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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 105251 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #90 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
(i think) we are talking about the collingwood one, and I'm taking the piss by blaming everything on sos
Yes, I agree it's SOS' fault, before he failed to roll up to the 100th celebrations for SoJ would have said otherwise!

I expect to calm down about that sometime between now and never! >:(
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #91 –
I’m trying to work out how trading in package deals of GWS players - most of which paid dividends - stopped us drafting someone that nobody wanted 🤔
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #92 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I’m trying to work out how trading in package deals of GWS players - most of which paid dividends - stopped us drafting someone that nobody wanted 🤔

Okay then ............

SOS drafted Macreadie at #47, the Pies drafted Cameron with the next pick at #48.

Macreadie played 8 games in four seasons whilst Cameron is nearing 60-games and is an integral apart of their push for the flag.

If Macreadie was considered decent, GWS would have matched the bid but they didn't.

This all comes back to my point in another thread that we need to improve our hit-rate at the draft, yes, its hindsight revisionism but it is one that sticks out like a sore thumb. 
"The Other Teams Can Rot In Hell"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #93 –
I'm not sure exactly where this discussion is going, or what the point is to be honest.

Cameron was originally drafted to the Swans with pick 48 as a mature age player. He did 2/5 of SFA at Sydney, which is why in three seasons he played 1 game and was then traded to the Pies (with pick 62) in return for pick 56. He's starting to look OK now because a. he's been in system a while, and b. because all players start to look better when the team is going well. I don't recall too much talk about Cameron before this season. If it was Carlton rather than Sydney, he would have been lambasted as another wasted pick.

You can look at any draft, and find a bloke taken later who has done well, in comparison to a bloke taken earlier. You can make any random connection you like. In the same draft Pat Lipinski was taken before Shai Bolton, Jordan Gallucci before Todd Marshall, Ryan Garthwaite before Nick Larkey etc. I'm not sure what the point is, other than perhaps allowing fans to indulge in what must surely be the No1 football supporter trope, i.e bemoaning "the one that got away."

If you do a player comparison on footywire between Cameron and Pittonet, the numbers certainly are in Cameron's favour (generally). But there's nothing in his history to indicate the sort of progression he made.

Personally I don't mind seeing a battler start to do well. I'm happy for Cameron, but he was a hit and hope pick by the Pies, the sort of speculative pick that all clubs take. Some work and some don't.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #94 –
Quote from: LordLucifer – on
Okay then ............

SOS drafted Macreadie at #47, the Pies drafted Cameron with the next pick at #48.

Macreadie played 8 games in four seasons whilst Cameron is nearing 60-games and is an integral apart of their push for the flag.

If Macreadie was considered decent, GWS would have matched the bid but they didn't.

This all comes back to my point in another thread that we need to improve our hit-rate at the draft, yes, its hindsight revisionism but it is one that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Cameron was drafted by the Swans and traded to Collingwood for a packet of peanuts.  He played one game in his first three seasons with the Swans.  In the same period, Macreadie played nine games and, after showing some promise in his first season, was shown the door.  If we had drafted Cameron instead of Macreadie, and he managed the same one game in three seasons, he would have been on your "Sacked" or "Time has run out" lists by the end of his second season.

The Swans couldn't see a future for Cameron.  Collingwood took a risk and it paid off.  We got Pitto at the same time (for another packet of peanuts) and I'm happy with that, particularly when you consider that Pitto is a year younger.  In fact, have a look at their statistics for the years when they were 25.

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #95 –
On the ruckman discussion. Jed Brereton played in a VFL practice match this year to good reports, but doesn't appear to have played VFL matches. Are we interested in him as an AFL prospect?
Ab

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #96 –
Point with Collingwood is they have become competitive with very low profile moneyball talent recruiting and that their ruck division is made up of Cameron a retred nobody and Cox a wild shot in the dark rookie from another country who had zero background in the game.
Cox isnt a great ruckman but is a giant who is hard to get around and also when he plays forward is hard to mark against so the ball is on the deck a lot and thats where Collingwood want it.
Cameron is very mobile and ideal for the around the ground role and can also rest forward and isnt a one trick pony ruckman.
Both these players were not risks at all, they were low cost gambles at worst...picking a ruckman with a top ten pick is a risk or having them on big contracts and then they get injured is a bigger risk.
With both of them out the Pies are vulnerable and while both are not elite players its messed with the Collingwood system and I can see them losing a few games vs the better teams.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #97 –
Quote from: Adelaideblue – on
On the ruckman discussion. Jed Brereton played in a VFL practice match this year to good reports, but doesn't appear to have played VFL matches. Are we interested in him as an AFL prospect?
Ab

