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Topic: How will we line up in 2025. (Read 44849 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #120 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on


Nick Austin mentioned that Kemp is training as a forward and Silvagni is training as a defender.  I haven't heard or read anything about McGovern changing his role.

Lemmey is training as a forward and I can't see that changing even if McMahon is rookied.  Lemmey has pinch hit as a KPD in the VFL and that was one of his better games, but his best position is KPF and back up ruck.

I've heard same about McGovern, but cannot recall the source or how reliable it is.
Speculating at this time of the year is wasted energy. So its worth waiting until R1 before we get too up in arms about who is training where and why.

I've also read the McGovern to the forward line elsewhere, and it was also couched in the terms of 'rumours are'.
It's likely it's just social media speculation feeding on itself, but the idea is not totally without merit given-

-He was a forward when he came to us.
-He struggled a bit with injury in those early days. He's a bit more stable now. Seems to be able to play through those injuries.
-A good spell in the backline has probably given him a few tricks to use as a forward.
-With the addition of Haynes and the return of Silvagni (training as a defender), add Kemp and Cowan all around the 188-192 cm mark we are pretty well set up for medium tall backmen

We're either going to have a strong contigent of medium talls in the VFL, or someone will have to play forward.
Most likely it will be Kemp.
But McGovern and Silvagni are both options.

We'll probably get a better idea when they start to get into serious pre-season and see who is working with which group.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #121 –
Flexibility and unpredictability is key. The fact that we don't know where some guys will be playing also means that the opposition won't know either.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #122 –
Quote from: Sub-Zero – on
Flexibility and unpredictability is key. The fact that we don't know where some guys will be playing also means that the opposition won't know either.

But they will be scouting our training sessions, just as we will be scouting theirs  :)
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #123 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: Sub-Zero – on
Flexibility and unpredictability is key. The fact that we don't know where some guys will be playing also means that the opposition won't know either.

But they will be scouting our training sessions, just as we will be scouting theirs  :)

Weitering can spend the pre-season as a midfielder to Motlop's rucking. ;)  :D

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #124 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: Sub-Zero – on
Flexibility and unpredictability is key. The fact that we don't know where some guys will be playing also means that the opposition won't know either.
But they will be scouting our training sessions, just as we will be scouting theirs  :)
                                                                           
 But that doesn't mean that we can't switch them around during the season or even at training.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #125 –
Quote from: pinot – on
Looks like Lemmey is filling out nicely - big boys take time till they get used to their big fame and how to use it. Will be interesting if it clicks for him and slowly goes into beast mode this year. 21 end of January so still a baby for a tall developing bloke but will be an intriguing watch.
I'd look at training him as a KPD. We have forwards everywhere and won't be getting a game forward anytime soon no matter how well he comes on. KPD though we have a little hole.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #126 –
Quote from: laj – on
I'd look at training him as a KPD. We have forwards everywhere and won't be getting a game forward anytime soon no matter how well he comes on. KPD though we have a little hole.

You’ll have everyone in the backline Jim, not just the mugs. 🙂

We really don’t need another KPD but we do need a KPF as injury cover or to freshen up Charlie and Harry in the lead up to finals.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #127 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: laj – on
I'd look at training him as a KPD. We have forwards everywhere and won't be getting a game forward anytime soon no matter how well he comes on. KPD though we have a little hole.

You’ll have everyone in the backline Jim, not just the mugs. 🙂

We really don’t need another KPD but we do need a KPF as injury cover or to freshen up Charlie and Harry in the lead up to finals.
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.

I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #128 –
Quote from: laj – on
Quote from: DJC – on


You’ll have everyone in the backline Jim, not just the mugs. 🙂

We really don’t need another KPD but we do need a KPF as injury cover or to freshen up Charlie and Harry in the lead up to finals.
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.

I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.
Agree...we have one decent KP defender on the list only, the next in line was told to find a new home with the clubs blessing such is his worth and reputation and there were no takers despite a universal shortage of quality taller defenders. If Weitering was to get injured we would struggle to beat 75% of the other teams and would get hammered by the good ones imho.
Hawthorn have come to the realisation they needed to get KP defenders of some quality to make their team better, we have taken a more minimalistic route by recruiting a newbie prospect in Ofarrell who is a few years away imo and now are trying to find the best of Hawthorns VFL discards in DGB, Philips to fill a hole on the cheap.
Clearly the CHB position is of low priority to the club even though our defense rated in the bottom six for points against and if the club thinks it has the players then Aaron Hamill as defensive coach has to come under scrutiny.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #129 –
Quote from: laj – on
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.

