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Topic: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane (Read 4606 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #60 –
I blame Parkin/ Brittain and their player empowerment. >:(
There was a time when the coach had the power...except for Percy Jones :D
Who by a strange quirk is our most statistically successful coach apart from a couple of stand-ins in the last 100 years.
Perhaps that's the secret.
Change the coach every year. ;)

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #61 –
Quote from: LP – on
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.

If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.


Whether this is true or not, it does at least sound plausible IMO.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #62 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: PaulP – on
I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls. If one measures this "losing the players" by on field performance, then I guess our fluctuations under Voss are like a case of lost and found ? First half 23, lost. Second half 23, found. First half 24, found, etc.

Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.

If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.


And governance of the playing group lies with the football manager and senior coach. Again we land at inadequate leadership.

Good leadership spots 'groups within groups/factions' very early and nips it in the bud, then asks themselves the vital question, "How did this eventuate?" "What have I failed to create that allowed such divisions to eventuate?"
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #63 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
And governance of the playing group lies with the football manager and senior coach. Again we land at inadequate leadership.
I think that's an oversimplification.

We've had an issue spanning too many coaching regimes for this just to be the coaches, it's most likely having too many of the wrong type of people with close access to the playing group. Too many cooks.

Personally, I see it in the outbursts of Mathieson Snr. When Dick Pratt was up and about, and to some degree Sayers, the faceless types were schtum. In between we get noise and we see chaos result, in my opinion that is a huge tell!

Whiteants are always about, some caretakers are good at keeping watch and staying the threat, others not so much! Whiteants are the biggest threat to success because they are opportunistic and driven by reward, they are more insidious, more devious, when the prize is large.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #64 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: LP – on
I suspect it's more likely there are factions between players than a specific issue with the coach.

If there are factions in our group they are enabled and driven by the culture at the club, these things do not form bottom up without some failure of governance.


Whether this is true or not, it does at least sound plausible IMO.



I think it's very plausible

We can't know for sure, and we're all a bit guided by our own perceptions.

So with that in mind....
To me it seems like there are a group of players who fully embrace the style of play Voss is trying to accomplish.
They're supportive, and are trying to push those less committed to play in the same way.
And while that second group may be partially on board, that type of football is physically demanding and high pressure.
When you're not on board 100%, and sometimes not physically capable, or doubt your ability to perform an assigned task then it's difficult to commit fully, and as the pressure of the game intensifies you get that drop off of effort.
Doubt sets in..."this isn't working", "it's happening again"

It's not a major rift between players...they all seem to get around when someone does well.
They've flown the flag a couple of times.
They may be fairly tight off the field.
It's more the subtle support on field that somtimes seems to be lacking, the things that are hardly noticeable-blocking, shepherding, support in tackles, running hard to provide an option.

Of course that's all just a personal guess and may be well off the mark.
But something is just not right and at the moment it doesn't seem fixable.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #65 –
We have too many silver spoon players at AFL level who think they are better than everyone else.

How many times you think Walsh, Weitering, Cripps, McKay, Curnow have played VFL?

Then they look at the VFL boys and think they arent good enough to be there.  Notice how JSOS doesnt suffer from this?  He's an average player with above average motivation to give his all for the team competitively and is the only reason he has forged a 100 game AFL career. 

Groups within groups always happen at footy clubs, but that doesnt mean alot.

I get the idea they are church choir boys relative to the old school footballers who played up a lot more off the field.  Most of these guys are getting on and having kids.  This is another reason why im not in a hurry to go straight to the youth.  We seem to have a lord of the flies situation at Carlton most of the time, where all the old players are shunted to the background and the young kids run the place and most of them are not mature enough to set the appropriate standards.  We had Judds leadership into Marc Murphy into Patrick Cripps and Sam Docherty as co captains back then.  Would be nice to have some continuity in the team, retire our older players, add a youthful layer from wherever in the draft, supplement with some VFL types, and bringing in some free agents and one thing that carrying players from draft into retirement will do, will create an environment where perhaps turbulence isnt a factor to the career you forge.

Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn seem to have that.  Sure, no guarantees you will have a long career but the premature delisting, trading and offing of players who are still capable of playing good footy to get youth in will leave your club morally bankrupt as you treat people as commodities rather than loyal servants.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #66 –
To be fair, you’ve got to have circa 10% of your list as commodities each year
Let’s go BIG !

