I'll edit the name for the thread depending on the result. I won't be back from the game until late, so... :)
Edited now. Name is quite suitable. :(
Not much you can say about that, neither side kicked 60 points on a fine night with no wind, it was a very poor standard game.
Upside Silvagni, downside Byrne.
The least said about our lack of forwards the better, but let's hope the youngsters come on because what we have now is simply not good enough.
I liked Phillips' game, he'll be ok.
Not much you can say about that, neither side kicked 60 points on a fine night with no wind, it was a very poor standard game.
Upside Silvagni, downside Byrne.
The least said about our lack of forwards the better, but let's hope the youngsters come on because what we have now is simply not good enough.
I liked Phillips' game, he'll be ok.
There's one thing I can say, Everitt is over!
One of the worst games to watch ever, really poor skills and decision-making by many of the players on the ground.
Sadly, we had more of them than they did.
The papers were stamped on a few of the older more experienced players tonight, they did not show anything when we were really screaming out for it.
Thank **** we have Simpson & Docherty !!
Observations from afar. Our back six are looking relatively settled and should be left alone. Our defensive setups are in place and work more often than not. We have found promise in Wright, Lamb, Phillips (and Kerridge / Sumner to a degree). We know that 'tomorrow' shows potential with Curnow, McKay and Silvagni. We are confident that our next trade period will unearth some more talent.
The rule of thumb seems to be to get yourself set up structurally in defence then work forward. I'm satisfied we are on track.
Poor coaching to let Pendlebury be opposed to Cripps...meant the former just ran loose all night and in a game with poor skills from most players the last thing we needed was the most skillful player on the ground getting free ball. Cripps is a great inside player but isnt going to be able to run with a player like Pendlebury in the open and we did lose that matchup badly..
Jack was good, took a brave mark and looked at home....Simpson was reliable, Philips tried hard but there want much else to be enthused about..
Gibbs got a tough tag from Greenwood who roughed him up and we dont have the personnel to return fire... in fact we were bullied I thought and the Pies bigger bodies helped them win the game. We never looked like it but they only won by 12 points which shows you how crap they are....
Sad to see Byrne carried off and he will be a real loss as he gives some run out of defense..
Need another big very Physical mid badly...
Observations from afar. Our back six are looking relatively settled and should be left alone. Our defensive setups are in place and work more often than not. We have found promise in Wright, Lamb, Phillips (and Kerridge / Sumner to a degree). We know that 'tomorrow' shows potential with Curnow, McKay and Silvagni. We are confident that our next trade period will unearth some more talent.
The rule of thumb seems to be to get yourself set up structurally in defence then work forward. I'm satisfied we are on track.
Agree with most of that, still like to see us unearth another big gorilla-minder in defence though. Rowe is only a short-term option and we will be well undersized when he goes shortly.
Not sure what role Walker plays these days other than jumping (unsuccessfully) for everything, gives nothing at deck level, applies little pressure.
Everitt should be played on a wing where he can run around by himself not worrying about an opponent,maybe he could be eeffective in that role. He can deliver the ball long with skill but don't ask him to win his own ball.
Casboult was flogged gave nothing - again.
SOJ's forward smarts shone out like a beacon, the others were in football terms, brainless. No crumbers, no lead up options, no working to create space... Just hit the hot spot and hope somebody catches it. And when we get a shot they burn it wide.
Gutted for Byrne, we need his pace and run.
Kreuzer tries but Grundy flogs him every time.
Cripps is injured, surely he can't be this bad.
We really struggled up forward tonight. No one really stood up to be a target and our talls didn't really fire a shot in Walker, Casboult, Everitt and even Weitering when pushed forward in last quarter. Very disappointed in that area tonight.
what happened to Byrne?
Cripps keeps turning back into traffic and gets caught because the opposition are onto it..he did it last year with effect...but no longer...new tricks please Cripper ;)
Yep EB, I thought we were physically bullied and the umpires stupidly didn't step in and stamp it out, result was plenty of sly stuff and Aish getting nailed. The hit on Docherty? was careless and should have been a report, wasn't even paid as a free!
What has happened to Cripps?
FRONT AND SQUARE! How many times did we bomb it in and nobody was at the front of the packs?
So no 50m penalty for Varcoe's late hit on Byrne? ... which was followed by an oh-so-brave high hit from Cloke? Give me a break. I hate those feckers.
Fly, Varcoe hit Byrne after he disposed of the pill, hyper extended knee and looked like a back of knee ligament issue. In simple terms, not good.
What has happened to Cripps?
He's turning into a tap ruckman, and not a very good one either.
Our centre square and ruck set up ain't working, that's for sure.
He's turning into a tap ruckman, and not a very good one either.
He must be doing it under instruction but it ain't working. Invariably leads to turnovers and more than a couple of goals against over the years.
So no 50m penalty for Varcoe's late hit on Byrne? ... which was followed by an oh-so-brave high hit from Cloke? Give me a break. I hate those feckers.
I know you hate em, me to Ivan, but a long bow there re late hit I reckon ...just a footy incident ...nothing to see here ;)
I know you hate em, me talk Ivan, but a long bow there re late hit I reckon ...just a footy incident ...nothing to see here ;)
The high hit on Touhey was worthy of a free kick.
Looked like something from early in the season when you wouldn't be a Carlton forward for quids.
Need to play another key forward, if it's Jones then so be it. Actually on this year's form I would take Jones over Casboult.
Bombing long to White and Silvagni was never going to work.
If Everitt isn't dropped after that performance, he never will.
Our blokes looked knackered. Battled on but the bottom line is we were beaten tonight by a very ordinary outfit. In fact, most other sides would have belted the cr@p out of Rottingwood this evening.
With Cripps down, Gibbs a lone hand/scragged and no Murphy we were in trouble in the midfield/on-ball... then when you add the absolutely insipid performance of our forward line, in particular Casboult and Everitt (on the few occasions those two got they aggott they gave it back to Rottingwood with laser accuracy), what chance did we have?
When a skinny kid in his first game showed more footy nouse than a couple of your key forwards... well, that speaks for itself.
If Everitt isn't dropped after that performance, he never will.
He seemed to be tagging Sidebottom early and was keeping him quiet but yeah he needed to do more himself.
I don't like blaming the umpires but Gibbs was being held all night at every contest.
Trying hard to keep the faith but it seems the 'coach killers' are back. Skills tonight were woeful. Is there a more inept side in the league when it comes to capitalising on a loose ball in the goal square?
Not saying BB was out-coached but somehow he has to reverse this slide whereby we seem to have lost that exuberance we were showing only a month ago. We should have smelled blood tonight and put this rabble to the sword but I guess you can only work with what you've got - shut down Treloar with Curnow and Pendlebury runs riot, non-existent forward line, etc. We all know the script.
Well I guess the Bolton honeymoon is over... That was an stinky performance from all, apart from Simmo and the doc.. Seriously where would we be without Simmo?
I don't like blaming the umpires but Gibbs was being held all night at every contest.
Plus being held and dragged down as the ball moved on. Usually by 2 pies.
Horrible game by quite frankly - 2 horrible teams. If Collingwood get any solace out of that performance other than the fact that they beat Carlton, then they're very easily pleased. Woeful spectacle in every regard.
I'm just as happy as anyone to have seen Jack debut tonight, but let's not go overboard with the praise....I'm not sure if EB1's comment of "....and looked at home" is entirely true. Yep - had 3 or 4 good moments, but there were other times whereby we thought he looked utterly lost, just running around unnecessarily exhausting himself, with at least 3 attempted kicks barely scraping his boot.....and sorry, if you're at AFL you've got to kick that goal (1st quarter) and take the responsibility in the last (passed off to Gibbs).
