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Topic: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide (Read 17662 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #105 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
What is my view?

If Cottrell is fit he takes his spot back.
Obviously.

But plenty of others could do the same role, with a better stat line.

Everyone keeps making excuses for Fantasia.
Perhaps he just isn't what people think he is.

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #106 –
Sometimes personal stats isn't what is best for the team.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #107 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Sometimes personal stats isn't what is best for the team.

Tackles, pressure acts, goal assists.....pick a stat....any stat. What IS his value to the team?

If his value is so high, why don't we recruit 10 more players who don't kick goals, or get disposals, or lay tackles......

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #108 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
He is playing Cottrell's high half forward role at the moment.  He's not going to kick many goals or get huge numbers.
Possibly, but then there is the other 7 games Fantasia played when Cottrell was in the squad.

We don't know how he is coached, but he's having 1/2 the impact of Owies and Cottrell despite having 10 more years of experience.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #109 –
Quote from: LP – on
Possibly, but then there is the other 7 games Fantasia played when Cottrell was in the squad.

We don't know how he is coached, but he's having 1/2 the impact of Owies and Cottrell despite having 10 more years of experience.

We also don't know what his role specifically is. I suspect his biggest issue is inaccuracy. He's kicked 2.6 this season, which is low for such an excellent finisher. I'd hazard a guess that with such a long time out of the game, that it's taking a while for him to regain his touch. Just a little off IMO. I think his confidence will increase once he jags a few goals.

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #110 –
Fantasia missed a game against Geelong. Durdin, Owies and Carroll struggled didnt offer much pressure.

Not sure why supporters have to try to find problems when we're playing well and winning? Do you think if Orazio played in the centre he would only get 10 touches? Do you think Cripps would get 30 if he played half forward?

 
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!
 

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #111 –
When players are missing such as Motlop and Cottrell you have to find a replacement.
The replacement will rarely be as good for a few reasons.

1) They're behind the missing player in the pecking order to start with.
2) They won't exactly be able to perform the same role, due to ability and physical differences.
3) Players missing throw an extra burden not just on the replacement, but also on better players who won't necessarily provide the same support to the fill-in. Everyone's roles and responsibilities are impacted.

Fantasia is obviously the best we have for the task at hand at present (His assigned role)
When he's not, and others become available, he'll be out of the side.
We have little idea what tasks he's given each week.

It's fine looking for someone else but there would be reasons, probably good ones, why Fantasia is getting a game ahead of others.
There may be  couple of lads in the VFL who could be given a run but maybe for reasons of development they're being brought along at a more steady pace.
But as MBB said, we're going pretty well at present.
Keep it stable...and wait for the reinforcements ;)

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #112 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Fantasia missed a game against Geelong. Durdin, Owies and Carroll struggled didnt offer much pressure.

Not sure why supporters have to try to find problems when we're playing well and winning? Do you think if Orazio played in the centre he would only get 10 touches? Do you think Cripps would get 30 if he played half forward?

You can play well and still be carrying someone.....or multiple players.

You can be content with simply winning, or you can try and improve each and every week, quarter, contest.
An obviously week area at present is Fantasia. Its not wrong to point this out. As many have said, he is getting a game because plenty of others are injured.....and thats about the only valid reson for it. But don't take a 'win' as justification of him performing 'well'.

McDonalds is one of the biggest companies in the world.
It is not content. It is always trying to innovate, and stay ahead of the game, not simply keep doing 'more of the same' because its worked so far.
Their motto is "Green and growing". Its a reference to trees/plants...and similar to Brendan Bolton and his green shoots. While you are green and growing, you are constantly getting bigger, better and not slowing down.
This is what i want from my club. Not kicking back and becoming content and failing to innovate. That kind of logic is what set us back and head first into the dark ages we are still emerging from. Lets learn from our mistakes.

So yes, winning, now, still a hell of a lot of room for improvement. #1 on that list is #14.

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #113 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Do you think if Orazio played in the centre he would only get 10 touches?
Do you think we'd play him in the centre?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #114 –
This is a funny old game...(insert cliche*-"a game of inches" :D )

If Fantasia had kicked that 'almost' freak goal I doubt we'd be having this discussion, other than to say "We need to see more of that."

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #115 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Suffice to say, I have no idea what tasks / roles the coaches assign to Orazio, so I have no idea whether he's meeting his KPI's etc. I can only speculate based on what I see and hear, limited as that is. Even if he is Motlop's understudy, he could still be doing everything the coaches ask. I have no way of knowing, and I'd be wary of becoming like one of the characters in Plato's Allegory Of The Cave.
  We need more references to the ancients!  Personally I am afraid some of our players are convinced by Zeno of Elea's Achilles and the Tortoise and figure there is no point chasing since if you start from behind you can only ever get to where you opponent was not where they are.   

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #116 –
Quote from: Lods – on
This is a funny old game...(insert cliche*-"a game of inches" :D )

If Fantasia had kicked that 'almost' freak goal I doubt we'd be having this discussion, other than to say "We need to see more of that."

That’s the issue; for most of his career, that goes through but now he can’t buy a goal.

Cottrell’s comments earlier in the season about people not going to the footy to watch him perform his mundane yet important role made it clear that supporters often judge players without knowing what their performance criteria are.  However, Cotters usually adds a goal or a mercurial act to performing his role.

Raz has averaged over a goal a game over his career but has managed just two goals for us.  No matter how well he performs his role or how satisfied Vossy is with his work, supporters expect goals and Raz doesn’t really look like he’s going to kick one.


It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #117 –
More to the point on Orazio, I thought we were getting a first class small forward who might be cruelled by injuries/age to the point where he no longer has it even if as fit as he can be.  Instead we seem to have got something inherently better - he is doing the Cottrell marathon running role which I never thought he could do.  Problem is it does look like he has lost his pace and it is unlikely to come back.  He is no doubt a bit rusty and might be able to sharpen up with more time in the middle but the tendency to not go when he needs to - "softness" if you like - and the loss of pace are not likely to change.  The question then is whether with those limitations he is ahead of other options.  I don't think he is when everyone is up and running but he came at a low cost and was worth the gamble.  If contrary to my suspicions there is something temporary effecting his pace and he can get a decent turn of pace back then I think he has something none of our small forwards have - except perhaps Williams - in terms of forward crumbing craft.

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #118 –
People saying his pace won't come back or his performance won't lift, we've seen this before.  We got a busted up daisy Thomas for a few years.  His last couple of years better than his first couple.  Orazio has been here for not long.  He's doing some deep running and providing some leadership in the absence of other options.  When they come back he may not get a game in these roles. 

Or he might.  Don't judge people on what they aren't providing look at what they do.  He's rarely wasteful with his possessions.  He brings others into the game.  He does some deep running.

He is playing a peripheral role.  He's missed a lot of footy in recent seasons and he's making others earn a spot.  That's not bad for the team.  Some might have a subjective opinion on his worth relative to others but we aren't there 100% of the time.  Pretty sure he wont be on huge dollars either, so in the event we lose another small and he actually starts playing like the orazio of old we might get a win.  We don't know what mentality he provides to others too.
 There are intangibles in games.


At least he'd not missing half a season like another 5 or so on the list who should be playing his role and thats worth remembering when bagging him.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 12 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Port Adelaide

Reply #119 –
The worst you can say about Orazio is that he adds to our depth, and if players of his caliber are being kept out of the side by others, surely that bodes well for us as a legitimate top 4 / flag chance ?