset when rank underdogs. We went 12-10 so we weren't real good. Unlucky with injury in 2000 and wasted 2001, where we beat the Grand Finalists in every game we played, one by 74pts, but lost games when we shouldn't have. Remember the 2000 game against Essendon where we lost 3 big guns before 1/4 time, including Kouta, and only just got run over at the end.