Pendelbury tears us a new one every time he plays us & the preparation we put into him appears to be non-existent.....WTF was Bolton doing there? Yet another close to B.O.G. performance by Kreuzer's opponent & Gibbs has barely fired a shot since Murphy was injured (courtesy of the dog Dangerfield dropping his knees into Murphy's legs in a tackle from behind).
Tuohy was disgraceful, Everitt just doesn't look like he gives a krapp, Cripps hasn't played well in weeks, Casboult was a liability & based and on current form, we'll struggle to win again this year.....which mightn't necessarily be a bad thing as far as trade week goes, but it's gonna be tough to sit through based on tonight's performance.....*sigh*
Had a reserved seat ticket tonight so against my better judgement I went along only for my worst fears to be realised. We were just attrocious and the Pies were only very marginally better. Only their most fanatical of supporters could take comfort from that performance.
For us only Simmo and Docherty are worthy of acknowledgement IMO and the rest ranged from very ordinary to putrid, with Everitt being the stand out at the putrid end of the scale. As Baggers previously commented, we looked stuffed by the 3Q and just could not get back to cover on the frequent occasions we turned the ball over trying to go forward.
Another big clearout this year I think.
Horrible game by quite frankly - 2 horrible teams. If Collingwood get any solace out of that performance other than the fact that they beat Carlton, then they're very easily pleased. Woeful spectacle in every regard.
I'm just as happy as anyone to have seen Jack debut tonight, but let's not go overboard with the praise....I'm not sure if EB1's comment of "....and looked at home" is entirely true. Yep - had 3 or 4 good moments, but there were other times whereby we thought he looked utterly lost, just running around unnecessarily exhausting himself, with at least 3 attempted kicks barely scraping his boot.....and sorry, if you're at AFL you've got to kick that goal (1st quarter) and take the responsibility in the last (passed off to Gibbs).
Pendelbury tears us a new one every time he plays us & the preparation we put into him appears to be non-existent.....WTF was Bolton doing there? Yet another close to B.O.G. performance by Kreuzer's opponent & Gibbs has barely fired a shot since Murphy was injured (courtesy of the dog Dangerfield dropping his knees into Murphy's legs in a tackle from behind).
Tuohy was disgraceful, Everitt just doesn't look like he gives a krapp, Cripps hasn't played well in weeks, Casboult was a liability & based and on current form, we'll struggle to win again this year.....which mightn't necessarily be a bad thing as far as trade week goes, but it's gonna be tough to sit through based on tonight's performance.....*sigh*
re: Jack...he had some unsure moments but I thought he also was one of the few forwards who made decent position but was ignored and the mark he took where he could have been cleaned up told me he looked ok out there. You wouldnt find Everitt taking that mark for example.....
Gibbs was tagged hard by Greenwood and intimidated...
Agree on Touhy...Casboult is down on confidence..thought Grundy got a very decent run off the umpires which didnt help Kruezer and Philips...
re: Jack...he had some unsure moments but I thought he also was one of the few forwards who made decent position but was ignored and the mark he took where he could have been cleaned up told me he looked ok out there. You wouldnt find Everitt taking that mark for example.....
Gibbs was tagged hard by Greenwood and intimidated...
Agree on Touhy...Casboult is down on confidence..thought Grundy got a very decent run off the umpires which didnt help Kruezer and Philips...
Fair call on all points EB1 and agree with the Grundy comment.....got an absolute armchair ride from the umpires.
Went along tonight as i had to see the first game of the next generation of Silvagni's coming through.
Sure, there were things Jack could've done better, but there were things he did tonight that you might never see a 10 year player do. That high up and under mark that he not only went for, but took, holy hell. He has his fathers courage! As a barely legal draftee to be taken in one of the last picks in the draft, he has so far exceeded most peoples expectations at this very early stage of his career. Crowd loves him too. Haven't heard a crowd cheer for a debutant like that since Judds first game in Navy Blue!
As for the rest of the team....disappointing.
Starting with Everitt. Send him packing back to the 2's and direct swap Curnow jr into the team and never look back. He was terrible.
Walker needs to play like a small, not a kangaroo.
FFS, can we kick the ball to the advantage of our forwards....like...ever? We kicked it to the advantage of the pies more times than we did our own players, especially inside 50. That's U13's stuff!
Phillips kicks a nice goal. Happy with the ball in his hands.
Simpson will leave a huge hole when he hangs up his sleeves.
Backline, solid.
Midfield, missing and devoid of run.
Forwardline, hamstrung by midfielders, too slow to pull the trigger in front of goal.
That was potentially our only winnable game for the next month. Top 4 draftee coming our way
He must be doing it under instruction but it ain't working. Invariably leads to turnovers and more than a couple of goals against over the years.
What I fail to understand is while he is third man up, we are one less in number on the ground and if he doesn't smash the ball clear if the congestion our best extractor is off balance in a ruck contest!!
Unfortunately that was what I expected... we might have played our best footy for the year, we miss our skipper and our team selection has not been great.
Silvagni showed a bit, couple of nice marks, should have kicked 2... Didn't look out of place... was better than a lot of other players on the ground.
Missing Murph more than we thought we would.
Gibbs hasn't been the same since the Geelong game
Everritt gone backwards this year. C .Curnow will take his place in the side soon.
Levi's bad kicking now extending to general play. Turned the ball over horribly tonight.
Cripps is playing injured. Its obvious.
Walker has been a great servant, but he's finished.
Can someone tell me what Jones has done wrong?
Our forward six functions better with him in it than without him and he is good for one goal a game.
Since he has been dropped we haven't really fired and Casboult has found it much harder to function.
Sure he isn't great, but I thought he was doing enough to keep his spot and that he was stiff to be dropped.
Has been reasonably good with minimal service in the twos too.
Can someone tell me what Jones has done wrong?
Our forward six functions better with him in it than without him and he is good for one goal a game.
Since he has been dropped we haven't really fired and Casboult has found it much harder to function.
Sure he isn't great, but I thought he was doing enough to keep his spot and that he was stiff to be dropped.
Has been reasonably good with minimal service in the twos too.
Coaches prefer two ruckmen and Jones/Gorringe were in while Phillips was injured. I think we just have to choose, Kreuzer or Sauce, because two ruckmen doesn't seem to be working.
Agree with all comments from Brettie, EB, cookie and kruddler.
Jack did a couple of good things, but his game wasn't that great - the fact that this was his first AFL game was blindingly obvious. At any rate, he is a baby and is the least of our problems.
We are either tanking or staggeringly inept.
In the space of a few short seasons, we have gone from a team that had scoring potency, pace, skill and fluency of ball movement to this.
If Everitt isn't dropped after that performance, he never will.
Looked most dos interested in the TV I wonder if he looked any better live?
I can't believe people having a go at silvagni in his first game fmd. His kick for goal in the first should have been a goal but I can't think of a kid under more pressure than him.
I believe he was under instruction to not go up in two many contests and look for space, ala how he contributed to our first goal.
A glimpse of the future and he absolutely belongs out thrre
There's one thing I can say, Everitt is over!
Everitt was poor, Casboult was beyond poor.
Levi is averaging single figure possessions and under a goal a game so far this season, he's 26 and won't be getting any better.
