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Topic: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat (Read 2331 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #60 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.

Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #61 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on


So our list management strategy is seeing who wants to come to us and work in with what we have.

....and if nobody wants to come to us??

This is where the draft cuts out the 'want' side of things.
If they end up wanting out, then so be it, but you've got something of value you can trade.
If not, then problem solved.

"What if no-one wants to come to us..."
Seriously?

You do some really good, deep analysis and then you pull out these 'extreme' conclusions.
At the end of the day it's all a guess and personal opinion, embellished with a bit of bias as to how we would do things.
The draft has it's place, but that place loses its importance the deeper into the draft you go.
Recruiting has a lot of elements and there comes a point where one element becomes preferable over another.
Talls are always risky through the draft.
You might draft 4 or 5 for nil result
Yet a look at young players with a couple of years experience and you have a better idea of the player they might be.

The what if game:

What if we topped up two years ago and won a flag?

What if we topped up with B grade recruits ala Richmond post 3 peat, and then bottomed out like they have with everyone wanting out to greener pastures so they can rebuild anew?

What if we hadnt sacked Ratten and appointed Malthouse?

What if we hadnt let Eddie Betts leave?

What if SOS hadnt drafted Finbar O Dwyer?

What if Baldilocks hadnt had a falling out with SOS?

What if my grandmother had testicles?

Its all well and good to hypothesize, but we have built a layer of kids that can carry us forward now players have started dropping off from the heady days of 2 half good seasons.   We recruited ready mades in Cerra, Hewett, Saad, Mcgovern and Williams.  It got us into also ran status, and whilst we started believing we were good enough, it didnt come together for long enough before this season to really make us believe we could win it. 

Why?  IMHO it was dumb luck.  We put ourselves in the frame, but we still had too much left to too few, and were never really dominant looking like we could win from anywhere.  It happend a handfull of times, but not as regularly as Collingwood 2023 who you just knew would find a way, nor as regularly as Brisbane over the last 5 years who have played as many poor games as we have really accomplished ones.  Partly through injury.  So many players missing entire seasons from our team.  Im not hoping we dont lose one, im hoping its someone we care less about these days and wont impact our fortunes greatly.

The kids dont look like they will win us much, but there are a few prospective 200 gamers in that young lot, and between HOF and what we think Dean will be, our key position defenders are set for the next 10 years. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #62 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: PaulP – on
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.

Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure.
No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the  club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #63 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: DJC – on


Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure.
No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the  club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.
I hope he is able to do it!

At least he won’t have a few there playing half arsed this year.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #64 –
The media blow torch will be on full heat until we re-sign Voss and Walsh.
Like hungry sharks the vermin in the football media detect the faintest trace of blood in the water, then the frenzy starts. Nothing sells papers like (yet another) Carlton $hit storm
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #65 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I don't understand how commentators can declare a coach is under massive pressure, yet those same commentators argue that our list is weaker. Basically saying Voss has to achieve more with less. Top shelf drivel.

Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.

If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #66 –
There's a common thread here with both players and coach.
It all depends on what happens onfield next year.
There's no escaping it.
Results will determine who was right and who was wrong.
 
I look at it this way.
We have a new regime who has taken an active role in List management over the last few months. They seem to have endorsed the approach in recruiting.

Brad Lloyd was pretty much tarred and feathered  as being responsible for all our ills.
But his departure hasn't seemed to ease the angst.

Optimists or pessimists.
Pick a team.
I know which will make folks happier.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #67 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.

If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.

My issue is not opinions on here. My issue is a certain cadre of individuals in the media who talk sh1t. The default position for any Carlton coach is the rotisserie, even if we recruit a bunch of U10's from around the corner. One hopes the club can adjust expectations accordingly, either up or down, in way that fairly represents our position, not this "no excuses" crap.

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #68 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: DJC – on


Yes, it's weak article written by someone with scant regard for the facts and minimal analytical ability.
Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure.
No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the  club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.

We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt.  Only Tom was part of our late season return to form.  We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.

We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role.  Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #69 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
Not sure if you've read these very forums, but i can understand where the pressure is coming from because many around here think we've improved our list in the off-season.

If those same people make enough noise when things go bad, then it gets really bad really quickly.

My issue is not opinions on here. My issue is a certain cadre of individuals in the media who talk sh1t. The default position for any Carlton coach is the rotisserie, even if we recruit a bunch of U10's from around the corner. One hopes the club can adjust expectations accordingly, either up or down, in way that fairly represents our position, not this "no excuses" crap.

