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21
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by DJC -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on


They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!

A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management.  Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players.  Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.

Let me put it to you this way.

Every club has list managers.
Every club has people who kept their job.
Does that mean every club has competent people at the helm?

We have had list managers for decades. How has our success gone over that same period.

I put to you that having a job, or even having someone with credibility overseeing them in that job, does NOT equal competent list managers, or any particular role.

.....and....even if they are deemed competent in that role. Does competent win you flags?

I don't share the blind faith that a lot seem to. Why? Because there is no evidence that they are any different to anyone else we've had and nobody else has been able to give us success.

What is it about the current crop that sets them apart from....
a) Previous people in the same role at this club
b) Their equivalents at other clubs currently.

Provide an answer to them and convince me.

The fact of the matter is that you have a fixed opinion on list management.  Some would call it an idiosyncratic opinion, some may think you're on the money, some may think that you're partly correct and others may think that you're completely wrong.

I, for one, appreciate how difficult AFL list management is.  Do our list managers get it right all of the time? No, none of them do.  Do our list managers get it right most of the time?  Yes they do. 

Would I like to see another gun KPF on our list?  Of course I would.  Do I understand that gun KPFs are as rare as rocking horse dung?  Yes I do.  Do I think that our list managers are doing everything within their power to give Vossy the most potent forward line  possible?  Yes I do.  Do I think that we should have drafted any of the KPFs that were available at our picks.  No I don't.

Do I think that our club's ranking of A- for our list management team's work at the draft is fair?  Yes I do; it was a job very well done in terms of the players drafted, the strategy we followed, our pick trades and our much strengthened hand for the 2026 draft.  That's what sets them apart from other list managers.
22
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!

A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management.  Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players.  Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.

Let me put it to you this way.

Every club has list managers.
Every club has people who kept their job.
Does that mean every club has competent people at the helm?

We have had list managers for decades. How has our success gone over that same period.

I put to you that having a job, or even having someone with credibility overseeing them in that job, does NOT equal competent list managers, or any particular role.

.....and....even if they are deemed competent in that role. Does competent win you flags?

I don't share the blind faith that a lot seem to. Why? Because there is no evidence that they are any different to anyone else we've had and nobody else has been able to give us success.

What is it about the current crop that sets them apart from....
a) Previous people in the same role at this club
b) Their equivalents at other clubs currently.

Provide an answer to them and convince me.
23
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by DJC -
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

They wouldn't have kept their jobs if they weren't!

A couple of months back there was a flurry of excitement about the prospect of Graham Wright taking over and, if not sacking our list management team, taking control of our list management.  Not only did Austin, Agresta and co survive, but Wright was in there with them as they negotiated terrible trades and pick swaps and drafted the wrong players.  Either Austin and Agresta managed to corrupt Wright or they have been on the right track all along.
24
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Baggers -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Baggers – on
I strongly suspect that our list management leadership team is very well aware of what we need in the short term and what our longer term needs are.

Based on all their past successes?

I draw your attention to the fact we now have much improved list management folks at the helm. Time to let go of the past, K.
27
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
It was absolutely the right thing to do.
I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty.
And that we were looking very light on for youth.
We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.

It's sad for players like Docherty.
It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.

But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.


See i find these comments from you fascinating.

I was highlighting time is running out, so we needed to start drafting our spine replacements. I was told by you, and others, that either we had plenty of time or we had enough cover with what we had.

I was also told i was thinking of the now with recruiting these replacements when all along i was trying to prepare for this very moment.

Now you say it was the right thing to do?
This seems very contradictory from you.

Of course, that aside is still doesn't conform if it is the right time.
Geelong and Collingwood wouldn't have done it. They've been ready to fall off the age cliff for the better part of 2 decades now in geelongs case, less so for the pies, but still, they are old and holding on.

Eg pendles if he plays on after next year will play against Cody walker.
He not only played with his dad, but was drafted just 2 years after him.
Imagine if they started a rebuild like we did when we did.

So no, i don't think it was the right thing to do. I think had we drafted kpps when i flagged it, we wouldn't need to be doing one now either.
28
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by LP -
Quote from: DJC – on
In other words, while clearly better informed than most supporters, Doc’s list management opinion is just that.
All personal opinions show bias, it's why clubs have committees of management.

Even so you can still find decisions being dominated by emotions and individuals, it's sometimes hard to cut the apron string. Some of this debate shows it, with welded on opinions about how we played and structured up in the past, and why we need it to continue versus change. Change is tough.
29
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by DJC -
Quote from: Lods – on
It was absolutely the right thing to do.
I wrote before last year's draft that the time was running out for the class of 2015, and by extension Cripps and Docherty.
And that we were looking very light on for youth.
We've addressed that in the last two drafts and we're looking much better in terms of the future.

It's sad for players like Docherty.
It may have influenced Silvagni and Curnow.

But I'm not sure who we could have added in that recruiting period after the prelim that would have made a significant difference.

Doc’s preference was understandable coming from the perspective of a player in the twilight of his career.  It wasn’t informed by the truckloads of data accumulated by all list managers and probably didn’t take into consideration the availability of players with the potential to improve our list.

In other words, while clearly better informed than most supporters, Doc’s list management opinion is just that.
30
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
Its a catch 22.  Do you do a Geelong, try load up and get that flag?

We were soundly beaten by the best side in the comp (Brisbane) in finals, and were able to match it with the also rans in our other finals well enough.

I think they've calculated that if things went perfectly, we could have been in the frame for a flag, but they havent, and as a result, we havent been in that frame properly.  

Personally, you can only put yourself in the mix.  We had all the ingredients, but the game went away from our strength and towards our weakness, and no individual acquisition would likely have changed us sufficiently to do anything but wind up like the crows of the 2025 season.  As soon as Rankine went out, they went from rolled gold, to rubbish.