I can't believe people having a go at silvagni in his first game fmd. His kick for goal in the first should have been a goal but I can't think of a kid under more pressure than him.
I believe he was under instruction to not go up in two many contests and look for space, ala how he contributed to our first goal.
A glimpse of the future and he absolutely belongs out thrre
He played pretty much as I expected, given the reports from the NB's and given it was his first game . He only got out of nappies 5 minutes ago - I wasn't expecting 3 Brownlow votes, 4 goals and a BOG, especially given the rest of the team.
Yes, I thought Jack made a positive start for us and did not flinch when he went for the high balls. Pity his debut had to be against the backdrop of such a dismal team effort.
Casboult certainly was right up there with Everitt for crapness and surely will be lucky to survive unless he turns it around very soon?
Jack looked a little uncertain at times which is understandable in your first game but he does seem to know what he's doing. 15 possies 6 marks and 4 tackles. Really should have had 2 goals as well. With him and Charlie and Harry our fwd line looks like it will get better. That lets us move out underperformers like Everitt and Walker and maybe Casboult, none of whom seem to be able to get enough of the ball on a regular basis. Lamb and Sumner can fight it out for the other small fwd spot. A bit of competition between them wont hurt. Also need a really lively goal sneak who can make a goal out of nothing. I'm not going to dwell on how we lost Eddie, we don't have a time machine, but he is the sort of player that would round that fwd line out.
The back 6 looks fairly settled although it is a real shame about Byrne.
We need more toigh and hard running quality on the ball.
A bit more time into the young talent, a couple of good mids, and a quality small fwd and i think we'll have the core of a competitive side. A little bit of skill and luck required at draft and trade time and we might become a finals side in the next couple of years. But for now we know where we are at. I can see some promising green shoots and that was always what this year was about.
We are 14 games into a 66 game rebuild, and last night, that's exactly how we looked - a side that's about 21 % complete.
When you look at some of the stats, there's no question that some things are working, but not nearly enough.
As a barely legal draftee to be taken in one of the last picks in the draft, he has so far exceeded most peoples expectations at this very early stage of his career.
That would be true if you're talking about non-Carlton people.
IIRC, Scott Lucas opined that he relies on footy smarts to find free space. In other words, he's like Lance Whitnall without the weight rather than a Levi Casboult. His leading patterns will therefore be a bit more convoluted and it'll take his team mates a while to adjust. He's only 191 cm and AFAIK isn't a huge leaper, so we wouldn't want to see him attempting too many pack marks. With his genes and the coaching his old man has given him, he should be a brilliant one-on-one mark when he puts on weight.
Gutted for Ciaran Byrne. His impact as a rebounding defender has been immense. If he does have to have a traditional reco, I hope homesickness won't become irresistible.
Anyone have any inside knowledge on Byrne?
God awful game, really highlights the need for some class in the midfield. Gibbs was being clung to all the time, Cripps seems to want to do the fancy stuff more than the meat and potatoes. Curnow tries his guts out and should win our best and fairest this season but he is not the skilled mid. We looked slow and clumsy.
Down back, where would we be without Simmo, he was outstanding last night, in fact while I said Curnow should take out the B&F, I might strike that and name Kade. Docherty is being sat on a bit more,but when he can straight line a ball he looks outstanding. Weitering looks to be hitting the rookie wall, not as sure handed as he was at the start of the season. Plowman looked slow and reactive last night, I want him to be better and hopefully he can get an uninterrupted pre-season.
Kerridge, Sumner, Everitt, Walker very ordinary all round. Thomas and Wright decent but nothing special. Casboult - blah, Kruezer - yawn and Philips decent. They all seem to want to fly at the same ball, there is no forward structure, no separation, no football IQ.
This brings me to young Jack Silvagni, I don't understand the negative comments. This is a young kid, who would struggle to weigh 80Kgs wringing wet. He threw himself at the ball, found space in a forward line when no one else could. Gave a couple of nice handballs to advantage, was one of the few that could kick to advantage of his team mates and jumped in and flew that flag for Simmo I think. I'm sure he ran around a bit lost and he must kick those goals inside 30m, but as far as debuts go it was a good place to start.
No Murphy, No Armfield made an average speed side look very slow indeed, now Byrne is gone, we'll look slower again.
If this match showed us anything it's that we're settling to where we should be bottom 4-6, we need skill and pace and we are rebuilding.
We are 14 games into a 66 game rebuild, and last night, that's exactly how we looked - a side that's about 21 % complete.
Indeed, we have to keep reminding ourselves of this!
A good indicator of our spirit is how we stand the mark. When we were on the boil not long ago we were doing that Hawthorn half step extra and showing some real desire. Last night it was the old hang back and fall asleep routine.
I wonder if we're doing the same amount of talking on the field that even opposition payers commented on not long ago. I'm thinking not.
We've found out how valuable Murf is now that he hasn't been there for an extended period. When he did his shoulder we had Judd but now there is no one to fill the hole to add that extra spark.
Jack is going to be something special. It was a pleasure to watch him last night and be reminded of his ol man. He's got poise and style, we'll just have to wait patiently until he fills out, like a good wine.
An all round underwhelming night at the footy. Was pretty distracted by the election results flowing in, so the standard of the game made it easy to turn away at times.
My old man remarked that he has now seen three generations of Silvagnis make their debut. SoJ was fine, he has the makings of an agile half forward flanker that knows how to find space. He is a long way off regular senior footy, but there were good signs.
As for the rest, we mostly stunk it up, against a side that stunk just a little less.
The usual duds have been covered: everitt and casboult are not much good and neither is going to get any better. They will be turned over in the next couple of years, and we must pray that c curnow and mckay develop into the key forwards we need.
We miss murphy badly at the moment; his clean hands mean a second posession after a clearence is more likely to be to advantage. Kerridge and Curnow cannot do this, so fumbles were had all round.
Very disappointed for byrne. He is one of the few pacy players we have. With our lack of leg spead we are more reliant on clean disposal and good decision making.
Thought phillips played a good game and got around the ground well. He showed plenty of fight too. Two ruckmen is the best option for the style of footy played now. Kruezer started well taking two strong marks in the first quarter but faded. Perhaps it is under instruction, but he often got close to casboult when our defenders were kicking down the lines, forming a pack. With our weak midfield, the ball could be cleared and sent back. Providing more of a midfield option may be better, but he aint quick.
Our best were again simpson, docherty, and gibbs who battled hard against a tag.
Jack is very smart player for an 18 year old.. a few more games and a pre season under his belt will do him the world of good getting confidence to take on more responsibility.
Kerridge, Sumner, Everitt, Walker very ordinary all round. Thomas and Wright decent but nothing special. Casboult - blah, Kruezer - yawn and Philips decent. They all seem to want to fly at the same ball, there is no forward structure, no separation, no football IQ.
Agree not good enough and we need better players.
But we still have a weak group of youngsters coming through so we need to keep going to the draft.
Having said that.....when Charlie and McKay are fit they should play
That would be true if you're talking about non-Carlton people.
IIRC, Scott Lucas opined that he relies on footy smarts to find free space. In other words, he's like Lance Whitnall without the weight rather than a Levi Casboult. His leading patterns will therefore be a bit more convoluted and it'll take his team mates a while to adjust. He's only 191 cm and AFAIK isn't a huge leaper, so we wouldn't want to see him attempting too many pack marks. With his genes and the coaching his old man has given him, he should be a brilliant one-on-one mark when he puts on weight.