Well they proved this year there is change as they didnt listen to the media DHs and sack the coach before his term was up. Having said that, IF we have another poor year and IF they decide not to go fwd with the coach following a thorough review, that's a different story to me. I dont reckon Wright and Co. will be swayed by media, supporters, ex players or current players who aren't prepared to work hard,
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #70 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on

Not really, it's on the money, Voss has to achieve more with less and Wright has left him as the fall guy by not extending him causing that extra pressure.
No one is buying that losing TDK, Jack and Charlie has made us better and its all about the optics of Carlton not sacking another coach to make the  club looking like it's changed it's ways but it's going to be a mammoth task for Voss to survive.

We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt.  Only Tom was part of our late season return to form.  We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.

We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role.  Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
I'll disagree on the list coverage for those departed players, the players we have brought in are either throws at the stumps or handy B graders but I dont see any real dial movers that will be keeping other clubs up late with worry.
Director of coaching....not a fan of the position or the incumbent for reasons I have discussed previously and the Assistants cant really be judged until seasons end and we can see what went right or wrong during the season in their areas of responsibility.
Boak hopefully can improve our leadership and find some new leaders for the future....
I also dont see many of the top teams falling away apart from Collingwood, and expect the competition to be even tougher next season making it even harder to make the top 8.
 

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #71 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: DJC – on


We lost an athletic ruckman with potential, a dual Coleman Medalist who was playing like he didn’t give a toss and an injury-prone, slow defender with all of 12 games as a KPD under his belt.  Only Tom was part of our late season return to form.  We’ve more than covered their loss with blokes who want to play for the club and give us greater depth, versatility and goal scoring ability.

We’ve brought in experienced assistants with new ideas, a director of coaching to wrangle the assistants, and Travis Boak to take a dedicated leadership and culture role.  Voss has more support than ever and a better list than he had last season.
I'll disagree on the list coverage for those departed players, the players we have brought in are either throws at the stumps or handy B graders but I dont see any real dial movers that will be keeping other clubs up late with worry.
Director of coaching....not a fan of the position or the incumbent for reasons I have discussed previously and the Assistants cant really be judged until seasons end and we can see what went right or wrong during the season in their areas of responsibility.
Boak hopefully can improve our leadership and find some new leaders for the future....
I also dont see many of the top teams falling away apart from Collingwood, and expect the competition to be even tougher next season making it even harder to make the top 8.
Whos the director of coaching? We dont have one.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #72 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Whos the director of coaching? We dont have one.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-2025-adam-simpson-joins-carlton-blues-what-is-his-role-coaching-return-latest-news/news-story/f00471974fb0c5f3853a5ecfdd0ad2a6

It seems like a casual, part time, low key role. I guess you can quibble about titles - is he a director of coaching, a coaching mentor etc.?

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #73 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Whos the director of coaching? We dont have one.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/carlton-blues/afl-2025-adam-simpson-joins-carlton-blues-what-is-his-role-coaching-return-latest-news/news-story/f00471974fb0c5f3853a5ecfdd0ad2a6

It seems like a casual, part time, low key role. I guess you can quibble about titles - is he a director of coaching, a coaching mentor etc.?

He's not the Director of Coaching. He works for Voss (his words not mine) as another set of eyes for the coaches providing feedback.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat

Reply #74 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
I'll disagree on the list coverage for those departed players, the players we have brought in are either throws at the stumps or handy B graders but I dont see any real dial movers that will be keeping other clubs up late with worry.
Director of coaching....not a fan of the position or the incumbent for reasons I have discussed previously and the Assistants cant really be judged until seasons end and we can see what went right or wrong during the season in their areas of responsibility.
Boak hopefully can improve our leadership and find some new leaders for the future....
I also dont see many of the top teams falling away apart from Collingwood, and expect the competition to be even tougher next season making it even harder to make the top 8.

Disagree all you like. 

For someone who is keen on labelling our players “injury-prone” you don’t think that Jack and Charlie had just a touch of injury-pronitis?

Florent and Hayward were drafted the year after Charlie and Jack but they’ve both played 56 more games than Jack and 35 more than Charlie.

State league players and delisted free agents are throws at the stumps but we didn’t follow the EB list management manual.  The handy B graders - Reidy and Chesser - have plenty of potential.

Adam Simpson is not “Director of Coaching”.  He reports to Voss and has a part time role mentoring the assistant coaches.

I wouldn’t be so sure about teams not falling away.  Brisbane will be stronger if anything and Gold Coast should be better.  The cellar dwellers will stay where they are and there will be 9 or 10 teams battling for the top six.


"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball