I don't expect the same feeling as last week, but I can hope.
I don't expect the same feeling as last week, but I can hope.
Your thread title needs to be spell checked.
Your thread title needs to be spell checked.
There are times when mu entire brain needs a spell check. ;)
There are times when mu entire brain needs a spell check. ;)
I kno the feeeelling whell.
So before people start questioning why player x is getting a game, i thought i'd copy this from what i wrote in the in-game thread.
@Prof....
Injury list heading into this game...
David Cuningham Hamstring Season
Jesse Glass-McCasker Knee 2 weeks
Sam Docherty* Knee Season
Zac Fisher Leg Season
Liam Jones Knee Season
Matthew Kreuzer Heart Test
Kym LeBois Hamstring 4 weeks
Cillian McDaid Foot 1 week
Andrew Phillips Hamstring Season
Lachie Plowman Knee Season
Alex Silvagni Achilles Season
Jacob Weitering Quad Test
Tom Williamson Back
Add in J. Silvagni who was a late out with injury
14 players.
We are (obviously) playing 22 today.
That makes 36.
That leaves 9 players who are not on either of those 2 lists.
1. Casboult
2. Kerridge
3. Mullett
4. Shaw
5. Schumacher
6. De Koning
7. Macreadie
8. Garlett
9. Kerr
Blokes not up to AFL standard
Kids who have been injured and play a position already taken by kids
Somewhere inbetween the 2 other categories.
So remind me....who exactly should we playing in place of Graham, Polson, Lang and whoever else you have an issue with?
Could be worse...we could support Gold Coast
Melb 57- GC 6 at quarter time.
There is something radically wrong with this competition.
Could be worse...we could support Gold Coast
Melb 57- GC 6 at quarter time.
There is something radically wrong with this competition.
I DARE them not to apply for a priority pick.
Other than H and Crippa, I dont know what to take out of that. They were too fast, skilled, strong and smart. Kelly would have walked away from that thinking no way I will go to that club in a hurry. Souless and spiritless performance. The only stats we won were hit outs and bounces.
Looking at the hybrid, half-arsed free agency is a big starting point!
Then they need to get some real control over the under the table payments.
That last qtr was the most embarrassing since I started following footy 55 years ago. They were down to 17, even even 16.....16!!!!!!!!
We are so poorly structured, poorly drilled that we had no idea how to take advantage of that. what have we been doing for the last 3 years.
The result shouldn't really surprise, GWS are a well skilled and hard at it side and they'll take some beating this season, we are injury hit and very inexperienced.
Patience Grasshopper.
We are so poorly structured, poorly drilled that we had no idea how to take advantage of that.
I think it's the exact opposite.
We are over-structured, over-coached and over-drilled which makes us too predictable for any half-talented basic footballing opponent!
Freewill doesn't allow for that sort of performance, it takes a significant amount of planning to be that bad!
As I've said before until we get our player development sorted out we are in big trouble. We are crap at player development so recruiting blokes who need a lot of development will mean we double down on being poor!
You can draft athletes if you have good development coaches if you don't then don't do it!
That last qtr was the most embarrassing since I started following footy 55 years ago. They were down to 17, even even 16.....16!!!!!!!!
We are so poorly structured, poorly drilled that we had no idea how to take advantage of that. what have we been doing for the last 3 years.
Potentially 15.
They had 2 off and then a blood rule. Unclear if he was replaced immediately or not.
The result shouldn't really surprise, GWS are a well skilled and hard at it side and they'll take some beating this season, we are injury hit and very inexperienced.
Patience Grasshopper.
12 months ago i saw these 2 sides go at it on the same venue.
Carlton won by 1 point.
Only difference was today they played a handicap match and won by 100 points.
12 months ago i saw these 2 sides go at it on the same venue.
Carlton won by 1 point.
Only difference was today they played a handicap match and won by 100 points.
Ain’t Apples and apples unfortunately.
CARLTON
B
Liam Jones Alex Silvagni Jacob Weitering
HB
Kade Simpson Lachie Plowman Caleb Marchbank
C
Sam Docherty Patrick Cripps Jed Lamb
HF
Ed Curnow Dale Thomas Charlie Curnow
F
Liam Sumner Levi Casboult Matthew Wright
FOL
Matthew Kreuzer Bryce Gibbs Marc Murphy
I/C
Jack Silvagni Zac Fisher David Cuningham Tom Williamson
I DARE them not to apply for a priority pick.
We won't get a PP, but GC will without any doubt! ;)
The result shouldn't really surprise, GWS are a well skilled and hard at it side and they'll take some beating this season, we are injury hit and very inexperienced.
Patience Grasshopper.
You know how injury hit they are?
They had 16 on the ground and outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr. That you don't have patience with. That's a sacking.
12 months ago i saw these 2 sides go at it on the same venue.
Carlton won by 1 point.
Only difference was today they played a handicap match and won by 100 points.
Kreuzer, Gibbs and Docherty are big outs, especially when Kreuzer is replaced by Lobbe, Docherty by O'Shea and Gibbs by Graham.
Suns are trying to outdo us. 77 - 7 halfway through the 2nd quarter.
People are getting too hung up over the 1 or 2 player differential. Injuries, too many bad losses, too many kids/spuds..........you get to the end of the season and all these factors start to take a cumulative toll.
They could have had 12 on the park in the last q, no difference. We are simply too far behind the pack and have a lot of ground to make up.
You know how injury hit they are?
They had 16 on the ground and outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr. That you don't have patience with. That's a sacking.
Sack him now and we might as well hand in the keys.
You know how injury hit they are?
They had 16 on the ground and outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr. That you don't have patience with. That's a sacking.
is that true? 16 only? I was at the ground and didnt notice. In fact, they seemed to outnumber us at every contest
We won't get a PP, but GC will without any doubt! ;)
I've changed my mind.
I think we'll now ask and receive one.
GC will get one too.
The AFL have to step in because these results affect the brand.
Good tight contests all weekend would have had them excited.... and now Carlton and GC step in and spoil the week.
Something will have to happen regarding free agency too.
We cant continue to have the best players going to the top clubs or this vast gap that already exists between top and bottom will grow even wider.
is that true? 16 only? I was at the ground and didnt notice. In fact, they seemed to outnumber us at every contest
Only for a couple of minutes, but yes, I'm pretty sure it's true.
We gave up in the last quarter so they could have had 12 on the park as Paul suggested and we would still struggle......
Once Cripps was kept honest by Ward and Ed couldnt handle Kelly the game was over...Cripps to his credit kept plugging away and we saw some nice cameo stuff from Harry and Paddy Dow but we just didnt have the talent on the park to go with GWS.
A game to move quickly on from and I think most of our attention has to be in the trade/draft period...playing wise its just going through the motions and even the coaching staff look over it..
Only for a couple of minutes, but yes, I'm pretty sure it's true.
They had 17 on the ground for at least the last 10 minutes and they were still getting free. Bolton's time is up.
They had 17 on the ground for at least the last 10 minutes and they were still getting free. Bolton's time is up.
His time may well be up, but that's not relevant to the discussion. 18 Sam Rowes are not not better than 12 Josh Kellys.
Another abysmal display. It was embarrassing. They were alternating between 17 and 16 players on the ground in the last and actually looked prepared to run more while our blokes were happy to job around chasing arse. So many passengers still getting a game due to our lack of depth.
Oh and thanks to the umps for really driving the dagger in. Pathetic display.
A new low. Again. The vultures will be circlinh this week
His time may well be up, but that's not relevant to the discussion. 18 Sam Rowes are not not better than 12 Josh Kellys.
That's it in a nutshell.
Even allowing for our injuries, and they are significant, our list is paper thin and still needs major work, no team can carry so many sub standard players into a game against a good side and expect to be competitive.
We'll pick up one top class player at this year's draft which will help but we're still half a dozen short.
The next two years will be the biggest test of our recrukting.
Another abysmal display. It was embarrassing. They were alternating between 17 and 16 players on the ground in the last and actually looked prepared to run more while our blokes were happy to job around chasing arse. So many passengers still getting a game due to our lack of depth.
Oh and thanks to the umps for really driving the dagger in. Pathetic display.
I was extremely surprised to see the frees 22 23 in their favour. I was expecting it to be very lop sided. Its where they are paid that counts I guess.
when does our pre season start (real preseason).
I've changed my mind.
I think we'll now ask and receive one.
GC will get one too.
The AFL have to step in because these results affect the brand.
Good tight contests all weekend would have had them excited.... and now Carlton and GC step in and spoil the week.
Something will have to happen regarding free agency too.
We cant continue to have the best players going to the top clubs or this vast gap that already exists between top and bottom will grow even wider.
Absolutely we will get one.
Where is the question. 19 won’t make a lot of difference.
9 would be handy.
2 would be great but will not happen.
Free agency is easy to fix, the club receiving the players should give up a draft pick, not the balance of the competition.
His time may well be up, but that's not relevant to the discussion. 18 Sam Rowes are not not better than 12 Josh Kellys.
