Riddle me this. If his likelyhood of success follows the function y=1/x with x being time (that is, it gets closer to zero the further along you go ) then why does he have a spot on our list? This year has been by far his best year and its been so much better than previous years. Yes, i've watched him play this year. I have also watched him play years past, which is why i've seen such a big improvement in him this year, so what is the point of having him on a list, if he improves and STILL doesn't get a gig? Its not like we couldn't find another small forward to put on the list instead of him, as is our way. He was named as an emergency last week. If he is so far away, why do that??
Honestly, i couldn't give a rats behind if he is on our list next year or not. My issue is our MC fail to do anything remotely progressive and reward good form. Instead, we pick players who had good form, lost it, but now get a game because....why not. Chances are Lemmey will go goalless for the next 2 weeks, and then get a callup where he will have zero confidence, completely out of form and have zero chance of success....and THAT will be when i say i told you so.
We do the same thing all the time. Ben Campo.....good form....not picked....now can't be picked, but will most likely get a game at the end of the year when he's had no form to speak of. Last year it was Jaxon Binns. Was in form, lost it, then got a callup. Year on year its the same. This year, its Lemmey......and to a lesser extent Ben Campo, but at least he's in his first year.
then how come you missed it the first time?
Again, I'm happy for lemmey to play, I understand why he's not.
In fact the thing you mention about player selection might be the driving reason behind the coach losing his job.
That being said, I dont see Sam Mitchell dropping James Sicily at the moment, and he has been very so so since he got injured. Im sure theyve got a young kid in decent form at box hill that could take his spot.
When push comes to shove this is not lemmeys year to shine at Carlton and I dont have the answers, I just know he isnt showing afl level quality in a vfl competition. Neither was mcmahon. Both have played 1 game respectively.
There's been plenty of players drafted who never fired their shot at afl level.
I didn't miss it the first time, just didn't comment on your opinion of the comparison. Given mcmahon is 2 years older, I would expect that to be true. So no point discussing it.
Again, it's not isolated to lemmey, but he highlights a greater issue at th3 club. We fail to rest stars or even average players and play in form kids when the opportunity presents itself.
Last year it was when we were 2nd with no I injuries and daylight behind us. We ran them into the ground and injured them and had nothing to show for it.
This year its while we had plenty of underperfoming / injured stars with very little to play for.....now nothing to play for but are still not giving in form kids a crack.
Look at someone like Geelong. Always introducing inform talented kids and resting about players when the opportunity presents itself. Why are we so slow to follow this successful path?
I have no problem selecting Lemmey or not selecting him.
I have a problem with the outrage associated with why/why not.
Its clear as the day is long as to why, you just have to have seen him play footy. I told you that McMahon > Lemmey.
Thats the Greater than symbol in McMahon's direction.
I get the grade 3 mathematical symbols, thanks.
You've made your stance clear, i get it.
Riddle me this. If his likelyhood of success follows the function y=1/x with x being time (that is, it gets closer to zero the further along you go ) then why does he have a spot on our list? This year has been by far his best year and its been so much better than previous years. Yes, i've watched him play this year. I have also watched him play years past, which is why i've seen such a big improvement in him this year, so what is the point of having him on a list, if he improves and STILL doesn't get a gig? Its not like we couldn't find another small forward to put on the list instead of him, as is our way. He was named as an emergency last week. If he is so far away, why do that??
Honestly, i couldn't give a rats behind if he is on our list next year or not. My issue is our MC fail to do anything remotely progressive and reward good form. Instead, we pick players who had good form, lost it, but now get a game because....why not. Chances are Lemmey will go goalless for the next 2 weeks, and then get a callup where he will have zero confidence, completely out of form and have zero chance of success....and THAT will be when i say i told you so.
We do the same thing all the time. Ben Campo.....good form....not picked....now can't be picked, but will most likely get a game at the end of the year when he's had no form to speak of. Last year it was Jaxon Binns. Was in form, lost it, then got a callup. Year on year its the same. This year, its Lemmey......and to a lesser extent Ben Campo, but at least he's in his first year.
