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21
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: PaulP – on

In scope, duration, contemporaneous and enduring trauma and devastation caused, and a whole bunch of other effects, the Euro American slave trade is without equal.
Rome wasn't built in a day, nor the pyramids.

I can't think of a Spanish equivalent, or Portuguese, but I'm sure they exist.

What is the cut-off date for the awakening?

A slave in the Aztec empire didn't have a lot of longevity.

But if you take in the European actions in Africa (Belgians in the Congo was particularly harsh) and add it to the Transatlantic trade (many didn't even make it through the voyage) you can probably make a fair case for effects that are still impacting today.
23
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)
Last post by LP -
I'm shocked to hear it, but it appears RedTrump's government has inadvertently been reporting dodgy figures, who'd have thunk it?

Where would they have got that idea, fake news?

It seems under audit, the real growth figure was less than half the originally reported figure, a 50% error! Horrendous given that much of the growth reported was from tariffs that now must be refunded, which they do not want to do, well it seems they can't because they are technical broke! :o Quantitive easing anyone?

Even worse news, despite the best efforts of The DOGEy Brothers, the cost to the US Economy actually went up, somebody has a bank balance that is bursting! I wonder who? Guess what the tabulation error was, 50%, what a coincidence, easy to remember though! ::)

Haff, Dubble, Haff, Dubble ..................

Growth down, costs up, profit a loss, maybe they are getting ready for a big tax deduction! :D

Perhaps RedTrump can write the US a cheque(loan), what interest rate will he charge?

They could appoint an experience corporate type to run the joint, someone with first class experience saving a flagging global enterprise. Ivana, ............... too soon?
24
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Last post by DJC -
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: DJC – on
...............................................

Australia was one of the 52 nations that abstained and that has drawn criticism from the left.  However, I think that there's merit in Britain's argument that it is wrong to "create a hierarchy of historical atrocities"...............................

I think we need to be wary, as per the Trump/Jacinta/Albanese comparison, of falling into the trap of false equivalence. The list of atrocities by humans is seemingly endless, but some are indisputable worse than others. The point that "all slavery is bad, why should slave trade x get the attention", has been discussed a lot. In scope, duration, contemporaneous and enduring trauma and devastation caused, and a whole bunch of other effects, the Euro American slave trade is without equal.

I'm not sure that it's quite so clear cut, and that's why I don't think that a hierarchy is appropriate.

It's estimated that at least 10% and probably as much as 25% of the Scandinavian population were slaves during the Viking age and the vast majority of those captured by the Vikings were sold on to slave traders from the Middle East.  Mitochondrial DNA studies of the Icelandic population indicate that more than 60% of the initial colonising female population were Gaelic and most likely slaves.  Then there's the Arab or Trans-Saharan slave trade that endured from the 7th to the 20th century and involved the enslavement of an estimated 9M Africans in the Middle East.
26
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Last post by LP -
Quote from: PaulP – on

In scope, duration, contemporaneous and enduring trauma and devastation caused, and a whole bunch of other effects, the Euro American slave trade is without equal.
Rome wasn't built in a day, nor the pyramids.

I can't think of a Spanish equivalent, or Portuguese, but I'm sure they exist.

What is the cut-off date for the awakening?
28
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Last post by PaulP -
Quote from: DJC – on
...............................................

Australia was one of the 52 nations that abstained and that has drawn criticism from the left.  However, I think that there's merit in Britain's argument that it is wrong to "create a hierarchy of historical atrocities"...............................

I think we need to be wary, as per the Trump/Jacinta/Albanese comparison, of falling into the trap of false equivalence. The list of atrocities by humans is seemingly endless, but some are indisputable worse than others. The point that "all slavery is bad, why should slave trade x get the attention", has been discussed a lot. In scope, duration, contemporaneous and enduring trauma and devastation caused, and a whole bunch of other effects, the Euro American slave trade is without equal.
29
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: DJC – on
Compulsory work for those serving prison sentences is a legitimate part of judicial punishment.  It's not slavery as there's no legal ownership of prison inmates by governments.
Some might disagree with the 'legitimate' part.
Some believe its a human rights violation.

That aside though, i think the biggest issue in the US is not what they do in the jail, but rather what they do to get people into jail.

Its a bit old hat now, but the documentary 'Making a murderer' highlights issue with the law enforcement and legal system.
Yes, that is but 1 example, but its way more common than anyone would like to admit.

There is the 'conspiracys' of crack cocaine being introduced to get black people into jail. Rules around penalties for that vs 'normal cocaine' used by 'white people' certainly defy a logical alternative to said consipiracy. Looking into how, where and why 'crack' even exists is a slippery slope into a world highlighting these injustices.

That is but 1 (or 2) example(s).

For mine, that is MORE of an issue then making prisoners work.
30
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: General Discussions
Last post by DJC -
Quote from: PaulP – on
Interested to see the results of the recent vote in the UN to declare the Transatlantic slave trade "the gravest crime against humanity." 123 states voted in favour, 52 abstentions, and 3 states voted against.

The three nations that voted against the resolution were the USA, Israel and Argentina.  The USA's vote is predictable in that sanitising slavery is one of MAGA's core objectives.  Israel simply doesn't want anyone else to take the focus off the Holocaust and  Argentina's foreign policy is virtually in lockstep with the USA and Israel.

Australia was one of the 52 nations that abstained and that has drawn criticism from the left.  However, I think that there's merit in Britain's argument that it is wrong to "create a hierarchy of historical atrocities". 

The Transatlantic slave trade was undoubtedly a crime against humanity.  But so was the abduction and enslavement of more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids by North African pirates that depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall, and as far away as Iceland.  Of course, the medieval Viking business model was based on the abduction and selling into slavery of whoever they could get and particularly Irish, Welsh, English, Franks and Slavs - and the word slave is derived from Slav.  Slavery in all of its forms is a crime against humanity and the belief that humans can be owned is an abomination.

A friend and former colleague is involved in the Western Australian Legacies of British Slavery Project that has looked into slave wealth and culture as a significant and ongoing historical force.  You can look at their research here:

https://australian-legacies-slavery.org/walbs-slaverys-legacies/

One thing that I didn't realise was that when the British Government abolished slavery in 1833, it granted £20 million of taxpayers' money to be paid by British taxpayers to former slave-owners in compensation for their loss of property.

Compulsory work for those serving prison sentences is a legitimate part of judicial punishment.  It's not slavery as there's no legal ownership of prison inmates by governments.