18 Mark Murphys are not better than 12 Josh Kelly’s
Absolutely we will get one.
Where is the question. 19 won’t make a lot of difference.
9 would be handy.
2 would be great but will not happen.
Free agency is easy to fix, the club receiving the players should give up a draft pick, not the balance of the competition.
I don't understand how we can ask for one after the CEO came out and categorically stated we will not ask. I look forward to hearing him explain his way out of that.
That's it in a nutshell.
Even allowing for our injuries, and they are significant, our list is paper thin and still needs major work, no team can carry so many sub standard players into a game against a good side and expect to be competitive.
We'll pick up one top class player at this year's draft which will help but we're still half a dozen short.
The next two years will be the biggest test of our recrukting.
Yes agree. I think we've all underestimated the enormity of the task ahead - maybe even the club.
Kelly has great support, you look at Kennedy and Lang today and they are not up to it vs decent opposition, Cripps tried hard and Dow showed he has the goods when he has the footy and breaks away but its slim picking after that....when you have Obrien having to pick up Tomlinson on the wing its not a contest anymore.
I've changed my mind.
I think we'll now ask and receive one.
GC will get one too.
The AFL have to step in because these results affect the brand.
Good tight contests all weekend would have had them excited.... and now Carlton and GC step in and spoil the week.
Something will have to happen regarding free agency too.
We cant continue to have the best players going to the top clubs or this vast gap that already exists between top and bottom will grow even wider.
I live interstate Lods. The AFL media this week sent this message. "It's such a tight competition" (pat thyself on the back).
I had a wager with a friend about how many tight games there would be (the cynic in me bet that all but us/GC would be).
Surprise surprise. Look what's unfolding. (Saints aside).
FWIW I had a wager with the same person a couple of years ago when Bulldogs were down. Mr maggiliggy told the afl world his greatest wish was for the Dogs to bring home a flag. I bet they'd win in the next 2 seasons. They did. Now I'm no Nostradamus but there's some fine coincidence in this here competition.
Agree with those touting system changes. Our mate MM repeatedly highlighted this in the media some 6 or so years ago. He called it a 2 tier system, and I wholeheartedly agreed. I don't want the buy a flag system back at Carlton (perhaps we're the exception atm ::). I do want some equity across clubs. Geelong are the finest example of getting what others can't get. The infuriating part for mine Is, it's so blatant yet accepted. I can't figure it out. If we don't get a pp then no team should. EOS.
That's it in a nutshell.
Even allowing for our injuries, and they are significant, our list is paper thin and still needs major work, no team can carry so many sub standard players into a game against a good side and expect to be competitive.
We'll pick up one top class player at this year's draft which will help but we're still half a dozen short.
The next two years will be the biggest test of our recrukting.
As has been the past 3. Do you really trust our blokes to get it right? Most of the cr@p traded in over the past 3 years has been a big fail. But wonderful favours to other clubs.
Yes, list shallowness and injuries contribute but the spiritless effort from the start (there have been many this year, actually) suggests bigger problems in other areas.
Kelly has great support, you look at Kennedy and Lang today and they are not up to it vs decent opposition, Cripps tried hard and Dow showed he has the goods when he has the footy and breaks away but its slim picking after that....when you have Obrien having to pick up Tomlinson on the wing its not a contest anymore.
Their running power was on display for all to see today. Kelly is jet, 3, 8 and 2 don't go to bad either.
I don't understand how we can ask for one after the CEO came out and categorically stated we will not ask. I look forward to hearing him explain his way out of that.
He should be sacked for saying but that’s a whole other issue.
Whether he said it or not, the AFL can’t keep this facade up. There is nothing even about the competition and in the last 6-8 years they have made it less so.
He should be sacked for saying but that’s a whole other issue.
Whether he said it or not, the AFL can’t keep this facade up. There is nothing even about the competition and in the last 6-8 years they have made it less so.
Can the AFL go to Carlton and hand over a PP over without us asking?
Their running power was on display for all to see today. Kelly is jet, 3, 8 and 2 don't go to bad either.
Yep...we looked really slow, no run from the backline and Whitfield really carved us up breaking the lines....that kid can really play and his disposal on the run is some of the best I have seen.
We won't get a PP even if we ask, we did this to ourselves deliberately.
GC are the opposite, they have a core of experienced players and are losing many of their best young players, yet they are as bad if not worse than us. They'll get a PP for sure which will devalue our later picks.
The system makes it almost impossible to get off the bottom.
Yep...we looked really slow, no run from the backline and Whitfield really carved us up breaking the lines....that kid can really play and his disposal on the run is some of the best I have seen.
Dead set jet.