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #67 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
To be fair, you’ve got to have circa 10% of your list as commodities each year
Agree, it's professional sport , we are not running an encounter group for the players, it's the supporters who are the loyal servants, we need the therapy.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #68 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Carlton players must be a very unique breed. Malthouse did not seem to lose the players at Footscray, or West Coast, or Collingwood. Then suddenly he gets to Carlton.....

Pagan didn't seem to lose the players throughout his junior coaching days (fantastic record), didn't seem to lose the players at North. Then suddenly he comes to Carlton.......

I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls.

Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.


I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #69 –
Sacking Ratten and Teague is a club that went into full retard mode.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #70 –
Quote from: RiverRat – on
Quote from: PaulP – on
Carlton players must be a very unique breed. Malthouse did not seem to lose the players at Footscray, or West Coast, or Collingwood. Then suddenly he gets to Carlton.....

Pagan didn't seem to lose the players throughout his junior coaching days (fantastic record), didn't seem to lose the players at North. Then suddenly he comes to Carlton.......

I remain highly skeptical that the typical discourse(s) conducted by supporters bears much resemblance at all to the discourse conducted by football people within the four walls.

Sorry but I don't buy it. I should make it clear that my ire is not directed at you.


I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.
I never felt the seniors players had the buy in with Teague and let him down. The younger players excelled with his full on attacking style but never felt the older players had faith in him.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #71 –
Hardly one post in this thread about the upcoming game. Says volumes of how far off we are. 

Many including me make up 'likely' scenarios in our head (mostly ones that suit what we want to believe) whereby the true reality is we have no fking clue about the inside workings, players fitness levels, players playing injured, coach player connection etc etc. We just have our opinion on what the issues are run with it like its a fact.

The only fact is the scoreboard and on that basis alone most aspects have failed including the bulk of the playing list, the senior coach and all his assistants - all failures. FULL STOP. The only area of the club succeeding is the financial side and that will be under pressure as a lot of that was built off high probability of on-field future success.

All i hope for is a real strong statement at seasons end to make ballsy change to all areas without worrying about the names of the changes.   We need to earn our stripes again by taking no prisoners and showing all the club comes first from our best player to our last player on the list because as it stands we have no respect in this competition which is saddest part for what was such a powerful proud successful club.

I just dont buy into small changes will do it and i dont care about 'how that has gone for us in the past mantra' - the group is miles off it and without considerable improvement in the off season we will again be all bark no bite.
 

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #72 –
Quote from: RiverRat – on
I was within the four walls during the Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse and Teague coaching stints and I have no doubt that Pagan and Malthouse lost (or never had) the players, which did not seem to be the case with either Teague or Ratten.

Right. This would give you a unique insight. Why do you think this seems to be a problem at Carlton (I'm speaking of Malthouse and Pagan) when these successful premiership coaches were well regarded and did not appear to "lose the players" at their previous clubs ?

If you start with one theory popularized by supporters, i.e we keep picking the wrong bloke, which then has a downstream effect where the coach will lose the players, then the choice of coach is pot luck, and our problems are very deep, because the ones doing the selecting have no clue, and after a certain honeymoon period the players cease to care. Big if true.

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #73 –
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us.  There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book.  It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach.  Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: AFL Rd 18 2025 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #74 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Not every North player was enamoured about Pagan and his methods. I've heard Adam Simpson describe some of his "coaching" in less than glowing terms and Corey McKernan was not a fan either - he left to come to us, and checked out again when Pagan came across to us.  There's two examples straight off the bat.
Kouta writes about it in detail in his book.  It was 1980s hard ass coaching for a 2000s group that didn't respond to that approach.  Some people would call them "soft", others would say they were independent enough to not unthinkingly swallow abuse and BS.
Pagan was the kind of coach you played to spite, not to because he was your mate.

There is IMO, a difference between a couple of dissenting voices (inevitable when you have 40+ players, assistant coaches and other support staff) and the seemingly en masse switching off, which, if you follow this theory (not sure that I do), seem to be endemic at our club. And not just as a one off. Over and over again.