Brereton has played one VFL game and was OK.  He has a bit of competition for spots with AFL-listed Mirkov and O’Keeffe doing most of the ruckwork and with Lemmey chipping in too.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #98 –
I think with B grade, blue collar ruckmen like Cameron or Pittonet, you really want the basics - give your mids first use as much as possible, take a few relieving marks, lay a tackle or two, throw your weight around and just make your presence known. They are not extractors, nor distributors, nor athletic beasts, nor goal kickers or anything else. If they kick the odd goal, or do something great in defence once in a while, it's a bonus, but these things don't happen often, and for good reason. I think given their roles and abilities, Cameron and Pittonet pretty much cancel each other out, and I don't think it's worth worrying about an extra handball here and there,  one more or less contested possession etc.

If we're going next level and talking about the Gawn / Grundy types, well that's a whole other discussion IMO.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #99 –
After last nite's debacle, I'm well & truly back on this subject (amongst others).

TDK is just a very dumb footballer, does all of the hard work on the goal-line to touch the ball before going through only to punch it straight back into play to a Crows player who kicks the simple goal. Why didn't he do the team orientated & disciplined thing and just get a touch on it and force it through for a point so we can reset from the kick-in ??

You can argue about having or not having ability but the big difference is between the ears and sadly, Tom is not going to get any better than what we are seeing now.  

Put the contract extension off till the end of the season and then take him to the trade table and extract maximum value whilst we can.

As Brother Elwood pointed out, you don't need to pick up serviceable ruckmen with first rounders so there is bound to another good replacement somewhere in the mix.
"The Other Teams Can Rot In Hell"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #100 –
Quote from: LordLucifer – on
After last nite's debacle, I'm well & truly back on this subject (amongst others).

TDK is just a very dumb footballer, does all of the hard work on the goal-line to touch the ball before going through only to punch it straight back into play to a Crows player who kicks the simple goal. Why didn't he do the team orientated & disciplined thing and just get a touch on it and force it through for a point so we can reset from the kick-in ??

You can argue about having or not having ability but the big difference is between the ears and sadly, Tom is not going to get any better than what we are seeing now.  

Put the contract extension off till the end of the season and then take him to the trade table and extract maximum value whilst we can.

As Brother Elwood pointed out, you don't need to pick up serviceable ruckmen with first rounders so there is bound to another good replacement somewhere in the mix.
Tom's biggest problem is that he never rucks to his strengths, always to his weaknesses. He has a very good leap, but you rarely see it. Opposition rucks know they can out-bustle him, so that's the way they play. Tom needs to make the contests on his terms, rather than allowing the opposition to determine how the ruck duels will be fought. if he doesn't, then he'll never be the ruckman we need to take us to the premiership.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #101 –
Quote from: crashlander – on
Tom's biggest problem is that he never rucks to his strengths, always to his weaknesses. He has a very good leap, but you rarely see it. Opposition rucks know they can out-bustle him, so that's the way they play. Tom needs to make the contests on his terms, rather than allowing the opposition to determine how the ruck duels will be fought. if he doesn't, then he'll never be the ruckman we need to take us to the premiership.

And you have near perfectly summed up why I say he is a "dumb" footballer.

If he can't work that out for himself then he has no place on our list.
"The Other Teams Can Rot In Hell"
 

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #102 –
I'm not paying big money for TDK if he can't compete with the likes of O'Brien and needs Pittonet to hold his hand vs the push and shove merchants.
O'Brien is an ok ruckman but isn't one of the top shelf variety and that's concerning...

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #103 –
What bothers me is that we're pushing Mirkov, who is huge but also has a tremendous leap, the same way. We need to get our rucks playing to their strengths rather than the opposite. If the lap is irrelevant, then we need a real bull who is stronger than anyone else. If it is the weapon it could be, we need to set up in a way to use it to our advantage.
Personally, I think having a big leap is a great plus, but it is not damned good if it isn't used. NicNat used to jump over guys who tried to wrestle. The idea is still there.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #104 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
I'm not paying big money for TDK if he can't compete with the likes of O'Brien and needs Pittonet to hold his hand vs the push and shove merchants.
O'Brien is an ok ruckman but isn't one of the top shelf variety and that's concerning...

Marc is the bash and crash ruckman, but he isn't the strongest bull out there and he isn't in the same sort of form he was to start last year. He'll be better next season, as his knee recovery becomes a part of history. But that still leaves us with now. What do we do with Pittonet not there?
I'd be tempted to play Mirkov next week, even though he probably isn't ready. He has that extra height and might just be able to use it. We couldn't be any worse, that is for certain, as Jack is not the solution to our ruck issues.
Live Long and Prosper!