Questions
1. If GC ask or receive a pp, do we automatically get one?
2. Would we have an AFL standard list if us/GC combined?
3. How does 7 season ending injuries compare to other years/teams?
Can the AFL go to Carlton and hand over a PP over without us asking?
We will be told to apply I am certain of that.
I hope we end up with 1 & 9 and our two second rounders.
I would then trade pick 1 and a second rounder for multiple first round picks.
We have 12 players we need to move on and we need some serious quality.
Signing Murphy was a major mistake. We need competitive 24-26 year olds not outside players on a retirement plan.
As has been the past 3. Do you really trust our blokes to get it right? Most of the cr@p traded in over the past 3 years has been a big fail. But wonderful favours to other clubs.
Yes, list shallowness and injuries contribute but the spiritless effort from the start (there have been many this year, actually) suggests bigger problems in other areas.
I think the plan was that Mullet, O'Shea etc. were meant to be NB players more than anything, providing depth where required, helping the kids, bit of experience etc. SOS freely admitted in the recent Caro interview that not every trade / draft recruit works out. I don't think they were ever meant to play this much senior footy.
The best laid plans and all that..........
We won't get a PP even if we ask, we did this to ourselves deliberately.
GC are the opposite, they have a core of experienced players and are losing many of their best young players, yet they are as bad if not worse than us. They'll get a PP for sure which will devalue our later picks.
The system makes it almost impossible to get off the bottom.
This draft also looking to have a lot of top talent from interstate / academies. Can't see that helping us either. Even in the unlikely event of getting pp...
As has been the past 3. Do you really trust our blokes to get it right? Most of the cr@p traded in over the past 3 years has been a big fail. But wonderful favours to other clubs.
Yes, list shallowness and injuries contribute but the spiritless effort from the start (there have been many this year, actually) suggests bigger problems in other areas.
I've been happy with our recruiting since 2015 but we were coming from miles back due to our abysmal record in the decade prior.
There's no point dwelling on it, but how Hughes lasted 10 years at the club is totally mystifying.
There's plenty to like about our current crop of young players but they need time and the AFL is a very unforgiving environment.
Some of them will fall away but the strong will survive.
Yep...we looked really slow, no run from the backline and Whitfield really carved us up breaking the lines....that kid can really play and his disposal on the run is some of the best I have seen.
Their field kicking was as good as I've seen from anyone this season but we didn't apply much pressure so it was a bit of a training run.
I've been happy with our recruiting since 2015 but we were coming from miles back due to our abysmal record in the decade prior.
There's no point dwelling on it, but how Hughes lasted 10 years at the club is totally mystifying.
There's plenty to like about our current crop of young players but they need time and the AFL is a very unforgiving environment.
Some of them will fall away but the strong will survive.
When the chequebook is your main weapon in building a team, you don't need a recruiter, and you don't need player development either. Just buy what you need, and pay them overs, or in our case, overs and under..........the table.
From what I witnessed today we must be so far off the pace it will take us 10 drafts to catch up and Cripps will be well-retired or in a bl00dy wheelchair! We were literally reduced to witches hats by the end. A few drinks for me tonight methinks! >:(
I've been happy with our recruiting since 2015 but we were coming from miles back due to our abysmal record in the decade prior.
There's no point dwelling on it, but how Hughes lasted 10 years at the club is totally mystifying.
There's plenty to like about our current crop of young players but they need time and the AFL is a very unforgiving environment.
Some of them will fall away but the strong will survive.
I agree with this. Problem is, we are now so far behind, and with free agency rules the way they stand it will be near impossible to get back to being competitive. Major list turnover required again
Crisis time .... yet again. The club needs to change its position re the PP and as forcefully as they can
The AFL have given us nothing
Yep...we looked really slow, no run from the backline and Whitfield really carved us up breaking the lines....that kid can really play and his disposal on the run is some of the best I have seen.
Agree on Whitfield, Kelly was the standout today for mine, it was a pleasure to watch, his running power and disposal was head and shoulders above everyone on the ground. BB said in his presser (respectfully to other top teams) their midfield running power is the best he has seen all season. And they didnt have Shiel out there who is another running machine.
We need the PP, but we need a hell of a lot more than just that
Agree on Whitfield, Kelly was the standout today for mine, it was a pleasure to watch, his running power and disposal was head and shoulders above everyone on the ground. BB said in his presser (respectfully to other top teams) their midfield running power is the best he has seen all season. And they didnt have Shiel out there who is another running machine.
Yes, I know they have plenty of talent, but I find them to be a very pure, very nuanced football team. Not that Richmond "frenetic midgets on speed" crap.