Why oh why wouldn't we be playing Harry Lemmey? Even if just to keep a key defender away from Charlie C. Surely the time to try Lemmey at AFL level is when Harry McKay is out injured? Is it time to arrange a members poll?
Ab
Watch Essendon last night. Remember that Liam McMahon>Harry Lemmey (based on performances at VFL level).
McMahon kicked two goals from 5 posessions and one Tackle and one mark.
One of the goals of which was a free that wasn't there.
Odds are, we will get that performance out of Lemmey, without the not there free kick.
....and that will be better than about 6 of the small forwards we are playing in the team who can't kick a goal.
Lemmey is not the type to come in and get 20 touches and kick 10. However, if he gets 5 touches and kicks 2 goals, i'd take that every week. 2 goals a week is 46 goals for the year.....who cares how many possessions he gets, as long as he hits the scoreboard. Somewhere along the line we forgot the main job of forwards is to kick goals. We are so fixated on team defence, that we tell our forwards that defending is #1 priority and we suffer as a result.
FYI, Curnow has only kicked 27 goals from 16 games.....which is less than 2 goals a game.
I was one of the most vocal against his recruitment but in hindsight I think it showed that the club had major concerns about the small forward group back then. I suspect Fantasia was brought in to mentor not play, and that he had to play is an indictment on the ground level forwards group. You don't need to be Nostradamus to suggest that Ty Gresham might be in navy blue next year. I agree that Fantasia contributes higher up the ground, our 'high half forwards' cupboard is bare.
So pay him as a coach, not a player. Recruit him for the VFL side, not the AFL side.
Are we trying to break our own world record of seeing how many small forwards we can squeeze into 1 side?
Motlop Williams Fogarty Durdin White F.Young Evans Moir
Thank f*** fantasia got himself injured otherwise we'd find a spot for him as well.
The only way any of this males sense is if we are trying to do a dodgy and not trigger some players contract bonuses and/or extensions. Eg if player x plays xx amount of games he gets this amount of money as a bonus or he gets an extra year added to his current contract.
They realise that tanking doesnt really benefit us when the hawks have our 1st round pick, yeah?
I dont know how you avoid an umpire when you cant see him. Its not like he was facing the ump and ran into him.
Neale if anything used the umpire to break the tag. Not enough being said about that.
Mate they are forever ranting and gesticulating about where they are going to exit the ball up/bounce from, I get the players are focused on their role/opponent but part of that involves being aware of obstacles. God knows they have had it rammed down their throat, some just dont get it.
Agree, to a degree.
Umps make it clear where they are going. However, they don't demand the area gets.cleared behind them. They should ensure that no player lines up behind them for a 2m width directly behind him. That way he can run backwards without a worry.
What happens now is players use the umpires path to break a tag. Hold a player behind the umpires, give him a nudge, win a free kick. Players are bending the rules to their advantage.
Simply tell them to f*** right off anywhere behind the umpire and then that tactic is dead and the umpire contact problem is solved.
I must watch a different Motlop to most. Yeah, he needs to finish his work and makes some poor decisions, but he does a lot right. Adds a different dimension at stoppage. 5 clearances last night. Only behind Hewitt and Cripps. I can't see a world that you wouldn't play him or even trade him.
Yep. In Motlop you see glimpses. You see talent. You see hope.
Yes, you see mistakes....but he isn't alone in that.
I see similar in Moir. You see glimpses. You see talent. You see hope.
Yes, you see mistakes....but he isn't alone in that.
Not too many players you can say that about. Plenty of others might turn out to be ok, but there is no out and out talent on display like the other 2.
I was picking generic data. Not favouring one or the other.
I included complete ruck stats to show relative numbers there. That is... Pitto wins 1/2 the hitouts of contests he is in. TDK 1/3 Pitto gets 1/5 hitouts to advantage from ruck contests he attends. TDK is 1 in 7.