Gutted for Ciaran Byrne. His impact as a rebounding defender has been immense. If he does have to have a traditional reco, I hope homesickness won't become irresistible.
If Jack can turn into a player as effective as Lance Whitnall, i'll take that every day of the week. I doubt he'll be plagued by the same kind of problems as lance, knee/weight issues. In this modern age, finding a footballer who can use his brain to get the ball is somewhat rare.
We've found out how valuable Murf is now that he hasn't been there for an extended period.
Murph was a key factor in our winning run because of his leadership, his run and particularly his disposal skills.
Anyone have any inside knowledge on Byrne?
No - but Bolton looked pretty concerned, and the talk around the traps is ACL. Obviously, we hope it doesn't come to that.
Coaches prefer two ruckmen and Jones/Gorringe were in while Phillips was injured. I think we just have to choose, Kreuzer or Sauce, because two ruckmen doesn't seem to be working.
The current two ruckmen don't work because neither has much to offer as a forward. Despite the often expressed hopes about Kreuzer, he has never looked like a forward. He is our most effective ruckman ATM but does not look likely to be a dominant ruckman in the future.
This is where the coaches are in a difficult position; they need to give Phillips game time because they think he will be our best option going forward but Kreuzer offers the better option ATM. I don't think it is surprising that Kreuzer did the bulk of the ruckwork during our better games but has been much less effective when sharing the role. It is a catch 22 but, as we are not ready to achieve great heights this year, the coaching panel has probably made the right decision for the future.
I was pleasantly surprised by young Silvagni's game last night. Maybe it comes down to expectations. I'd heard all throughout his junior footy that he was nothing special - way behind other kids of his age and that if he made it to Carlton it would only be on the strength of his old man's reputation. Bear in mind he's very unlikely to be as good as SOS - the guy was Full Back of the Century for Pete's sake.
Not even the Son of God lived up to his reputation - sent by His Father to save the world? How's that workin' out for ya'?
When SOJ grubbed his first kick in the warm up I thought that the occasion might have unnerved him, but that wasn't the case. It was one of the most assured first games I have seen.
He probably should have kicked the goal in the first quarter and dishing off to Gibbs in the last was a poor decision but entirely understandable for a first gamer. I expect that similar situations in future games will result in goals.
My concerns about SOJ's fitness were unfounded but he wouldn't have been selected if he wasn't able to run out the game. He covered the ground well and at times it seemed that we had two Simmos in defence.
It seemed like déjà vu at times as SOJ's running style is so like SOS's. I found myself waiting for him to turn around so I could check that it was 2 on his back.
It was a promising debut and I'm glad I made the effort to watch the game live. Apart from SOJ's debut, it was a forgettable game and I don't really feel like saying much about it.
We desperately need a couple of quality mids and a key forward though ::)
Yes, I thought Jack made a positive start for us and did not flinch when he went for the high balls. Pity his debut had to be against the backdrop of such a dismal team effort.
Casboult certainly was right up there with Everitt for crapness and surely will be lucky to survive unless he turns it around very soon?
Casboult has been down for a couple of games, he has come off an injury, but has generally been pretty good for a couple of years now.
Everitt, on the other hand, I was happy to keep in the side while he was kicking goals, given the way he approaches the game, but now he's not kicking them then he can't keep his place as he offers nothing else.
The current two ruckmen don't work because neither has much to offer as a forward. Despite the often expressed hopes about Kreuzer, he has never looked like a forward. He is our most effective ruckman ATM but does not look likely to be a dominant ruckman in the future.
This is where the coaches are in a difficult position; they need to give Phillips game time because they think he will be our best option going forward but Kreuzer offers the better option ATM. I don't think it is surprising that Kreuzer did the bulk of the ruckwork during our better games but has been much less effective when sharing the role. It is a catch 22 but, as we are not ready to achieve great heights this year, the coaching panel has probably made the right decision for the future.
We have always been best when we've had one ruckman plus Casboult. Been that way for years as none of our rucks offer anything when not on the ball. Allows us alot more flexibility when selecting a side.
We're at our best when Jones and Casboult both play, undefeated in fact.
Everitt was tagging sidebottom so he was never going to have a big game offensively.
Been calling for everitts head for a while now. Even when he was kicking goals, a lot of them came in junk time or were a result of something up the field. He rarely has taken any contested marks and converted of late, hasn't been winning many contests if any.
Plenty of people suggesting we need mids in the next draft and outside pace. Well, while that might be true, i reckon there is an obvious hole (or 4) that is being overlooked.
Here is a hint.
15 - Everitt
14 - Gibbs
14 - Wright
13 - Lamb
11 - Casboult
9 - Walker
8 - Jones
7 - Armfield
7 - Murphy
6 - Thomas
That is our top 10 goal kickers for 2016 after 14 games!
Of our 23 goal kickers this season, only 2 of them average more than a goal a game.
Everitt 1.5 - has only kicked 2 from his last 4 games and should be dropped and
Jones 1.6 - who was dropped for giving us nothing as well.
We are SCREAMING out for a key forward who has a better than 50% chance of scoring a goal from 20m out directly in front (Casboult!)
We're at our best when Jones and Casboult both play, undefeated in fact.
Agree... the role Jones and then Gorringe played worked and would help Levi... he played his better games getting a bit of help from Jones.
But we have ended up with Levi as a lone key forward.
Kruddler, the forward line is going to include Curnow, Silvagni and hopefully McKay.
We have to stick games into these guys.
Kruddler, the forward line is going to include Curnow, Silvagni and hopefully McKay.
We have to stick games into these guys.
The forward line was going to include Hartlett and Edwards.
The forward line was going to include Mitchell and Watson
The forward line currently has nothing. Until we get something, we'd be best to assume it is still nothing rather than waste time waiting for players to get delisted before trying again.
Last night Casboult was playing more CHF where I thought he would be better but he butchered his opportunities there too.
So with Casboult out of the forward 50 that left White and Silvagni as our key forwards and that's why we couldn't kick a goal for over a half of football.
Last night Casboult was playing more CHF where I thought he would be better but he butchered his opportunities there too.
So with Casboult out of the forward 50 that left White and Silvagni as our key forwards and that's why we couldn't kick a goal for over a half of football.
Casboult did indeed play mostly at CHF but he seemed devoid of any confidence or clue. We spoke at the game of the need for him to be prowling much nearer the goal. He then indeed did take a very good mark close in but then proceeded to miss the soda of a kick from about 30 meters out, pretty much directly in front.
Casboult did indeed play mostly at CHF but he seemed devoid of any confidence or clue. We spoke at the game of the need for him to be prowling much nearer the goal. He then indeed did take a very good mark close in but then proceeded to miss the soda of a kick from about 30 meters out, pretty much directly in front.
Casboult should be played in the goal square, as a roving marking target, and a bit of ruck work. Nothing else. The main forwards should be any combination of : White, Walks, Wright, jack, Everitt, Jones, Jaksch, with cameos by any of our bigger players just to mix it up : Rowe, Krooz, Phillips - heck even give Korchek a run.
If you must play Cas at CHF, get guys like 2E running past so he doesn't have to take a shot.
EDIT : assuming the rookie rules allow Korchek to play.
The forward line was going to include Hartlett and Edwards.
The forward line was going to include Mitchell and Watson
The forward line currently has nothing. Until we get something, we'd be best to assume it is still nothing rather than waste time waiting for players to get delisted before trying again.
Good point, putting our hopes into untried players will again leave egg on our faces. Need a seasoned forward to anchor the forward line. , still a reason we should have kept Waite
I was really disappointed in last night. We showed a lot of fight and no small amount of courage, but they were up and close to their best (that is frightening as they were pretty ordinary), while we were a long way off it. We had only 1 player, Silvagni, who could not honestly say he has played better this season. Our best handful were only shadows of what they have been in other games. And we had a lot of guys who didn't fire a shot.
Everitt and Walker were particularly ordinary and would have to be lucky to hold their spots.
Sumner couldn't get the ball much, but his chasing and tackling were one of our highlights.
Casboult was so far down he must have seen the earth's core in close-up. He dropped marks and mucked up kicks and just didn't deliver a target.
Weitering played his poorest game and looked like he needed 'managing'. He needs to get his confidence back in the VFL (if only we could afford to do it). Maybe a week off altogether. The surety and kicking were not there and the decision making was far below his best.
Rowe and Plowman did good negative jobs, kept their men really quiet, but couldn't get a kick themselves. Particularly Rowe, who kept Cox to 2 possessions for the night.
[1] Our forward structures just weren't there. We did not give guys a target and nobody wanted the responsivity of kicking the goals.
[2] We mucked around terribly in the midfield and across half back as nobody had confidence to kick the ball quickly. as a result we moved the ball so slowly and our forwards had no chance, and, in trying NOT to make mistakes, we constantly made mistakes and turned the ball over.
[3] Our midfield is getting smashed. Our opponents are awake to Gibbs and Cripps when they come 3rd man up, they haven't given Cripps any room at all and he hasn't been able to create any (that is one of the reason why I think he is not 100% fit). We are very predictable and need to change things up or get smashed.
Can someone tell me what Jones has done wrong?
Our forward six functions better with him in it than without him and he is good for one goal a game.
Since he has been dropped we haven't really fired and Casboult has found it much harder to function.
Sure he isn't great, but I thought he was doing enough to keep his spot and that he was stiff to be dropped.
Has been reasonably good with minimal service in the twos too.
Agree...Jones at least means a KP player from the other team has to mind him and you dont get everyone hanging off Casboult...the latter has been ordinary since Jones was dropped too.
Simon White wont make a forward and would have been better off down back helping out as we looked a bit undersized at times....
Collingwood only won by two goals and I think we had slightly more forward entries so Jones may have made a difference, even if Jones has contested with Reid he might have created some opportunities for our smalls..I thought Reid really towelled us up down back and was in the Pies best players.
Young Silvagni has footy smarts and skills.
How he's managed is pretty important because he's a bottom aged draftee and he's still very much a kid.
http://www.carltonfc.com.au/video/2016-07-03/postmatch-jack-silvagni
Look after him and he'll be a gem ;)
Agree...Jones at least means a KP player from the other team has to mind him and you dont get everyone hanging off Casboult...the latter has been ordinary since Jones was dropped too.
Simon White wont make a forward and would have been better off down back helping out as we looked a bit undersized at times....
Collingwood only won by two goals and I think we had slightly more forward entries so Jones may have made a difference, even if Jones has contested with Reid he might have created some opportunities for our smalls..I thought Reid really towelled us up down back and was in the Pies best players.
Yet, having watched live and the replay, I'd have to say White was our most effective forward. If we'd been kicking half decently, or if Everitt had actually applied some physical contact, White could have easily had three or four more shots at goal within F50.
Casboult should be played in the goal square, as a roving marking target, and a bit of ruck work. Nothing else. The main forwards should be any combination of : White, Walks, Wright, jack, Everitt, Jones, Jaksch, with cameos by any of our bigger players just to mix it up : Rowe, Krooz, Phillips - heck even give Korchek a run.
If you must play Cas at CHF, get guys like 2E running past so he doesn't have to take a shot.
EDIT : assuming the rookie rules allow Korchek to play.
Other way. We need a 2nd key forward so Casboult can get more time up and around the ground where he plays his best footy. When he's the only key forward he cops the opposition defence. He plays his best football by far when he's able to move around and get his hands on the ball. It's why is so much a better player all round when he gets a run on the ball. He's not that good a player that he can handle the heat of multiple opposition attention.
One ruckman, supported by Casboult with Jaksch or Jones as the other key forward. We ALWAYS go alot better that way. First Collingwood game was an example of that and been the ame for a long time.
Yet, having watched live and the replay, I'd have to say White was our most effective forward. If we'd been kicking half decently, or if Everitt had actually applied some physical contact, White could have easily had three or four more shots at goal within F50.
I thought Reid and Goldsack took too many easy marks and I wasnt sure of White's role...goalkicker or defensive forward........really missing Armfield IMO who creates forward pressure and we lacked that type of desperado to help keep the ball in the Forward 50.
I thought Reid and Goldsack took too many easy marks and I wasnt sure of White's role...goalkicker or defensive forward........really missing Armfield IMO who creates forward pressure and we lacked that type of desperado to help keep the ball in the Forward 50.
I think the marking targets were made look ordinary by the inability of the small forwards and Mids to pull the trigger on a shot for goal. We have a bunch of blokes who do not want the responsibility of kicking goals. I was shocked to see the likes of Lamb and Wright looking to dish off when they had time and space to snap the ball from within 25m. At AFL level time and space inside 25m is just two or three steps, if you need more time than that you need another career! ;)
Yet, having watched live and the replay, I'd have to say White was our most effective forward. If we'd been kicking half decently, or if Everitt had actually applied some physical contact, White could have easily had three or four more shots at goal within F50.
That was my observation as well. Bottom line is that we were two forwards down. Had Waite and Betts played instead of Casboult and Everitt we'd have outscored Rottingwood. We kept Rottingwood to a losing score but couldn't hit the scoreboard ourselves due to, simply, not having good enough forwards.
I think the marking targets were made look ordinary by the inability of the small forwards and Mids to pull the trigger on a shot for goal. We have a bunch of blokes who do not want the responsibility of kicking goals. I was shocked to see the likes of Lamb and Wright looking to dish off when they had time and space to snap the ball from within 25m. At AFL level time and space inside 25m is just two or three steps, if you need more time than that you need another career! ;)
Agree LP. We are gun shy and we need to be a lot more urgent, but at the same time remain composed, in front of goal. Looks like we have a bit of a confidence crisis to me. It's a fine line between confident to have a shot and blazing away in a trigger happy way I guess.
One thing that pleased me last night was the work that our players, particularly Ed Curnow, put into Levi Greenwood. In the past we have just let Murphy, Gibbs or Cripps deal with a hard tag but there seemed to be a definite plan to make things difficult for Greenwood. Twenty-two possessions and two goals must be one of the best performances by Gibbs when tagged and a lot of that is down to Curnow.
I think the marking targets were made look ordinary by the inability of the small forwards and Mids to pull the trigger on a shot for goal. We have a bunch of blokes who do not want the responsibility of kicking goals. I was shocked to see the likes of Lamb and Wright looking to dish off when they had time and space to snap the ball from within 25m. At AFL level time and space inside 25m is just two or three steps, if you need more time than that you need another career! ;)
Our marking forwards were made to look ordinary because our mids could not kick to advantage. If a forward had front position, they'd kick it on top of his head.
If a forward was leading to his left, they'd kick to his right.
The ball was almost never kicked out in front to our advantage inside 50. Can't blame the wind as there was none. Just simple skill errors.
One thing that pleased me last night was the work that our players, particularly Ed Curnow, put into Levi Greenwood. In the past we have just let Murphy, Gibbs or Cripps deal with a hard tag but there seemed to be a definite plan to make things difficult for Greenwood. Twenty-two possessions and two goals must be one of the best performances by Gibbs when tagged and a lot of that is down to Curnow.
I thought Curnow did the job on Treloar but Pendlebury destroyed us ...Greenwood(23 possies/9tackles/one goal) did the job on Gibbs IMO and while Gibbs was reasonable I thought Greenwood intimidated him and reduced his effectiveness including a forearm to the face which Gibbs didnt respond hard enough to IMO.
I think Gibbs has been good but both he and Murphy need some help in the rough stuff dept and I reckon someone like Robbo out there last night might have made life easier for Gibbs.
I thought Curnow did the job on Treloar but Pendlebury destroyed us ...Greenwood did the job on Gibbs IMO and while Gibbs was reasonable I thought Greenwood intimidated him and reduced his effectiveness including a forearm to the face which Gibbs didnt respond hard enough to IMO.
I think Gibbs has been good but both he and Murphy need some help in the rough stuff dept and I reckon someone like Robbo out there last night might have made life easier for Gibbs.
Bingo! Couldn't agree more, particularly re Robbo.
Everitt did a reasonable job on Sidebottom but it seems most here have idea of what his role was and expected him to kick goals.
Everitt did a reasonable job on Sidebottom but it seems most here have idea of what his role was and expected him to kick goals.
I think we reasonably expect him to be like his 21 team mates re intensity, vigor and defensive ruthlessness. It aint personal. Some people just aint designed that way... there's a reason the Dishlickers and Fluffy Ducks didn't want him and now we can see why.
Everitt did a reasonable job on Sidebottom but it seems most here have idea of what his role was and expected him to kick goals.
You cannot just defend, in AFL you have to create.
He had opportunity to influence contests and help team-mates and refused multiple times. On at least two of those occasions he was nowhere near Sidebottom and had run forward to make a 2 on 1 in our favour then decided to run off the contest like a rover. This bloke is about 195cm, we don't need him pretending to be Jeff Garlett.
But if he wants to be a Garlett type, he better watch Garlett more closely because Garlett is harder at the contest! :o
Everitt did a reasonable job on Sidebottom but it seems most here have idea of what his role was and expected him to kick goals.
Everitt 10 possies vs Sidebottom 22...didnt expect him to kick goals but for us to win he has to get more ball...Greenwood had 23 tagging Gibbs(22).. Curnow and Treloar 23 each....
I thought Curnow did the job on Treloar but Pendlebury destroyed us ...Greenwood(23 possies/9tackles/one goal) did the job on Gibbs IMO and while Gibbs was reasonable I thought Greenwood intimidated him and reduced his effectiveness including a forearm to the face which Gibbs didnt respond hard enough to IMO.
I think Gibbs has been good but both he and Murphy need some help in the rough stuff dept and I reckon someone like Robbo out there last night might have made life easier for Gibbs.
We desperately need a couple of quality mids to step up when Gibbs, Murphy or Cripps is tagged. Someone like Gowers to hit the pack hard and take out the tagger wouldn't go astray either.
I use binoculars when the action is a bit far off and I saw Gibbs land a couple of good ones on Greenwood. Hopefully they were subtle enough to avoid MRP scrutiny.
We desperately need a couple of quality mids to step up when Gibbs, Murphy or Cripps is tagged. Someone like Gowers to hit the pack hard and take out the tagger wouldn't go astray either.
I use binoculars when the action is a bit far off and I saw Gibbs land a couple of good ones on Greenwood. Hopefully they were subtle enough to avoid MRP scrutiny.
We got the double whammy with Cripps...seemed to be a rotation tag on him at the clearances and then Pendlebury slipped away wide and became Cripps man...reckon the coach has to do a bit more to help Cripps in that situation as he doesnt have the mobility to keep up with players in the open.
Gibbs didnt hit him hard enough....need to get Danny Green down to the club for a few sessions... ;)
Everitt did a reasonable job on Sidebottom but it seems most here have idea of what his role was and expected him to kick goals.
Everitt had 10 posessions @60% DE and 4 clangers....which means he turned it over 40% of the time he had it.
Sidebottom had it 21 times @ 81%. He was 5th in posessions from the pies.
If a reasonable job is getting half the possessions and less than half the effort, then good job for everitt. Personally, i don't see it.
I don't expect him to kick goals, i hope he does, but don't expect it.
What i do expect is that he acts like a senior footballer who wants to play senior football. He avoids physical contact more than anyone on our list, including an 18yo first gamer taken 50+ picks later than him in the draft. He turned the ball over more than anyone on a night where everyone was turning it over.
I would've preferred to see Sidebottom be left alone all night and pick someone who actually makes a contribution of his own over what Everitt offered us last night.....and for the majority of the season really.
You might be happy with his game, but i reckon you'd be the only one.
He held sidebottom early and was obviously released later. Did anyone watch the game or do they just look at stats?
We got the double whammy with Cripps...seemed to be a rotation tag on him at the clearances and then Pendlebury slipped away wide and became Cripps man...reckon the coach has to do a bit more to help Cripps in that situation as he doesnt have the mobility to keep up with players in the open.
Gibbs didnt hit him hard enough....need to get Danny Green down to the club for a few sessions... ;)
It must be hard to keep your cool and not just let one rip - like Yarran did.
Bolton had a poor night at the office and to be frank has had a poor month. If we can praise him for when we play well then he has to accept blame for our poor performances. Last night was one of the worst games I've ever seen. We were down by 3 goals in the last but it felt like 10 and everyone knew we couldn't come back.
He held sidebottom early and was obviously released later. Did anyone watch the game or do they just look at stats?
Yeah, everitt kicked it directly to the opposition on at least 2 occasions when we were trying to muster up a forward thrust.
He did more for the opposition than he did for us last night.
He held sidebottom early and was obviously released later. Did anyone watch the game or do they just look at stats?
Everitt spent much of the first half on the wing/midfield and, at times, running with Sidebottom (we were playing a 5 man forward line). In the second half, Everitt spent more time in the forward line but still rotated through the midfield (or stood still).
There seemed to be a bit of confusion about who was doing what with Everitt, Kerridge and others pointing to where someone else should be.
Bolton had a poor night at the office and to be frank has had a poor month. If we can praise him for when we play well then he has to accept blame for our poor performances. Last night was one of the worst games I've ever seen. We were down by 3 goals in the last but it felt like 10 and everyone knew we couldn't come back.
Some folk near me started to leave and one bloke shouted, "Sit down, we can still win this!"
Wishful thinking perhaps but he got a few laughs and no-one else left :)
DJC obviously watched the game.
I never said Everitt was great just not as terrible as everyone else was making out considering he was tagging( a different role) for most of the night.
My wife texted me 36 seconds left and I was on the Monash 10 min later.
DJC obviously watched the game.
I never said Everitt was great just not as terrible as everyone else was making out considering he was tagging( a different role) for most of the night.
I don't care if his role was waterboy, he was a liability out there and doesn't deserve to run out next week based on that game.
Half the team were liabilities.
Half the team were liabilities.
Yes, but he was the one out front with a big 'L' on his chest with cape flowing behind him.
Bolton had a poor night at the office and to be frank has had a poor month. If we can praise him for when we play well then he has to accept blame for our poor performances. Last night was one of the worst games I've ever seen. We were down by 3 goals in the last but it felt like 10 and everyone knew we couldn't come back.
I think that's fair enough.
Everitt has been putrid for the last month.
So frustrating to watch.
Kerridge looked fatigued to me.
Half the team were liabilities.
Yes, just a dirty night all round, with a few exceptions.
Don't know what happened to the team that played from R5 to R11.
Everitt has been putrid for the last month.
So frustrating to watch.
Kerridge looked fatigued to me.
Kerridge is carrying more workload with us that he would have dreamed possible when he was with the Crows.
Bolton had a poor night at the office and to be frank has had a poor month. If we can praise him for when we play well then he has to accept blame for our poor performances. Last night was one of the worst games I've ever seen. We were down by 3 goals in the last but it felt like 10 and everyone knew we couldn't come back.
This ^^^
It was like watching the Essendon game all over again......absolute carbon copy - except for the result.......terrible game between two terrible teams on the night.
^^^
I am feeling the same way myself at the moment. Collingwood at the moment are no real force in the AFL. A must win game we couldn't lose.
Bolton had a poor night at the office and to be frank has had a poor month. If we can praise him for when we play well then he has to accept blame for our poor performances. Last night was one of the worst games I've ever seen. We were down by 3 goals in the last but it felt like 10 and everyone knew we couldn't come back.
Have to agree. We never looked like coming back and it felt like we had lost by a much bigger margin. The players looked confused again!
It was a poor standard game, but we only lost by two goals, after missing at least 3 or 4 relatively simple shots at goal, and they got at least 2 goals from seriously crap free kicks, so in my mind could easily have gone either way. Silvagni showed enough to make me very happy in his first game, he's a keeper. Shattered for Byrne, just finding his feet and showing great promise, he's a guy we need to get every game into that we can, could be an A grader if he gets a decent run at it
Our forwards are on the nose at he moment, well for some time.
Said it after last game, and I'll say it again... They need to work harder to make space and leads. The only one capable of doing it last night was young Jack in his first game!
It's easy to blame the mids for bombing it in, and Ive probably done that in the past, but they aren't exactly being overwhelmed by options and or forwards demanding the ball on a lead.
I'd like to think Casboult is going to get better at some point, but every time he looks like taking a step forward, he goes 2 or 3 steps back. A couple of folks around here seem to defend him pretty constantly, but I can't see the attraction right now. He averages less than a goal a game, both for the year and career, and I can't see that improving anytime soon.
The last couple of games have just reinforced what I knew at the start of the season. . . . . We are nowhere near a finals side.
We should beat Essendon, but that will probably be our only win for the rest of the season.
That doesn't worry me. Gives us better draft picks.
The main thing is that the standards are being set by BB and the coaching staff and as long as that is kept up and SOS does his job, we will get there.
Maybe 2018 - 2019 ?????
The form of several players, Everitt, Casboult, Kreuzer, Kerridge, Cripps, Weitering and Thomas is being affected by our lack of depth. Too few are doing all the heavy lifting, I think the apparent lack of options for the coaches box reflects this, we've too few healthy cattle left.
The fact that Simmo, Curnow and Docherty are still on top of the ground is both a marvel and miracle.
Plowman has been good as well in the last few weeks, and did you notice him giving team-mates some curry for failing to run defensively. Here is someone who we can look forward to being part of the leadership group.
Phillips will be better for the run, he'll need to be against the Crows who are loaded with 200cm talent.
Sad news for Byrnes, who had probably played his best game for the season.
Weitering needs a rest, he's just a kid playing like a man, I want him for the next decade not just the next few weeks.
The form of several players, Everitt, Casboult, Kreuzer, Kerridge, Cripps, Weitering and Thomas is being affected by our lack of depth. To few are doing all the heavy lifting, I think the apparent lack of options for he coaches box reflects this, we've too few healthy cattle left.
The fact that Simmo, Curnow and Docherty are still on top of the ground is both a marvel and miracle.
Plowman has been good as well in the last few weeks, and did you notice him giving team-mates some curry for failing to run defensively. Here is someone who we can look forward to being part of the leadership group.
Phillips will be better for the run, he'll need to be against the Crows who are loaded with 200cm talent.
Sad news for Byrnes, who had probably played his best game for the season.
Weitering needs a rest, he's just a kid playing like a man, I want him for the next decade not just the next few weeks.
What he said x 2
Sad part is wanting to rest players great in theory , but then reality checks in, who are you going to play?4 Goals for the NB's this weekend , not really any pushing for forward spots . Time to test the metal of a couple & do the deep end thing Gowers, Jasch, Buckley , basically let them know its not or never. Several must realise by now there careers here are only months away from being over
What he said x 2
Sad part is wanting to rest players great in theory , but then reality checks in, who are you going to play?4 Goals for the NB's this weekend , not really any pushing for forward spots . Time to test the metal of a couple & do the deep end thing Gowers, Jasch, Buckley , basically let them know its not or never. Several must realise by now there careers here are only months away from being over
Well they've got to get Gowers off the rookie list quick smart, his form and attitude suggest he can fill a role in replacing the loss of Byrne.
IMHO, Form can be fickle.
Part of helping players get through a flat patch, is to take the pressure out of the situation and help them through it using an open and honest method of feedback.
What are they doing well?
What could they be doing better?
What can we do to try and get that functioning more appropriately?
Is it a conditioning thing? If so, I think that will be relatively evident. Giving Weiters a spell might be helpful, but not when there is no one putting his hand up.
At the end of the day the entire team is looking a bit flat. Let's hope that they are flogging them on the training track in an effort to get us primed for next year.
At the end of the day the entire team is looking a bit flat. Let's hope that they are flogging them on the training track in an effort to get us primed for next year.
I'd suggest there is more to it than that, it looks to me like some of the players have slipped into their old ways after a brief honeymoon period.
If that is true, if there is a bit of growing dissension, I'd be getting the kids out of that environment quick smart even if it means they have a rest and the old legs have to pick up the slack for the rest of 2016. Let's not poison the well just to keep consuming some dregs.
Why do we continue to get smashed around the stoppages?
Nothing ever changes.....that used to be one of our strengths?
Why do we continue to get smashed around the stoppages?
Nothing ever changes.....that used to be one of our strengths?
stats from the game :
well in this instance i stand corrected - on paper, at least!
Stats are useful if people understand their limits, and if they apply the information correctly.
In this case, it shows we don't have an issue getting first use. we don't have an issue getting our hands on the ball. It's what happens after that causes the problems.
Bolton referenced CHF a couple of times in his presser - as we all know, our forward line and delivery into the forward line are the major problems.
Stats are useful if people understand their limits, and if they apply the information correctly.
In this case, it shows we don't have an issue getting first use. we don't have an issue getting our hands on the ball. It's what happens after that causes the problems.
Bolton referenced CHF a couple of times in his presser - as we all know, our forward line and delivery into the forward line are the major problems.
Stats are only useful with combined with other stats to get a total picture.
Further you have toi know what a "Clearance" is defined as before you can understand the stats;
For example if Kreuzer or Phillips tap the ball clear of the pack is that a clearance?
What if our ruck taps the ball to the advantage of Gibbs or Cripps and they handball it to Sidebottom, who gets the clearance stat?
It's fraught with danger to rely on these stats too much, because the line of clearance is subjective.
On Saturday night we were clearly beaten in the midfield, possibly our worst effort in several weeks, just go back and watch the number of clear taps from Kreuzer or Phillips that went straight to Collingwood players.
From what I can see a clearance is credited to the player who has the first disposal in the chain that clears the stoppage area to either teams advantage.