As doom and gloom as it all is - Harry McKay looks the real deal. Polson was awesome in those few flashes and Dow is going to be a serious player.
Polson looks like he should clearly be still playing VFL as he's not ready but those bits of class and courage running back with the flight show you there is potential there.
Harry - sensational. He is going to monster some opposition over the next 10 years. Could he end up being better than Charlie? That thought hadn't even occurred to me until today but that was a massive step forward today under severe duress.
Dow stepping around, in and out of trouble. He doesn't have the extreme sideways immediate burst speed of Judd but he's got some similar traits.
There's something to go with the truckload of negatives from today.
Having said that I will storm Carlton HQ if we don't ask for a PP.
Yes, I know they have plenty of talent, but I find them to be a very pure, very nuanced football team. Not that Richmond "frenetic midgets on speed" crap.
GWS play with precision player placement and disposal. Richmond move the ball forward at all costs and place immense pressure.
Kelly has great support, you look at Kennedy and Lang today and they are not up to it vs decent opposition, Cripps tried hard and Dow showed he has the goods when he has the footy and breaks away but its slim picking after that....when you have Obrien having to pick up Tomlinson on the wing its not a contest anymore.
What a terrible day. Sad thing is these sorts of losses are not even shocking anymore.
The development of mid field B graders like Kennedy and Lang must be addressed this trade period.
3 full years into a full rebuild and this area is still non competitive. Yes Fisher and Kreuzer were missing today bit they absolutely hammered us in there. And they had no Taranto and no Shiel. Kennedy looks like a decent footballer but is so slow and I hate how when he has a quiet one like today he provides the team with nothing. Lang I seriously cant see what all the hype was about. Might have looked like a decent B-C grade player in a strong Geelong midfield but in ours he looks a dud. Reckon Geelong bent us over again with this guy.
Pickett I don't know about anymore more. Had high hopes for him and yes I know he has had an injury interrupted season but hes another one that just gives nothing when having a quiet day. Its a bad trait IMO.
Wont bother on O'shea, Graham and Polson except to say makes life so much harder when you play 3 down.
Harry made me realise he might just live up to the talk - looks ready to have a breakout season like Charlie did this year, next year.
Yes, I know they have plenty of talent, but I find them to be a very pure, very nuanced football team. Not that Richmond "frenetic midgets on speed" crap.
You said it. Lotsa people been thinkin it ;)
GWS will be in GF is my prediction. Assuming their return from injury plan is not destroyed by more injury.
As doom and gloom as it all is - Harry McKay looks the real deal. Polson was awesome in those few flashes and Dow is going to be a serious player.
Polson looks like he should clearly be still playing VFL as he's not ready but those bits of class and courage running back with the flight show you there is potential there.
Harry - sensational. He is going to monster some opposition over the next 10 years. Could he end up being better than Charlie? That thought hadn't even occurred to me until today but that was a massive step forward today under severe duress.
Dow stepping around, in and out of trouble. He doesn't have the extreme sideways immediate burst speed of Judd but he's got some similar traits.
There's something to go with the truckload of negatives from today.
Having said that I will storm Carlton HQ if we don't ask for a PP.
Pay all of that! We definitely need some positives to cling to atm.
What a terrible day. Sad thing is these sorts of losses are not even shocking anymore.
The development of mid field B graders like Kennedy and Lang must be addressed this trade period.
3 full years into a full rebuild and this area is still non competitive. Yes Fisher and Kreuzer were missing today bit they absolutely hammered us in there. And they had no Taranto and no Shiel. Kennedy looks like a decent footballer but is so slow and I hate how when he has a quiet one like today he provides the team with nothing. Lang I seriously cant see what all the hype was about. Might have looked like a decent B-C grade player in a strong Geelong midfield but in ours he looks a dud. Reckon Geelong bent us over again with this guy.
Pickett I don't know about anymore more. Had high hopes for him and yes I know he has had an injury interrupted season but hes another one that just gives nothing when having a quiet day. Its a bad trait IMO.
Wont bother on O'shea, Graham and Polson except to say makes life so much harder when you play 3 down.
Harry made me realise he might just live up to the talk - looks ready to have a breakout season like Charlie did this year, next year.
You nailed its Shawny...GWS played with us today and it was embarrassing...Kennedy is a good battler/C grade Indian but put him up against decent players and he cant cope...Lang is more of an opportunist and having to play midfield vs quality isnt his cup of tea especially when they have pace and skill like Kelly, Whitfield, Ward etc..
OShea is a VFL player only as is Graham and Polson would struggle vs a good U18 team...