TDK played most of his game forward...cool....Pitto outscored him, took more contested marks, had as many score involvements. But TDK looks pretty running around the ground and can jump higher. None of this translates to actual output on game day.
You didn't want to include TOG for those 2 though? Does it hurt your defence? Pitto TOG - 74% TDK TOG - 85%
As for Fantasia vs Motlop......i chose that comparison before even looking at the stats and was surprised how much better Motlop did.
Im not the one making an argument here. TDK was playing as a forward (poorly at that) and my standout moment of the game for him, was us conceding whilst he was checking on a teamate that fell over, and the opposition waltzed away with the footy. Look after your mate later thanks.
I have no complaints with Pittonet, and have defended him from the time he signed a 4 year deal.
Re: Motlop, he gets a free pass because we are bereft of young talent, but he is not anywhere near elite for a small forward. I cant remember the last time he scored a goal and did well, and we are about to move him around the ground to try and find other ways to impact the game.
My point was this.
TDK gets credit. Pittonet gets not much (this game being perhaps the only exception in recent time) but stats wise.....it does NOT give you any insight into what the market offers are. That is, based on output, both are worth the same.
Similarly Fantasia and Motlop. Both get chastised. Motlop has age on his side and is performing at least to the same level of the wiley old veteran we recruited for his experience. Who should be congratulated and who should be chastised for not giving enough.
If i put comparisons of player a vs player b....we have a different discussion than if i put the actual names there.....and that is the issue. Peoples perception change based on the names. Forget the names, look at whats being offered in terms of output.
I'm not selective. Curnow, Weitering, TDK, Cripps.....they've all copped it from me lately.
The take home point is this.... Perform, or piss off and give a kid a go.
lol.....not surprised you are living in a 'fantasy' world.
Are you going LP on me. The stats only matter if you put them up.
Stats are stats.
Supercoach points can change based on free kicks given for / against. You can have a free kick against you for a 'professional free' or from a poor umpiring decision. A long kick to a 50-50 contest is an effective kick even if we lose it. If it goes 40m to a contest its ineffective.
Motlop kicked the ball through for an opposition behind. By those stats, its ineffective. By reality, he saved us a goal.
Now that the season is dead, you set standards. You a kid wanting to play AFL footy? You need to bang the door down like this VFL hack who isnt good enough. Why is he so much better at the level than you if he's rubbish?
AFL players? You want to play AFL footy or continue at the club? Dont go to the VFL and give us what Blake Acres did today. He should have been one of the best on. Instead he was just going. The workrate was there, the ability to hit targets not. Thats a negative for an important senior player.
Set the standards now. Playing the kids at AFL level before they have time, or gifting us games through a rebuild is precisely why we are rubbish. Brisbane's Deven Robertson has been squeezed out of their senior team. He has that many players ahead of him, you could forgive him for going at half rat power. They were 6 goals up with 10 minutes to play, and he ended up with a bloody nose because of his commitment to the contest, and statistically was 2nd best Lion on the day, out of 18 senior listed players. He isnt guaranteed a game next week, and it shows. Our boys by contrast, dont want it enough. Set THAT standard. Its way more important than gifting any young kid a game.
Look, i get it.
Set the standard, reward VFL form etc. Thats fine. That CAN lead to improvement on field. Its what we've done in the last few weeks though and how has that worked out? If we only picked blokes who were setting standards, we'd have about half a teams worth of players running out each week.
So...that ain't working. Remembering we rewarded Evans 2 weeks ago, then found him wanting and shafted him back to the 2's, now we want to promote him again? Its not helping us, him or anyone.
We have to make some very tough calls this off-season. We've got 6-7 weeks to gather a wealth of information that we normally wouldn't be able to do if we were still in finals contention. Don't blow it.
Lemmey is possibly more likely to be delisted then re-signed for next year. Are we 100% certain thats the right thing to do? Play him in the 1's and find out. White? Young? Play them. Evans and Fantasia....we know what we will get....what do we gain by playing them??