I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.

We have two great key forwards and an apprentice and we struggled when one of the two was missing and were close to pathetic when they both missed a game.  With Kemp and Silvagni as possible back ups, we're fine for key forwards, providing Lemmey continues to develop.  Lemmey has shown that he can hold down CHB in the VFL, as has McMahon who could get a SSP spot.

At the other end of the ground we have the best KPD in the business.  We then have Lewis Young who, contrary to some opinions, wasn't told to find a new home, and didn't look for one.  His best form, as we saw in 2023 is pretty good, but he doesn't quite fit the way Vossy wants our defence to play.  However, it did look more cohesive when Young was recalled.  We've then got several third talls who struggle against tall key forwards but are reasonably competent.  Then we have a new apprentice in O'Farrell and a couple of Hawthorn rejects in the running for a SSP spot as tall defenders.

We're fine for talls at both ends of the ground.

It's a pointless discussion anyway as Harry McKay will remain as our key forward and back up ruckman for the foreseeable future.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #130 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: laj – on
We do. We have a pile of 3rd talls trying to hold the key position, so we do need one. By complete contrast, another question, how many more key forwards do you think we need? You only need one very good one and a reasonably decent one. If you lose one of the big 2 someone like, say Kemp for example, could fill that in case of injury and the forward line would still function well with one of the big 2. Most important part of any side is a strong defence, which premierships are based on, as you well know. Take the ball out of defence well and you can set forward lines right up, even average ones.

I don't get how you think we don't need a key defender yet need 6000 key forwards.

We have two great key forwards and an apprentice and we struggled when one of the two was missing and were close to pathetic when they both missed a game.  With Kemp and Silvagni as possible back ups, we're fine for key forwards, providing Lemmey continues to develop.  Lemmey has shown that he can hold down CHB in the VFL, as has McMahon who could get a SSP spot.

At the other end of the ground we have the best KPD in the business.  We then have Lewis Young who, contrary to some opinions, wasn't told to find a new home, and didn't look for one.  His best form, as we saw in 2023 is pretty good, but he doesn't quite fit the way Vossy wants our defence to play.  However, it did look more cohesive when Young was recalled.  We've then got several third talls who struggle against tall key forwards but are reasonably competent.  Then we have a new apprentice in O'Farrell and a couple of Hawthorn rejects in the running for a SSP spot as tall defenders.

We're fine for talls at both ends of the ground.

It's a pointless discussion anyway as Harry McKay will remain as our key forward and back up ruckman for the foreseeable future.

We're fine because we have Kemp and Lemmey to hold down KP posts.  >:(
I am so sick of reading this.

Kemp is undersized. He is a break glass in case of emergency type.
Lemmey has shown absolutely zero so far and is nowhere near AFL ready.

There is a simply exercise that highlights our issue.

Pick your best 22, in position.
Pick your 'next best' 22 in position.
Where are the weaknesses.

You 'should' have a backup 22 (in position) that steps up if/when required.

Looking at KPPS....inc. 3rd talls

Best 22 -
Backs - Weitering, Haynes, McGovern
Fwds - McKay, Curnow, Kemp
Ruck - De Koning

Next 22 -
Backs - Young, Lemmey, O'Farrell
Fwds - Silvagni, O'Keefe ??
Ruck - Pittonet

Haynes is for a year only, maybe 2 if we are lucky.
Lemmey, O'Farrell and O'Keefe are all babies not ready for AFL footy.
Silvagni/O'Keefe are also backup rucks......with Silvagni potentially being a back this year as well.

Take any 3 players out of our best 22.....and we are out of depth.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #131 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
We're fine because we have Kemp and Lemmey to hold down KP posts.  >:(
I am so sick of reading this.

Kemp is undersized. He is a break glass in case of emergency type.
Lemmey has shown absolutely zero so far and is nowhere near AFL ready.

There is a simply exercise that highlights our issue.

Pick your best 22, in position.
Pick your 'next best' 22 in position.
Where are the weaknesses.

You 'should' have a backup 22 (in position) that steps up if/when required.

