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21
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by ElwoodBlues1 -
Quote from: Lods – on
Seriously. ::)
Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.

But to suggest that  he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.

I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.

I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.


Not always is a stretch of the truth, try " never", 20-30 years of failure tells the story of a club who failed to embrace the draft from day one and whose list management strategies have been ineffective for the majority of the time.
Krud like any other supporter is vindicated in being skeptical of any List Management decisions and at least provides detail and background to his theories rather than the clubs lack of accountability hidden under a Navy Blue blur of PR and spin. How does having access to more resources give the List Management at the club any credibility when clearly the results dont back up that implication? and in fact having more access to greater resources only makes their performance even more questionable over the journey.
22
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Seriously. ::)
Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.

But to suggest that  he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.

I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.

I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.

Let me be clear.....i have my own personal opinions on who i would draft and when, and i don't think i've ever suggested that my knowledge on any given player is greater than the clubs.

That is not the point.

I always point to a 'type' that we need and i might offer a suggestion based on 'the wisdom of the masses' and phantom drafts etc on who should be available at our pick who fits that type. In this instance it was ludowycke. Last year it was one/either of the twins.

Now club preferred Emmett, so be it, i dont care, its fits the bill, do it.

So lets not fixate on the names, its never been about the names.

I've given the list management team the benefit of the doubt many a year over based on all the excuses i hear every year.
- We didn't have the picks.
- There wasn't anyone talented enough at our pick
- We had greater needs elsewhere
- This was a shallow draft for talls
- Maybe nobody wanted to trade with us
- This player was too good to pass up on.

All valid excuses in any one year. Maybe even a couple years.
You can't go the better part of a decade recycling those excuses though. There comes a time where you can (and should) make things happen. At the end of the day, we simply haven't.

I've run out of patience.
I flagged the need to get backups up to speed before Charlie and Harry and Weiters etc get to retirement/declining output age and it simply isn't happening and if that is not on the list management team to sort out, then please tell me which department is responsibile and i'll direct my arguments at them instead.

Last year i said our list got worse, and few agreed....well that and some injuries proved that it clearly did.
This year i'm saying the same and thats yet to be confirmed.....but if i'm correct, there will be enough egg on faces to feed a starving nation.....and i'd love to hear what excuses people have lined up this year.

One last thing....how many people picked either Lewis Young or Mitch McGovern in their bests teams? These 2 players were basically told to look elsewhere because they are not up to scratch and not the future. Both of these guys have been retained and both are in line for a started KP role simply due to lack of other options, and are our best backups at worst.
Does that not set off alarm bells with people?
23
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by kruddler -
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on

I flagged at the end of night 1 that we should trade up 3 spots to ensure we get 'our guy' whoever that may be. This is before we let someone else bid on ison ensuring it would allow us to get both.

Opportunity was there, it didn't happen, i can't buy that excuse.

Of course you can't buy it.
Because we 'play' draft night (and the trade period also) in our minds and on keyboards and not in the 'real' world.
And in our world everything plays out to get the result we desire.

We have no idea of the discussion between clubs and only a vague, and often biased, knowledge of list management priorities for the night and how they affect the make up of a list for the following year and in the future.

We don't see or hear the talks between clubs (other than maybe some vague report that they are discussing a player or picks).
We don't see or hear the offers that club make on the night.
We don't know the offers to trade up or down that are rejected.
We arent privy to the phone calls.
We have absolutely no idea of other clubs strategies and priorities and why they would be willing to trade up or down a couple of spots (they may have an interest in exactly the same player).

If you can think of a scenario, a list management team has probably also thought of the same scenario, but with  much greater appreciation of the pros and cons... and the obstacles.

We look at a draft profile and see "Ooh, He's tall and he has more strengths than weaknesses, lets pick him!"
We don't spend hours observing these young players actually playing, and talking to them, which sometimes might reveal something other than playing ability, that might make a club hit pause on the player or overlook them completely.

And then we ask, WTF were they thinking :D  :D

A couple of things.

I'm not saying pick player x because i've watched him more than anyone else.

I concede the club watches a lot more than i or anyone does. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes.

In this instance i'm talking specifically about the player YOU raised that was flagged as a need/want by the club by those in the know. There were 4 players mentioned, we got 3 of them (albeit 2 of them were f/s academy picks) the 4th was the one in question - Emmett.