Pickett...doesnt do enough.....we need a Tim Kelly not Pickett....
Ain’t Apples and apples unfortunately.
CARLTON
B: Liam Jones Alex Silvagni Jacob Weitering
HB: Kade Simpson Lachie Plowman Caleb Marchbank
C: Sam Docherty Patrick Cripps Jed Lamb
HF: Ed Curnow Dale Thomas Charlie Curnow
F: Liam Sumner Levi Casboult Matthew Wright
R: Matthew Kreuzer Bryce Gibbs Marc Murphy
Int: Jack Silvagni Zac Fisher David Cuningham Tom Williamson
As frustrated as I am, when I look at what we could put on the field and what we are presently able to put on the field, the result is pretty clear.
[1] From last year's winning team 12 players are missing. Of those, 2 was traded and 1 was delisted.
[2] Of the remaining players, one (Casboult) played in the 2nds yesterday and has not recovered from injury.
[3] Of the remaining, two (Marchbank and Murphy have missed more than half of the season and are not close to full fitness.
That is 15 players from last year's team.
Injury list heading into this game...
David Cuningham Hamstring Season
Jesse Glass-McCasker Knee 2 weeks
Sam Docherty* Knee Season
Zac Fisher Leg Season
Liam Jones Knee Season
Matthew Kreuzer Heart Test
Kym LeBois Hamstring 4 weeks
Cillian McDaid Foot 1 week
Andrew Phillips Hamstring Season
Lachie Plowman Knee Season
Alex Silvagni Achilles Season
Jacob Weitering Quad Test
Tom Williamson Back
Add in J. Silvagni who was a late out with injury
Using Krud's list of injured players from the in-game thread, note that:
[1] 9 of the injured players would be preferred choices to play.
[2] One, (Phillips) would be a 2nd preference, but one who is a much better ruckman than the one we still had on the field (Lobbe) and is also considerably better than those we played against today (Dawson Simpson and Rory Lobb).
[3] Two are relatively untried and may yet be footballers.
Any way you look at it, we are
lacking the first requirement to win games:
talent on the field. Far too much of our talent is in the stands.
The second thing we are lacking is something very basic:
we don't take out the best midfielder of the opposition. We have one tagging midfielder, Ed Curnow, who is the only man who tags in the midfield. This is a problem that the games against Hawthorn and GWS really have shown: we need another guy who can take out top mids. We cannot have guys like Kelly or Mitchell have 40 - 50 possessions in a game.
Our third issue is that our defenders do not get close enough to their opponents.
And from today, what have we done to deserve such ordinary umpiring? In the first half we were murdered. In all the noise about problems in the game, why don't they reward more tackles? According to Dermott Brereton, the stats show that about 5% of tackles are rewarded each game. Many of them involve vases of incorrect disposal, but these tend to be ignored. Why?
Rather than stuff around with the rules, why not enforce the ones we have?
Pay all of that! We definitely need some positives to cling to atm.
Really hard to see the way back when you get hammered this badly. It can all turn around really quickly though. If we can keep our full team on the park, recruit well again and trade a few more seasoned bodies it may not be as bad as all that. GWS showed today the type of players SOS likes. Extreme endurance plus skill mixed with some good in and unders is pretty hard to beat.
As frustrated as I am, when I look at what we could put on the field and what we are presently able to put on the field, the result is pretty clear.
[1] From last year's winning team 12 players are missing. Of those, 2 was traded and 1 was delisted.
[2] Of the remaining players, one (Casboult) played in the 2nds yesterday and has not recovered from injury.
[3] Of the remaining, two (Marchbank and Murphy have missed more than half of the season and are not close to full fitness.
That is 15 players from last year's team.
Using Krud's list of injured players from the in-game thread, note that:
[1] 9 of the injured players would be preferred choices to play.
[2] One, (Phillips) would be a 2nd preference, but one who is a much better ruckman than the one we still had on the field (Lobbe) and is also considerably better than those we played against today (Dawson Simpson and Rory Lobb).
[3] Two are relatively untried and may yet be footballers.
Any way you look at it, we are lacking the first requirement to win games: talent on the field. Far too much of our talent is in the stands.
The second thing we are lacking is something very basic: we don't take out the best midfielder of the opposition. We have one tagging midfielder, Ed Curnow, who is the only man who tags in the midfield. This is a problem that the games against Hawthorn and GWS really have shown: we need another guy who can take out top mids. We cannot have guys like Kelly or Mitchell have 40 - 50 possessions in a game.
Our third issue is that our defenders do not get close enough to their opponents.
