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Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #60 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: PaulP – on
Yes, I've been wondering the same Mil. Maybe some off field issues.

It's all a bit of speculation, but into the void that is a form slump, there will always be that speculation.

It was interesting to hear both Silvagni and Weitering, two players who's commitment could never be questioned, talking about hard and honest conversations needing to take place.

Do we have a split between the "Professionals" and the "Casuals."?
Well if there is, the casuals need to shape up or ship out. What Weiters and SOS are demanding is not negotiable.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #61 –
Quote from: crashlander – on
Perhaps we can play Fog as our version of Bedford. He may not be that great in the air, but his pace and concentration would allow him to follow a lot good mids around.

Fog, pace? Bedford is a speedster, Fog is a not slow but not overly quick.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #62 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Quote from: crashlander – on
Perhaps we can play Fog as our version of Bedford. He may not be that great in the air, but his pace and concentration would allow him to follow a lot good mids around.

Fog, pace? Bedford is a speedster, Fog is a not slow but not overly quick.
True, but we lack the real leg speed I'd prefer to have for a guy in this role. Others coming through may have it, but, as been pointed out any number of times, we are not blessed with a large number of seriously quick players.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #63 –
Quote from: crashlander – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Fog, pace? Bedford is a speedster, Fog is a not slow but not overly quick.
True, but we lack the real leg speed I'd prefer to have for a guy in this role. Others coming through may have it, but, as been pointed out any number of times, we are not blessed with a large number of seriously quick players.
Fog is great at tackling and applying maximum pressure to keep the ball in our fwd line. Unfortunately, at the moment he is getting lumped in with the poor performing small fwd group (ie as they are not hitting the scoreboard). Fog is suffering the departure of Owies I reckon.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #64 –
I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think too much is made of what are rare and minor (and split second) decisions by players who pull up or stop short or whatever. There's a mythology built up that ironing yourself out is more helpful to the team than trying to play out the full game. Our depth is shallow, and our injury list, whilst better than most years, is not ideal. It's possible that these players had moments they regret, and it's also possible that Voss is aware of our injuries and our depth, and has perhaps suggested that discretion is the better part of valor. Unlikely to be a popular view, but just putting it out there regardless.

This is precisely why I have grievances with certain football commentary : isolate, decontextualize, amplify and magnify incidents that have no real bearing on the final outcome, and aggrieved supporters pick it up and run with it. 

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #65 –
Quote from: LordLucifer – on
Quite clearly, some of you just don't get it and probably never will.

I''m not going to waste my time spelling it out for you either. 

Mml.   You can't can you.

I can just see it now.   LL steps into the room.   "Lads!   The days of selecting players who haven't earnt it are over.  No longer will be gifting games.   Enough is Enough"

"Right onto selection this week.   Banging down the door with his 3 kicks and 4 handballs is Ashton Moir.   Couldn't manage a tackle but that's a good start.   Welcome Son."

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #66 –
So moving onto this week.  Our team is crying out for some easy ball.  thus far, we have played a fairly young Richmond who turned the game into their chaos scrappy style they have been rolling with for nigh on 10 years now and worked themselves up for this event of the year, and knew no matter what happened, they would contest the crap out of it if they won nothing else for the year.

A slick hawthorn outfit, who move the ball end to end quickly.

A gritty bulldogs outfit, who don't really give anyone a free ride, and are pretty tenacious.

Then the Pies, which is never an easy contest, and are happy to go the knuckle.

We are about to face, possibly our easiest opponent of the year with a bunch of players who have been screaming to me, like they are playing rush pressure football, and could use a more easy kill.  Now is not the time to "set standards" and go about doing some rubbish because we are annoyed we aint winning.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #67 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
So moving onto this week.  Our team is crying out for some easy ball.  thus far, we have played a fairly young Richmond who turned the game into their chaos scrappy style they have been rolling with for nigh on 10 years now and worked themselves up for this event of the year, and knew no matter what happened, they would contest the crap out of it if they won nothing else for the year.

A slick hawthorn outfit, who move the ball end to end quickly.

A gritty bulldogs outfit, who don't really give anyone a free ride, and are pretty tenacious.

Then the Pies, which is never an easy contest, and are happy to go the knuckle.

We are about to face, possibly our easiest opponent of the year with a bunch of players who have been screaming to me, like they are playing rush pressure football, and could use a more easy kill.  Now is not the time to "set standards" and go about doing some rubbish because we are annoyed we aint winning.


Disagree, we need to set standards and stop looking for excuses. Don't care if we win or lose this week just don't embarrass the club with another weak half a game of football and then say it's too hard and I don't want to try anymore because the opposition won't let us win and are playing too rough.
This should be a comfortable win but without meeting certain standards then it won't mean anything. Chase, tackle and contest properly, just get the simple things  right and play like a committed team not individuals looking for an easy kick and another pay check.

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #68 –
There probably needs to be a bit of dampening of expectations regarding the recovery from the issues regarding Harry and Elijah and their availability this week.
It's not always a linear progression.
The fact a player plays VFL should not automaticaly mean he's ready to go in the seniors the following week.
The fact they took the field is a positive. How they pulled up is the unknown.
While West Coast would seem to be the ideal opponent to reintroduce these players, a lot will depend on the feedback from both and discussions with those looking after their well-being following the Southport game.

