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21
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by DJC -
I don't think anyone would question the time and effort Kruddler puts into his analysis of list management and other discussion points.  However, there's plenty to question about his methodology, assumptions and conclusions, and that's what helps make this place tick.

Again, I don't think anyone here would be unhappy if we were to draft the next Jonathan Brown, but there's a much greater chance that any club hoping for a Jonathan Brown will end up with a Jonathon Patton.  Bringing in another Stephen Kernahan via trade or free agency would be far more likely to be successful.

The scuttlebutt is that we were interested in Louis Emmett but the Bulldogs snapped him up.  Would the "draft a KPF" crew been happy with that?  What about if the rest of the scuttlebutt is correct and he's going to be developed as a KPD?

What annoys me about the criticism of our list management team's work at the draft is not so much the bleating about not picking a KPF, no matter how banged up or unready for AFL he might have been.  It's the downplaying of the fact that we snared the best KPP in the draft.  All I read is 'he can't play on 200cm KPFs', 'we only got him because he's a father-son pick', 'he won't be ready for AFL', he's too short', 'he won't be as good as Jack', 'we've put all our eggs in one basket', 'we should have drafted a KPF instead of a KPD', why didn't we draft a State league KPP?', 'we could have taken [insert any delisted rookie KPP]' ...

Drafting Harry Dean (and Jack Ison) was a masterclass in NGA player development and astute list management.  That is probably why both Fox and ESPN rate our work at the draft as equal third best ... but what would they know?  And they're probably following an agenda.

22
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on
The bar isn't set low.
It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.

All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year.
But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.

He gets a pass because we had injuries?
Its not the injuries that killed us, it was the lack of talent behind our starters that killed us.

Now who would be responsible for that?
Perhaps if we didn't have 13 small forwards on the list we could've coped with injuries better?

The lack of a balanced most was exposed by injuries and he still gets a free pass out of it?

Its all tied together.

The injuries weren't all to talls.
All lines were affected.
And so he adds to the depth in the latest draft with...A tall, a mid and a small...and trades in some goal kicking ability.
Depth seems to have been a priority...still he cops it.
The use of the term a 'free pass' is a bit nonsensical given the criticism from some areas.

23
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
The bar isn't set low.
It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.

All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year.
But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.

He gets a pass because we had injuries?
Its not the injuries that killed us, it was the lack of talent behind our starters that killed us.

Now who would be responsible for that?
Perhaps if we didn't have 13 small forwards on the list we could've coped with injuries better?

The lack of a balanced most was exposed by injuries and he still gets a free pass out of it?

Its all tied together.
24
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: Blue Moon – on
Looking at those past finishes, Carlton has been in the dead zone. There are reasons and explanations but facts are facts. I am reasonably confident about how this year's trade and draft went, despite players we lost, but we should know pretty early whether we are going to be mediocre again this year.

That's the bottom line.
How next year pans out.
Everything else is just a guess.
My own feeling is we may start a little slowly as the new players find their place, and then be better later in the year.
That may not be the best for Voss, but hopefully he gets the whole year for judgement.
25
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Blue Moon -
Looking at those past finishes, Carlton has been in the dead zone. There are reasons and explanations but facts are facts. I am reasonably confident about how this year's trade and draft went, despite players we lost, but we should know pretty early whether we are going to be mediocre again this year.
26
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Quote from: Lods – on
So when he started we were 16th
From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.

2020 11th
2021 13th
2022 9th
2023 5th-prelim
2024 injury hit and still finished 8th
2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th

That's terrible list management...building a prelim side.
He should be sacked.
People have short memories ::)  ::)

The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons.
So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.


Stkilda made the eight in 2020 and 2023 and no one would call them successful.
Your idea of success is setting the bar very low. Supporters are being conditioned to accept mediocrity, finishing 11th would have triggered a Navy Blue Royal Commission back in the glory days but like the Saints making the eight for us is to be celebrated like a premiership now unfortunately. In fact Stkilda tried the same tactics as us this past draft/trade period when in 2019 they brought in Howard, Butler,Jones, Ryder and Hill as readymade players and as we know with limited success, triggering a fresh rebuild. A similar outcome for us wouldn't surprise...

'Days of yore expectations' are unrealistic in a modern 18 team competition.
Even a dinosaur like me realises that...
They're twice as hard to win, even moreso given the restrictions on clubs.
A Royal Commission would completely exonerate anyone involved in the 2025 debacle, especially the list manager.
Voss gets a pass.
Austin has little if any control over club dynamics.

The bar isn't set low.
It's set unrealistically high by ignoring all that occurred with the club during the season just gone.

All any supporter can ask for is continued improvement each year.
But that path is rarely a straight line and there will be peaks and troughs which usually occur around the availability of players.
27
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by ElwoodBlues1 -
Quote from: Lods – on
So when he started we were 16th
From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.

2020 11th
2021 13th
2022 9th
2023 5th-prelim
2024 injury hit and still finished 8th
2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th

That's terrible list management...building a prelim side.
He should be sacked.
People have short memories ::)  ::)

The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons.
So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.


Stkilda made the eight in 2020 and 2023 and no one would call them successful.
Your idea of success is setting the bar very low. Supporters are being conditioned to accept mediocrity, finishing 11th would have triggered a Navy Blue Royal Commission back in the glory days but like the Saints making the eight for us is to be celebrated like a premiership now unfortunately. In fact Stkilda tried the same tactics as us this past draft/trade period when in 2019 they brought in Howard, Butler,Jones, Ryder and Hill as readymade players and as we know with limited success, triggering a fresh rebuild. A similar outcome for us wouldn't surprise...
30
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
So when he started we were 16th
From memory SOS took care of the 2019 draft so 2020 is probably his.

2020 11th
2021 13th
2022 9th
2023 5th-prelim
2024 injury hit and still finished 8th
2025-all the drama in the world and still finished 11th

That's terrible list management...building a prelim side.
He should be sacked.
People have short memories ::)  ::)

The last two years have actually been backwards for obvious (to most) reasons.
So we do need and have a change in emphasis, we need to cover some losses and get back on track....but by no means a major rebuild.