Billy Wilson....Jaxon Binns.....at this stage, i'd delist them both. Play them and see if they can surprise you. Give Charleson a crack while you can.
These blokes will give you more effort in the 1's than most of the team so far. We are not playing to win. So what are we playing for??
Evans is not the future. Let him dominate at VFL level, but playing him at AFL shows gives us nothing both now and in the future. Play a kid in his place.
For a side like ours, that is supposedly not trying, we cannot ignore the sort of game he played in the VFL.
You want to set standards at the club? Drop the talent, and reward the guys who are working.
Evans was second best of the blues on ground statistically (beaten by Ethan Phillips). 3 goals, 18 disposals, 8 marks, 8 tackles. Thats putting your hand up.
Billy Wilson was next. 1 goal. 23 disposals. 8 marks 3 tackles. Jordan Boyd not far behind Billy. Will white also had a dip.
We weren't very good.
I dont want to see Evans on our list next season, but if we are going to achieve anything for the rest of this year, you have to reward the solid VFL form when a player puts his hand up, particularly with the ones going as badly as they have been.
I'm not sure what you think we can acheive this year, other than playing kids and giving them experience.
Oh and time on ground percetange 81% motlop, and Fantasia 51%.
Fantasia's issues are reliability.
Not capability. Reliability limits his capability.
Both of them are luxuries a side like ours cannot afford.
TDK played most of his game forward, and Pittonet mostly in the ruck. Thats another stinky comparison.
I was picking generic data. Not favouring one or the other.
I included complete ruck stats to show relative numbers there. That is... Pitto wins 1/2 the hitouts of contests he is in. TDK 1/3 Pitto gets 1/5 hitouts to advantage from ruck contests he attends. TDK is 1 in 7.
TDK played most of his game forward...cool....Pitto outscored him, took more contested marks, had as many score involvements. But TDK looks pretty running around the ground and can jump higher. None of this translates to actual output on game day.
You didn't want to include TOG for those 2 though? Does it hurt your defence? Pitto TOG - 74% TDK TOG - 85%
As for Fantasia vs Motlop......i chose that comparison before even looking at the stats and was surprised how much better Motlop did.
Whoever said about Evans getting a game, and spweing up, I would have my bucket ready for next week.
It wasn't me, but i share the sentiment.
Evans is not the future. Let him dominate at VFL level, but playing him at AFL shows gives us nothing both now and in the future. Play a kid in his place.
I think fans like to blame outsiders. Fantasia had a great game yesterday and still got blamed. TDK is in that outsider camp now.
If Fantasia had a 'great' game, what type of game would you say Motlop had?
Fantasia vs Motlop - Stat 14 vs 17 - Disposals 1 vs 6 - Marks 1 vs 5 - Clearances 4 vs 3 - Inside 50's 1 vs 2 - Rebound 50's 13 vs 18 - Pressure acts 4 vs 4 - Tackles 4 vs 5 - Score involvements 1.0 vs 0.1 - Scoring (G.B)
29 vs 21 - Age
If you want to talk about TDK...
TDK vs Pittonet - Stat 14 vs 7 - Disposals 0 vs 2 - Intercept disposals 3 vs 1 - Marks 0 vs 1 - Contested Marks 2 vs 1 - Clearances 0 vs 1 - Inside 50's 0 vs 0 - Rebound 50's 5 vs 6 - Pressure acts 4 vs 2 - Tackles 4 vs 4 - Score involvements 1.0 vs 2.0 - Scoring (G.B) 33 vs 66 - Ruck contests 10 vs 34 - Hitouts 4 vs 14 - Hitouts to advantage
Compare the pair.... One is 'a hack' who needs to be replaced. One is '1.7mil worthy' who is 'elite'.
So boo hoo about outsiders all you like. There are other 'hacks' that are outperforming them. So perhaps they are not outsiders at all, rather just underperforming.
) then why does he have a spot on our list?