Looking at KPPS....inc. 3rd talls

Best 22 -
Backs - Weitering, Haynes, McGovern
Fwds - McKay, Curnow, Kemp
Ruck - De Koning

Next 22 -
Backs - Young, Lemmey, O'Farrell
Fwds - Silvagni, O'Keefe ??
Ruck - Pittonet

Haynes is for a year only, maybe 2 if we are lucky.
Lemmey, O'Farrell and O'Keefe are all babies not ready for AFL footy.
Silvagni/O'Keefe are also backup rucks......with Silvagni potentially being a back this year as well.

Take any 3 players out of our best 22.....and we are out of depth.

And I'm not sick of reading your repetitive rants about not having enough KPDs?  ::)

For a start, can you point out where I said that "we have Kemp and Lemmey to hold down KP posts"?

Just to help you out, I wrote, "With Kemp and Silvagni as possible back ups, we're fine for key forwards, providing Lemmey continues to develop," when discussing our key forwards.  I then wrote "Lemmey has shown that he can hold down CHB in the VFL, as has McMahon who could get a SSP spot."  Note the phrases "providing Lemmey continues to develop" and "in the VFL".

As per usual, I follow the club's designations.  If they say that a player is a key defender or a key forward, that's good enough for me, even if the player may be a little short or a little light by someone else's standards.  Our KPPs are:

Jack Silvagni - key forward (and back up ruckman or possibly key defender this season) 194cm, 92kg: first 22
Harry McKay - key forward (and back up ruckman) 200cm 105kg: first 22
Brodie Kemp - key defender (but is set to play as a key forward this season) 192cm 89kg: first 25
Harry O'Farrell - key defender 196cm 87kg: first year apprentice and unlikely to play in 2025
Jacob Weitering - key defender 195cm 102kg: first 22
Charlie Curnow - key forward 194cm 94kg: first 22
Harry Lemmey - key forward (and back up ruckman) 201cm 95kg: final year apprentice and likely to debut this season
Lewis Young - key defender (and back up ruckman) 202cm 99kg: first 22

Then there's the possibility that two of the following could be rookied through the SSP process:

Liam McMahon - key forward 198cm 89kg
Denver Grainger-Barras - key defender 194cm 84kg
Ethan Phillips - key defender 198cm 90kg

McMahon and Grainger-Barras are 22 and Phillips is 25 and all have spent at least on year on an AFL list.  Grainger-Barras and Phillips have played at AFL level, McMahon hasn't.  All three would be adequate replacements if we lost a KPP to injury.

Note that Hawthorn designated Grainger-Barras and Phillips as key defenders.

We also have Mitch McGovern and Nick Haynes as intercept defenders who are capable of playing on taller opponents.  Tom De Koning could play as a KPF if required.

No team in the competition has a back up for every player in their best 22 and no matter how you try to spin it, we could put a decent spine on the ground even if three of our first choice KPPs are unavailable,
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #132 –
Quote from: DJC – on
No team in the competition has a back up for every player in their best 22 and no matter how you try to spin it, we could put a decent spine on the ground even if three of our first choice KPPs are unavailable,

Prove it.

I call BS on that.

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #133 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on
No team in the competition has a back up for every player in their best 22 and no matter how you try to spin it, we could put a decent spine on the ground even if three of our first choice KPPs are unavailable,

Prove it.

I call BS on that.

How exactly would one go about proving that - wait until the season starts and nobble three of our best KPPs? 

You can call BS all you like and it still won't make your opinion correct or any more valid than any other opinion that supporters or footy media may put forward.

Just because you keep repeating stuff doesn't make it right, and it doesn't get any closer to the mark with each repetition.

I'll take your challenge, even though we don't have enough players on our list for two 22s.  For argument's sake, our best win last season was our Round 15 win over Geelong so I'll take that as our best 22.  Excluding those players our second best 21 would be:

B:    Wilson  Young  Charleson
HB:  Docherty  Haynes  Camporeale, L
C:    Cottrell  Cerra  Binns
HF:  Moir  Lemmey  Camporeale, B
F:    Motlop  Silvagni  Monahan
R:    Pittonet  Lord  Smith
IC:   O'Keeffe  Duffy  O'Farrell


Now here's a challenge for you; try naming a competitive Brisbane second 22 that doesn't include McInerny or any players that played in the grand final.  I'll give you a tip; the team you name would be flogged by West Coast and would struggle against our second 22.

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: How will we line up in 2025.

Reply #134 –
No, prove that no team has a backup 22 in position.

We have an unbalanced list.
We have had an unbalanced list for years.
I refuse to believe that everyone has an unbalanced list like you suggest.