And it would seem that the standards expected by team-mates and supporters will be such that there will be extra pressure to commit 110% to the contest.

 

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #69 –
i agree with lods regarding Harry and Elijah  because we played 1 week in reserves we go straight in (seniors ) no way time to get tough 3 wks in ressies and maybe. 

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #70 –
Players like Docherty and Williams have played 173 and 159 games respectively. I'm sure they know exactly what is required of them. Whilst it could be argued that we all need a nudge from time to time, Voss spends part of every game coaching from the bench - I'm sure that a quiet word on the interchange is all that is needed, and failing that, sending out the runner to make some inquiries would sort things out. Tearing strips, dropping players, making an example, setting standards etc seem old school, overly performative, and unlikely to have the desired effect IMO.

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #71 –
Quote from: LordLucifer – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


Oh please do. Educate us with your pull a name out of a hat strategy. 
"Tada" that's better.
😆



Okay then, let's just keep going with your theory of playing the same guys who are doing the same dumb things and delivering the same crap results seeing as it's working so brilliantly right now.

As I said, if you don't understand the reasons & benefits for making some hard changes to the team then I'm not going to explain it all to you.

Besides, it's not like you'd listen anyway, its either your way or no way on every subject we all discuss on this forum.

Its not 'my way' i have no say it what happens on the MC. They do....and i'm explaining to you why it is happening the way it is.

As Shakin, not so subtlely, put it....what you want simply cannot happen because what you bring in is performing worse, with less pressure, less skill, less experience etc....YOU are the one gambling. You are playing roulette. Instead of betting on red or black.....you are going on green.

I get you want wins, i'm pointing out your way won't provide them. Its akin to swap the 1sts and the 2nds because the 1sts are underperforming........yet the 2nds are not even close to getting a win against worst opposition. How will that fix the problem?

Before last week, and probably still, there was a 'ladder' going around of "Time in front" in 2025. It ranks teams based on the amount of time they have been in front of games (at any time) and gives you an overall percentage.
After 3 games, we were 4th, with 58% time in front. The 3 teams above us, were all top 4 on the actual ladder.

What does that mean? It means we are doing a lot right. It means we are not far away from some wins.
There are plenty of teams who were 25% or worse time in front....they have a lot more to worry about.

It means wholesale changes are not required. Just some minor tweaks and a bit of luck.
The tigers game is the anomoly, the embarrassment.
Since then, we've played 3 top 8 sides and been in front for more than half a game each time.
The dogs game we had about 5 scoring calls go against us. Taking goals off us, giving goals to them. Thats the umpires making 50-50 calls that this time, cost us the game. Next time it may win us the game.

What you seem to overlook, and Thry touched on it, is that players do not give the same results every week like robots. Some are up, some are down.
Next week, its might be completely opposite.

This week, we play some worse opposition. Putting in the same effort we have all year, should see us get a win with no changes at all. However, if we sack 6 players and play kids, the chance of getting a win decreases dramatically.

Do you want wins or not?

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #72 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Tearing strips, dropping players, making an example, setting standards etc seem old school, overly performative, and unlikely to have the desired effect IMO.
Agreed, in the old days when we got "The Cuts" and other various corporal punishments at school some bastardry from a coach enlisted some push back, modern kids are too well informed and trained from a very young age to identify such brutality as bullying and a violation of personal rights.

If the MC, any modern MC not just ours, tried the old brutal ways they would get "Cancelled!"
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #73 –
Quote from: LP – on
Agreed, in the old days when we got "The Cuts" and other various corporal punishments at school some bastardry from a coach enlisted some push back, modern kids are too well informed and trained from a very young age to identify such brutality as bullying and a violation of personal rights.

If the MC, any modern MC not just ours, tried the old brutal ways they would get "Cancelled!"

The bit in bold is a good thing IMO.

Re: AFL Rd 5 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs West Coast in Gather Round

Reply #74 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Players like Docherty and Williams have played 173 and 159 games respectively. I'm sure they know exactly what is required of them. Whilst it could be argued that we all need a nudge from time to time, Voss spends part of every game coaching from the bench - I'm sure that a quiet word on the interchange is all that is needed, and failing that, sending out the runner to make some inquiries would sort things out. Tearing strips, dropping players, making an example, setting standards etc seem old school, overly performative, and unlikely to have the desired effect IMO.

I started looking at our experience vs Collingwood last week but didn't follow through with it.
One thing i do remember though is the 5 most experienced collingwood players combined for more than 450 games (almost 480 IIRC) MORE experience than our top 5 most experienced players.
I was going to continue down the list and the 'next 5' etc but didn't bother.
I think there was only 1 player who hadn't played 50 games or more for the pies, and he started sub.
We had 7 who have played under 50 games.
They only had 6 players who had played under 100 games.
4 played in a flag
1 was Nick Daicos who was injured otherwise would've played in a flag.
1 started sub.

There youngest player is Nick Daicos.
We played 6 players younger than him.

Ultimately, they had 1138 more games experience than us.

So yes, the players you mentioned should certainly know what is required of them.
I'm not sure the same could be said for a lot of others.
Pies on the other hand certainly do and have a big edge over everyone.
People forget they won a flag 18 months ago.

Some people need to give the opposition some credit when evaluating our teams performance.