And from today, what have we done to deserve such ordinary umpiring? In the first half we were murdered. In all the noise about problems in the game, why don't they reward more tackles? According to Dermott Brereton, the stats show that about 5% of tackles are rewarded each game. Many of them involve vases of incorrect disposal, but these tend to be ignored. Why?
Rather than stuff around with the rules, why not enforce the ones we have?
This is the reality we know but forget at times , our talent sits in the stand, we haven't been able to settle a side all year. Contunity is import when developing a young side mix in season performers they learn on the job. We lost most of the leaders, never replaced Gibbs with either player of leadership, Murphy & Doc through the lot out of balance we had to rely on the ones that should have been in the teaching zone. I don't think we are as bad as all that we have shown given a clear opportunity. We , even today shown glimpses of quality, it's just we don't or can't sew those together , better more experienced sides do that, it will come , leave Bolts, maybe some coaching changes, but to sack bolts would be crazy after the position we are in
I thought there were some glimpses of the future involving the youngsters.
Samo backed up last week's solid game. His clean hands and de a strength
H shined on a dull day. "Potential" translating to performance, contest by contest. The "hands like dinner plates" analogy beginning to show.
Polson has a lot of growth ahead. His pressure paid off a few times today.
Dow faded a bit late on but was clean, hard, and elusive. He's a ripper.
Crippa showed his perseverance. Leadership personified.
Charlie ran and competed well. Shame he missed that early goal.
Kennedy was workman like.
Lang, I can't work out. Seems unsure about what to do next.
LOB had a couple of nice deliveries i50. Could do with a rest IMO
The real handicaps we had today meant we too were playing a few short. That's a list management issuethough.
This was our first game I’ve seen live since the Essendon game.
There are glimpses of something there.
But then someone does something stupid and GWS scored from it.
Please CFC no more dinky kicks in the oppositions F50. Never worked.
When there’s no one in front of you, please just keep running. Or stop and look around. Don’t kick it from 100m out and think that will work, it doesn’t.
Dow - Wow.
Pickett I thought def showed something
Samo unrelenting
Harry - there’s something there definitely.
Wright, Lang, was it O’Shea made some really annoying mistakes when we had momentum.
Umpiring wouldn’t have changed result but I’m sick of us not being rewarded for our tackling.
Decent crowd actually for what was always going to be 3 vs 18!
I don't understand how we can ask for one after the CEO came out and categorically stated we will not ask. I look forward to hearing him explain his way out of that.
He goes to the AFL and says ..."Ï said we got ourselves into this mess and we'll get ourselves out. What I meant to say was.... We got ourselves into this mess and have NFI how to get ourselves out!"
There's really no harm in backing down from a position.
He'd get the support of most Carlton people.
Most commentators have been critical of the decision not to ask for one.
The only folk that would get excited are other clubs and their supporters...and they don't count.
Mind you a PP is not going to solve our problems.... but it's a start.
We won't get a PP even if we ask, we did this to ourselves deliberately.
GC are the opposite, they have a core of experienced players and are losing many of their best young players, yet they are as bad if not worse than us. They'll get a PP for sure which will devalue our later picks.
The system makes it almost impossible to get off the bottom.
That's always been my argument...but we've slipped way beyond that.
If it wasn't for GC being so awful this would be the worst season in our history.
Like Liddle.... it's time for a change of thinking.
We have achieved something I guess....
At least we've set a blueprint for how not to conduct a rebuild.
I still reckon we'll eventually come out of it, but we didn't need to suffer this much and it didn't need to take this long for signs of improvement. ::)
You know how injury hit they are?
They had 16 on the ground and outscored us 7 goals to 1 in the last qtr. That you don't have patience with. That's a sacking.
Yes that's right. Disgusting effort. Walked out at the 10 min mark of the last 1/4. Listened to the reminder of the match on the way home and they were panning us left right and centre.'It was embarrassing and soul crushing.
interestingly GWS had 18 fit players but decided to rest and rotate players hence they player 16-17 throughout the last qtr. They treated us like idiots and we embarrassed ourselves in the process like at no other time that I can remember.
interestingly GWS had 18 fit players but decided to rest and rotate players hence they player 16-17 throughout the last qtr. They treated us like idiots and we embarrassed ourselves in the process like at no other time that I can remember.
Agree...taking two off at once for a hammy rub is total disrespect....
Agree...taking two off at once for a hammy rub is total disrespect....
Yep
But I guess you get the level of respect you earn (or deserve.)
16 v 18 (22) will be a story this week.
How the players respond will be the test of them.
Dear Seven Network, here is the script for next Thursday's opening segment of The Front Bar.
