I was having a read of the "Welcome to Carlton- Orazio Fantasia" thread.
Most of the concern seemed to be more centered around his durability. Could we get him on the park and keep him on it? Well with 9 games so that doesn't seem to be the issue. So it's more about form
Lots of varying opinions as to the value of the pick-up.
@Kruddler....you definitely weren't a fan posting this a day or two before we picked him up.
Probably a bit much You sure there's not just a little bit of bias in your assessment
Ha Ha.
Go back to the best 22 thread (part 1?) and i think you'll find i backed the MC in and had him in my best 22.
My issue with 'players' have always been around the role they play when picked. Not themselves as people. I've been banging the same drum for half a decade or more in regards to picking up a key back (or 3) until we get one that can perform the role long term.
My issue is when we ignore that and take players in positions NOT in need. Fantasia falls into that category. We delisted Honey and picked up Fantasia. What has he brought us that Honey wasn't? People were very critical of Honey, to the point they pushed him out the door, yet same people are sticking by him. Why?
We recruited small runners in the off-season. We recruited a small runner in the MSD We will recruit 2 small runners in the upcoming ND with the campo twins. THIS is my frustration with the recruitment of Fantasia.
I guess that given his output (apparently) is so low he’ll be replaced by a player who’s kicking the door down in the twos… what’s his name again ? Help me here.
Lets try it another way.
Who is Fantasia outperforming in the 1's right now?
If we get a player back from injury, who deserves to be dropped before we get to Fantasia?
Now, back to playing your game. 1. Durdin.....he is younger, output is the same, get games into the younger blokes. 2. Binns....certainly knocking the door down, plays a different position, but we can move the team around to accomodate him if we want too. 3. Cottrell, Motlop, Martin, Cuningham.....first one fit gets back in the side. 4. Moir....seems to be struggling in the 2's. Reckon he is the type of player that lifts with the talent around him. I would like to see him get at least 1 game this year, why not now?
So you tell me, what have we got to lose by playing one of the above?
Presumably it'll be Goldstein rucking with Wright as backup? If so, it'll be TDK and Harry again and I reckon Harry offers more around the ground while on-ball than Wright does. And TDK would have Goldstein covered around the ground too. So no changes on that front IMO.
Only change I could see is if Motlop fires in the VFL then he would come in....likely for Fantasia. Other than Wright and Jones, I don't think Bombers are that tall in the forward line unless I'm missing someone. Stringer will be a tough match up but one I could see Kemp taking on.
Might be worth putting McGovern on stringer. He has a bit more pace than Kemp and it would mean the bombers would have a decision to make. Do they.... a) Use stringer as a decoy to drag McGovern away from the ball to limit his peeling off/3rd man in defensive nous. b) Try and use stringer as a go-to and bring McGovern closet to the ball helping be the 3rd man up when it doesn't go to Stringer. c) Try and push stringer into the midfield to break that matchup and hurting their attack as a result.
Either way, it works in our favour, assuming Gov can defend to an acceptable level 1-on-1.
At least he'd not missing half a season like another 5 or so on the list who should be playing his role and thats worth remembering when bagging him.
No, he's not missing half a season. Instead he's missing half a game (or more) each week.
I'd prefer the players who miss half a season, at least they can perform when fit.
Look, i've got nothing against him personally, and most of this should be directed at the match committee as much as anything, but he simply isn't performing up to the standard of a 28yo (soon to be 29yo). There is no way that the recruiters would've recruited him if they had've known this was the output they would get from him. People are happy to see the backs off Marchbank, Cuningham and Martin who have struggled to get out on the park.....but all of them have been able to perform when they do to an acceptable AFL level.
If Fantasia is old, busted and no longer able to perform at an acceptable level, thats fine. Happens to everyone. If Fantasia is simply getting a game because everyone else is injured, thats fine. Someone has to be picked. But don't tell me he is a valuable member of the side. Don't tell me his output is acceptable. Don't tell me he deserves his spot in the side. His output suggests otherwise to all of the above.
Fantasia missed a game against Geelong. Durdin, Owies and Carroll struggled didnt offer much pressure.