The line, "well he didn't last until our pick" is simply poor list management. If we want and/or need someone, you do what you need to do to get them.
Yes, some years its true.
100% it is not true every year for the past 10 years!
That is what i can't buy.

I've been flagging the same thing for years. Draft KPPs BEFORE you need them. We simply haven't done enough of that which has been evident by how we've been unable to cover injuries to this area in the past.
Whether or not we completely change how we 'build a team' from here is a common argument.....and thats fine. But that doesn't take into account Harry is a year closer to retirement and his replacement is still not on the list....and perhaps, like Charlie, won't be on the list until after he's already gone.

So....going back to Emmett.
IF we wanted him and rated him. like the tea leaves suggest, then we failed to deliver in getting him.
Maybe this year they 'really tried' and nobody would have it. Perhaps thats true.
What about last year?
What about the year before?
What about the year before that?

There is always 'some' excuse that people come up with to defend the list management team. Why?
There seems to be a field of Melbourne Cup winning horses paraded past us and every year we pass on them because we are looking for a unicorn instead. Someone who is elite, but 'free'. Well unicorns don't exist, so change tact.

So again, this isn't me being dirty about 'my guy', this about who we as a club rated.....and didn't get, so don't play that card.
24
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Seriously. ::)
Kruddler makes some valid arguments that on the face of things may make many people question the club list management direction.

But to suggest that  he does so without the full resources, effort and background knowledge that the club possesses isn't lazy...it's a fact.

I think the problem is that in presenting a lot of information contrary to the club's direction it is also presented as a 'fact' rather than an opinion.

I'm truly sorry if the 'club knows a little more' about the draftees' hits a nerve. It's just something I happen to believe...and yes it may not always end in a desired outcome, but that doesn't mean multiple options haven't been explored. It's like an iceberg...we only see the tip and the final result.

26
Blah-Blah Bar / Re: Shawny’s concerns about Victorian and Australian Governments
Last post by Gointocarlton -
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Dunno whether to laugh or cry, AFP boss says the Bondi shootings were "not religious". Um, 15 people were murdered because they were Jewish. If that's not religiously motivated I don't know WTF is. She needs to be relieved of her duties immediately.

Paul recently posted:

Quote from: PaulP – on
Robert Pape has done significant work in the related and adjacent space of suicide attacks and terrorism. His book Dying To Win contains original research and is now a landmark study in the field. It may surprise some that most people who carry out such attacks are not motivated by religion. As Pape shows, their scriptural literacy and interest in religion is low. Many of the attackers are secular. What motivates them more than anything is foreign powers doing s h i t t y things to their people and on their land, removing any possibility of self determination and removing any chance of building a life of some meaning and purpose.

Material conditions always take precedence over theological principles and considerations.

Many other researchers have drawn the same conclusions as Pape, almost all terrorists, and particularly lone wolf terrorists, are motivated by the real and/or perceived repression of those they identify with.  The slaughter of 70,000 Palestinians since October 2023 is the likely motivation with the victims representing Netanyahu's IDF.  Krissy Barrett is correct, the Bondi terrorist attack wasn't religious even if the intended and actual victims were Jewish.
And the October 7 slaughter of Jews by Palestinians? Let me guess, they didnt like the music at the Music Festival?
28
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Thryleon -
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Kruddler goes to great effort to discuss list management and pulling out the old club knows more than you is just lazy and discourages people from participating.

Im not saying don't cricitise.  Its hard for me to know.  I would have selected a tall at this draft, but how do I overule them on anything when I dont know?  I watched two videos of talls.  Ludowyk, and Curin.  To me, Curtin was the better prospect, but it was a highlight reel.


And, also dont sit there saying we have blind faith in the list management team, when its difficult to have an alternative viewpoint unless you are connected in recruiting circles.
30
Robert Heatley Stand / Re: List Building - More than one way to skin a cat
Last post by Lods -
Quote from: madbluboy – on
No one can comment on anything here then, shut the forum down.

What are you talking about?
Everyone can raise points of discussion
Everyone else has the right to challenge those.
That's what discussion forums are all about.
Give an example of where people have been told they shouldn't comment.

If someone wants to use a set of figures, or a table, or a team sheet to make a point then they should be prepared for the point they are making to be challenged.
If someone find the challenges not to their liking pick another thread.
The code of conduct spells out actions and issues that may not be appropriate.