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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -


As for free agency, there is 2 problems with your logic imo.
1. Players get to choose where they will go and if you are languishing down the bottom they will choose elsewhere. I expect to be unattractive to free agents.
2. In order to get them otherwise, you pay overs, very much overs and blow up your salary cap in the process and piss off existing players... who take the opportunity to go elsewhere.


Free agents  won't choose us if we're languishing at the bottom of the ladder?...they probably won't, altough I suspect contract dollars will be a bigger attraction.

But who declares we'll be at the bottom?...that's just an assumption to support the argument.
Your expectations are just a guess.
Who wouldn't want to play with players the calibre of Cripps, Walsh, Weitering etc.

To trades- If you want Charlie Curnow it will probably cost you three first rounders.
But you dont do the trade at the player's peak.
You do it when the opportunity arises, the player fits your needs, they show a bit and still have plenty of time to develop(22-23 years).
It may cost you a little more but it's value compared to an 18 year old man/child in the draft.

Riddle me this then.
Who wanted to come to us this year?
Why didn't we get a kpp that fits your description this year?
Why wouldn't they want to come and play with cripps, Walsh and weitering?
What will change this time next year that will allow it to happen?
What about the following year when tassie every and have an open cheque book to wave around? Why would players choose us?
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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
That's the crux of the problem
People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete
It's a work in progress.

Sometimes i wonder if im the only one that remembers our performances over the past 2 decades.
The above is the caption under the photo of cfc post 2000.

I find the timing terrible. We are rebuilding a prelim side when we hadn't been a prelim side for 2 decades.

I accept we will be better in a couple years than we are now. I have serious doubts we will be better than we were a couple years ago.

I think we could have avoided being here earlier but that ship had sailed.
I think the 'start with the spine' approach is the proven method to get the team up and going together at the right time and the current method takes the destiny out of our hands somewhat as we are relying on poaching players to get better.

I'm not saying our current strategy will fail.
I'm not saying our current team cannot achieve success.
But i know where the smart money would be and I'm yet to see evidence to justify the blind faith in the current list management team.

Once again..."the smart money" is just your guess.
The past is irrelevant.
What matters is what's happening now.
We all know the past...we've lived the few 'ups' and many downs over the last 25 years.
It's a different time and a different group controlling things.
It may go the same way again-but not because we're doing things the same.
Sure there are Navy Blue glasses, but there are also 'Debbie Downer' glasses where everthing is painted in a "maybe it will turn out OK but I wouldnt bet on it" fashion.

I know which is the 'happy' one for the now. ;)

3
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -


The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's
You want to draft them
I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency
Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player
If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it.
If not, go looking.

There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft.
If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case.
I've caught up now.

As for free agency, there is 2 problems with your logic imo.
1. Players get to choose where they will go and if you are languishing down the bottom they will choose elsewhere. I expect to be unattractive to free agents.
2. In order to get them otherwise, you pay overs, very much overs and blow up your salary cap in the process and piss off existing players... who take the opportunity to go elsewhere.


Free agents  won't choose us if we're languishing at the bottom of the ladder?...they probably won't, altough I suspect contract dollars will be a bigger attraction.

But who declares we'll be at the bottom?...that's just an assumption to support the argument.
Your expectations are just a guess.
Who wouldn't want to play with players the calibre of Cripps, Walsh, Weitering etc.

To trades- If you want Charlie Curnow it will probably cost you three first rounders.
But you dont do the trade at the player's peak.
You do it when the opportunity arises, the player fits your needs, they show a bit and still have plenty of time to develop(22-23 years).
It may cost you a little more but it's value compared to an 18 year old man/child in the draft.
4
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
That's the crux of the problem
People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete
It's a work in progress.

Sometimes i wonder if im the only one that remembers our performances over the past 2 decades.
The above is the caption under the photo of cfc post 2000.

I find the timing terrible. We are rebuilding a prelim side when we hadn't been a prelim side for 2 decades.

I accept we will be better in a couple years than we are now. I have serious doubts we will be better than we were a couple years ago.

I think we could have avoided being here earlier but that ship had sailed.
I think the 'start with the spine' approach is the proven method to get the team up and going together at the right time and the current method takes the destiny out of our hands somewhat as we are relying on poaching players to get better.

I'm not saying our current strategy will fail.
I'm not saying our current team cannot achieve success.
But i know where the smart money would be and I'm yet to see evidence to justify the blind faith in the current list management team.
5
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -


See i find these comments from you fascinating.

I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.

I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.

Now you say it was the right thing to do?
This seems very contradictory from you.

Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time.
Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.

Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker.
He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him.
Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.

So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.

The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's
You want to draft them
I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency
Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player
If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it.
If not, go looking.

There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft.
If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case.
I've caught up now.

Re kpps.

The value at the draft is the same as any other position.
The value via trade is inflated more than any other position.
For midfielders and small forwards value via trade is a lot cheaper.

Buy low, sell high.

As for free agency, there is 2 problems with your logic imo.
1. Players get to choose where they will go and if you are languishing down the bottom they will choose elsewhere. I expect to be unattractive to free agents.
2. In order to get them otherwise, you pay overs, very much overs and blow up your salary cap in the process and piss off existing players... who take the opportunity to go elsewhere.

Look at when brisbane got fev. Look at the collateral damage that caused. Bradshaw and rischitelli didn't like being shopped around and left. Henderson (a former pick 8) took the opportunity to jump ship...and a 1st rounder went with it.
All for a bloke who played 17 games and was in a salary equivalent to what tdk moved for.

That's how you want to get your kpps?

6
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
That's the crux of the problem
People are looking at a half-finished project as if it's complete
It's a work in progress.
The recruiters may be adopting an approach that you may not agree with.
Those that are concerned with the approach are pessimistic.
Those that are happy with the direction are optimistic.

But until we see how things develop any definitive judgement is premature.
What's gone before has little bearing on the road ahead.
There's a new sheriff and deputy in town with a bit of experience
If they're not happy with the direction...it will change (and a few jobs as well)

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Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
I disagree Kruddler.   A politician would change the argument, cares only about how they're perceived and making their opponent look bad whilst painting themselves in a good light.

I think what you said regarding topping up and going for the flag tilt makes a lot of sense, but its one strategy.  It doesnt mean it would have worked.  It also doesn't mean it was not the right strategy.

Likewise what theyve done instead is only incorrect currently.  It could look very different it two years and be a master stroke.  Had we topped up and then we lost players as we did without experiencing success then how does it look?    would it have been a bottom out this year and a few years in the wilderness? 

We cant know the other path once you start making decisions.

Rightly or wrongly we've employed a strategy. 
8
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
It was absolutely the right thing to do.
I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty.
And that we were looking very light on for youth.
We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.

It's sad for players like Docherty.
It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.

But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.


See i find these comments from you fascinating.

I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.

I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.

Now you say it was the right thing to do?
This seems very contradictory from you.

Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time.
Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.

Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker.
He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him.
Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.

So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.

The difference of opinion lies in how we acquire KPP's
You want to draft them
I want to trade them in, or grab them via free agency
Too much uncertainty about a 'project' player
If you can get a good one in the first round (Dean) go for it.
If not, go looking.

There's been no inconsistency in my opinion we had a problem with youth since I raised it before last years draft.
If anything I was just a bit behind the recruiters who were already on the case.
I've caught up now.
9
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Talk about politician answers thry.

They have A plan. So they have some idea. They are following that script, so they must have some idea.

You get kidnapped, blindfolded and dumped in the middle of nowhere.
Anyone can come up with a plan on whether they should go North, east, south or west. They can follow that plan perfectly.....and go in the complete wrong direction in the process.

Having a plan, and following a plan are a good start......but its the actual plan that i'm struggling to see positives about and all that aside, the confidence in the people (regardless of the plan) that people have and where that confidence comes from.
10
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
@DJC not sure how you are so definitive on the following:

Quote
Do I think that we should have drafted any of the KPFs that were available at our picks.  No I don't.
.

Its very early to tell whether or not this was the correct action or not.  I think that potentially looking at where our list is at, vs where its going to be at, rather than invite a train on player, we might have been better served taking Ludowyke, and not trading the way we did, however it is solely one strategy.

We wont know for quite some time if it was worthwhile. 

Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair?  Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft.  That's what sets them apart from other list managers.

We had a target of the type of players we wanted. We got them, and some future picks in the process.  That's why we got an a-.

Do those who give out those rankings no more about our team and it's needs than those on here? I doubt it, but it's sells papers.

Was that the right strategy?  Not so sure.

So it team followed a plan brilliantly. Fantastic. Not doubting that.

My question though is what makes you think our team know what they are doing better than anyone else?

Everyone has a plan.
Everyone follows that plan.
Why is this plan the right plan when all the other plans are apparently the wrong plan??



On the plans, I think you can only have a look at the strategy and plan, and say there is one, or its devoid of one.

Our guys appear to be following a script, and that script you may disagree with, but its a definite strategy either way you cut it. 

Which means they do have an idea, rather than no idea.

The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry is a saying that harks from somewhere for good reason.