Not sure why supporters have to try to find problems when we're playing well and winning? Do you think if Orazio played in the centre he would only get 10 touches? Do you think Cripps would get 30 if he played half forward?
You can play well and still be carrying someone.....or multiple players.
You can be content with simply winning, or you can try and improve each and every week, quarter, contest. An obviously week area at present is Fantasia. Its not wrong to point this out. As many have said, he is getting a game because plenty of others are injured.....and thats about the only valid reson for it. But don't take a 'win' as justification of him performing 'well'.
McDonalds is one of the biggest companies in the world. It is not content. It is always trying to innovate, and stay ahead of the game, not simply keep doing 'more of the same' because its worked so far. Their motto is "Green and growing". Its a reference to trees/plants...and similar to Brendan Bolton and his green shoots. While you are green and growing, you are constantly getting bigger, better and not slowing down. This is what i want from my club. Not kicking back and becoming content and failing to innovate. That kind of logic is what set us back and head first into the dark ages we are still emerging from. Lets learn from our mistakes.
So yes, winning, now, still a hell of a lot of room for improvement. #1 on that list is #14.
"And he's able to do that and I'm sure over a period of time he'll become a very valuable member of our team."
He'll BECOME a very valuable member. as opposed to He IS a very valuable member.
I don't expect Vossy to say any player is 'no good', you expect him to say what he said. But lets read between the lines (like above) rather than drinking the kool-aid.
Agreed, and he'll probably be retained in that circumstance, last Thursday I thought he was again a little bit better, he'll need to improve further against CheatsFC.
But having said that when you watch the replay there are a couple of ordinary moments where you can see Fantasia around a disputed footy choose to hang back while a team mate suffers an opposition blitzkrieg. I immediately thought of the time sMurph was being pummelled and Touhy and Henderson jogged on by, no matter what your role might be in my book is that choice of action is unacceptable. You go onto the field of play expecting your team-mates to have your back, so you better have theirs too, whether they are being assaulted or set upon for the footy, you must help!
One other thing I've noticed I presume he is also carrying and injury, I had expected Fantasia to be the fleet footed option of our smalls but at the moment he appears to be the slowest of the lot.
I remember Fantasia was always called soft previously. I've seen a few examples of it while playing with us, but i'm very hesitent to call players out for it.
But, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck- , and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck
Durdin is ahead in goals but that’s it, and his last five or six games yielded no goals and little else. Fantasia does more behind and around the ball and Voss is clearly happier with the role that Fantasia is performing.
Motlop’s form from last season is irrelevant; he hasn’t been available and his form in what was virtually a practice game for him was average. Motlop is also a very different type of player to Fantasia in that his impact is as a forward and the latter does more work behind the ball.
That said, I wouldn’t hesitate to replace Fantasia with Motlop or Martin if they were fit and in form. Same with Durdin.
I wouldn't say voss is happy with Fantasias output, if he was he wouldn't be making him sub and subbing him out as often as he does.
Fantasia might be following orders and thats keeping him in the side, but he is not performing 'well'.
I'd prefer cuningham, martin or motlop in the side ahead of him.....and even durdin.....but only with 1 of them available is he 'doing his job'.
Fantasia is getting a game because Motlop has been injured and was poor in his return game, Martin is having his usual third of the season holiday and Durdin couldnt get a kick in a loaded horse float.
Pretty much.
Fantasia is 'doing his role' is fine. But what was he doing that Durdin wasn't? Its certainly not kicking goals. Going through all the stats show very similar. Plenty have noted Durdin on the last line of defence, so he is clearly working hard as well.
My point about Motlop which most seem to have missed is that pure output wise, he is $hitting all over Fantasia, despite being 10 years younger. Usually when you recruit a mature age player, you do so knowing that you'll get MORE output that the kids they are replacing.
The alternatives are many, but include Motlop......who kicked 4 goals against this mob as a late in last year. Kickd 2 goals or more 10 times last year as well....as a 19yo.
Meanwhile, this (soon to be) 29yo has kicked 2 goals in 10 games.....total