Question then is whether a tap or hitout from the ruck contest is counted as a disposal or whether a disposal is determined strictly as a legal disposal by hand or foot?
Further you have toi know what a "Clearance" is defined as before you can understand the stats;
For example if Kreuzer or Phillips tap the ball clear of the pack is that a clearance?
What if our ruck taps the ball to the advantage of Gibbs or Cripps and they handball it to Sidebottom, who gets the clearance stat?
It's fraught with danger to rely on these stats too much, because the line of clearance is subjective.
On Saturday night we were clearly beaten in the midfield, possibly our worst effort in several weeks, just go back and watch the number of clear taps from Kreuzer or Phillips that went straight to Collingwood players.
Yes, I would agree - I also read somewhere that the different data collection agencies may define it differently.
In your first example (Krooz / Phillips) IMO this should count as a clearance.
In the ruck to Cripps to Sidebttom example, IMO this should count as a clearance to us, then a turnover, but i have no idea if this is the way they are interpreted.
As I stated earlier, Bolts made 2 references to CHF, making it clear to me that this is where he feels it really unravels. He made mention of the positive differential in the clearance, CP, and I50 stats, so at a guess they may not be so much of an issue for him.
From what I can see a clearance is credited to the player who has the first disposal in the chain that clears the stoppage area to either teams advantage.
Question then is whether a tap or hitout from the ruck contest is counted as a disposal or whether a disposal is determined strictly as a legal disposal by hand or foot?
It has to be kick or handpass that clears the stoppage area - even if it goes directly to an opponent. I guess that would be picked up in the turnovers/disposal efficiency stats.
Stats are useful if people understand their limits, and if they apply the information correctly.
In this case, it shows we don't have an issue getting first use. we don't have an issue getting our hands on the ball. It's what happens after that causes the problems.
Bolton referenced CHF a couple of times in his presser - as we all know, our forward line and delivery into the forward line are the major problems.
Granted Casboult, Everitt et all are playing like gooses but our midfield/ruck is a far larger problem imo. Fix that, the forwards will 'improve' immeasurably.
Simple fact is (sadly) - and noting he's still relatively young - but Kreuzer simply doesn't cut it against the better ruckman in the league these days.
Cripps is either injured or missing in action and Gibbs gets tagged stupid every game now. Curnow in a lull and Sam having a quiet patch too.
Really need to acquire a top notch inside mid asap.
And our midfield goes missing way too often, especially defensively.
It has to be kick or handpass that clears the stoppage area - even if it goes directly to an opponent. I guess that would be picked up in the turnovers/disposal efficiency stats.
Thanks DJC. Do you know what is the definition of the stoppage area? I can't find one anywhere.
Granted Casboult, Everitt et all are playing like gooses but our midfield/ruck is a far larger problem imo. Fix that, the forwards will 'improve' immeasurably.
Simple fact is (sadly) - and noting he's still relatively young - but Kreuzer simply doesn't cut it against the better ruckman in the league these days.
Cripps is either injured or missing in action and Gibbs gets tagged stupid every game now. Curnow in a lull and Sam having a quiet patch too.
Really need to acquire a top notch inside mid asap.
And our midfield goes missing way too often, especially defensively.
I agree fly - I'm one of the few on here who prioritize 2 elite mids above all else. 2 Dangerfield / Selwood types, with a decent supporting cast - terribly important IMO.
Thanks DJC. Do you know what is the definition of the stoppage area? I can't find one anywhere.
Outside of the area you could throw a blanket over?
No, I don't know Cookie. Perhaps Champion Data could provide definitions.
Outside of the area you could throw a blanket over?
No, I don't know Cookie. Perhaps Champion Data could provide definitions.
That 's the one to use I think - nothing better out there as far as I can see!
I agree fly - I'm one of the few on here who prioritize 2 elite mids above all else. 2 Dangerfield / Selwood types, with a decent supporting cast - terribly important IMO.
Sure, two would be great but perhaps one mature player and one draftee (high pick)?
Sure, two would be great but perhaps one mature player and one draftee (high pick)?
Elite talent whichever way we can get it is fine with me.
Weitering needs a rest, he's just a kid playing like a man, I want him for the next decade not just the next few weeks.
The main problem with Weitering is that the absence (is he injured or has he retired?) of Jamo. I know he is way past his best but he is still an effective defender and when Jamo was playing, Weitering was able to zone off from lesser forwards and play to his marking strength - in recent weeks, he has had to match up on stronger opponents.
The main problem with Weitering is that the absence (is he injured or has he retired?) of Jamo. I know he is way past his best but he is still an effective defender and when Jamo was playing, Weitering was able to zone off from lesser forwards and play to his marking strength - in recent weeks, he has had to match up on stronger opponents.
Heard at the game that Jamo has been quite crook (no details) so whether he'll be available again this year I just don't know.
Heard at the game that Jamo has been quite crook (no details) so whether he'll be available again this year I just don't know.
Why all the secrecy from the Club ? What does he have that's so horrible it can't be revealed ?
One person who i meant to give kudos to previously, and it appears most people have overlooked, is Jed Lamb.
20 touches @80%, a goal and 3 tackles, one of which caught my eye at the time.
He has been a big highlight for us this year. He cost us next to nothing and continues to be a contributer when many, myself included, were wondering if he'd even get out on the park.
So yeah, throwing some love out there for 'Roast'
Why all the secrecy from the Club ? What does he have that's so horrible it can't be revealed ?
I heard from someone, can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, that he may have a similar injury to Armfield. A 'lower abdomen' issue. Not sure how accurate that is though.
I reckon he might have retired, but isn't officially announcing it just in case we get desperate with injuries to our kids and we need a body out there.
I heard from someone, can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, that he may have a similar injury to Armfield. A 'lower abdomen' issue. Not sure how accurate that is though.
I reckon he might have retired, but isn't officially announcing it just in case we get desperate with injuries to our kids and we need a body out there.
Hmmm. Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Your theory about retiring but keeping him up our sleeve as a spare seems very plausible to me.
The main problem with Weitering is that the absence (is he injured or has he retired?) of Jamo. I know he is way past his best but he is still an effective defender and when Jamo was playing, Weitering was able to zone off from lesser forwards and play to his marking strength - in recent weeks, he has had to match up on stronger opponents.
Funny you really here him mentioned any where as an injured player by the media, he sank with out a ripple. He has been the for stone of our defence for best part of a decade, and hardly a murmur re him not being about. Pressure on Weitering yes, but also Rowe who has coped plenty this year as well.
One person who i meant to give kudos to previously, and it appears most people have overlooked, is Jed Lamb.
20 touches @80%, a goal and 3 tackles, one of which caught my eye at the time.
He has been a big highlight for us this year. He cost us next to nothing and continues to be a contributer when many, myself included, were wondering if he'd even get out on the park.
So yeah, throwing some love out there for 'Roast'
Agree. Has been one of my favourites to watch all year. And I am always confident when he lines up for goal.
I heard from someone, can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, that he may have a similar injury to Armfield. A 'lower abdomen' issue. Not sure how accurate that is though.
I reckon he might have retired, but isn't officially announcing it just in case we get desperate with injuries to our kids and we need a body out there.
That was pure speculation on my part Kruddler. He seemed to be in a spot of bother after Charlie Dixon kicked him in the nurries.
Perhaps he has asked the club not to disclose whatever issue it is that is stopping him playing.
Heard from reliable source Jamo has some sort of mental issue that is being kept hush hush.. Girlfriend related apparently..