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Opening credits and visual intro.
Intro by AM (wait for applause).
Banter (AM, SP, MM): Wow! What an amazing round of football! 5 games decided by less than a goal - first time in over 100 years of AFL/VFL football.
MM (graphical overlay - results on screen): Beginning Friday night - Richmond by 3 points, then Hawthorn by 4, North Melbourne by 3, Crows by 3, Swans by 2, then Giants by 5 over Carlton. Oh wait, that shouldn't be there - it was actually 105 points (pause for laughter from audience).
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Please transfer agreed fee to enclosed bank a/c.
Yours sincerely
The club admin should make sure all the players are sacked, then sack themselves and then, and then, the board should go as well. And then, with what's left, they should hire some new people and then sack them and... :-X
Pleasing to see measured responses on the board. We have been hammered by injury and have a list that is bottoming out. GWS meanwhile have depth and have played in prelims the past two years and should make the GF. They are peaking and the pounding we got is the sign of a team on a mission. If they get to a GF against Richmond, it will be a great clash of contrasting styles. I would back GWS - precision kicking trumps mad pressure.
Good to see McKay, SPS, Dow play well. They are the future, and lots to look forward to. Curnow and McKay could be the dominant forward duo in a couple of years - akin to Franklin-Roughhead at their peak.
The club admin should make sure all the players are sacked, then sack themselves and then, and then, the board should go as well. And then, with what's left, they should hire some new people and then sack them and... :-X
Pleasing to see measured responses on the board. We have been hammered by injury and have a list that is bottoming out. GWS meanwhile have depth and have played in prelims the past two years and should make the GF. They are peaking and the pounding we got is the sign of a team on a mission. If they get to a GF against Richmond, it will be a great clash of contrasting styles. I would back GWS - precision kicking trumps mad pressure.
Good to see McKay, SPS, Dow play well. They are the future, and lots to look forward to. Curnow and McKay could be the dominant forward duo in a couple of years - akin to Franklin-Roughhead at their peak.
Nice post Viv.
GWS will be tested by the Richmond physical pressure........the men in orange are highly skilled, great athletes but lack a bit of mongrel......they played the little Carlton auskickers today and got some bruise free footy, that wont happen in the finals.
It was weird today. 16,697 at Etihad is small. However, as bad as Carlton were, it didn't seem as bad as it was. GWS were excellent and played some great footy. What we've been complaining about this year, GWS did the opposite. Hit targets, played to the team's advantage, didn't handball/kick/run straight into us and were clean.
They had players where the ball was going and didn't have to kick and hope very often. When we had a lot of time and space, we would find a way to handball it to our teammates feet, or land it short. They had players at the back of a scrum who just managed to take possession and use it. We had players outside of the scrum and fumbled, so we would lose possession. (This is our run of the mill skill set)
I almost feel for O'Shea. He is the opposite of King Midas.
It was interesting that I noticed for the first time that the players on the interchange bench is shown on the screen above the bench. It seemed that Kennedy, Graham, Thomas, Byrne and Polson had the most time off the ground.
Games played from our 'players of the future' who were out there today + a couple that have been in the system a little longer, but not played much (eg Lamb, Lang)
Dow 17
O'Brien 14
SPS 38
Kennedy 30
Cripps 78
McKay 12
Lamb 62
Lang 51
Marchbank 31
Polson 9
Charlie 43
Pickett 15
Byrne 18
The most experienced player of the future is Cripps with 78, and 8 of those 13 have played the equivalent of 2 full seasons - but we expect them to be like Cripps. If 50 games is getting it together as a player, then we still have a way to go.
The players, who aren't our future - some will/will not be at the club next year
Murphy
Simpson
Rowe
O'Shea
Lobbe
Graham
E Curnow
Thomas
Wright (does he have a groin issue - his kicking is not nearly what it was)
The club admin should make sure all the players are sacked, then sack themselves and then, and then, the board should go as well. And then, with what's left, they should hire some new people and then sack them and... :-X
Pleasing to see measured responses on the board. We have been hammered by injury and have a list that is bottoming out. GWS meanwhile have depth and have played in prelims the past two years and should make the GF. They are peaking and the pounding we got is the sign of a team on a mission. If they get to a GF against Richmond, it will be a great clash of contrasting styles. I would back GWS - precision kicking trumps mad pressure.
Good to see McKay, SPS, Dow play well. They are the future, and lots to look forward to. Curnow and McKay could be the dominant forward duo in a couple of years - akin to Franklin-Roughhead at their peak.
The Ferrari v the tricycle waiting for new pedals to arrive in the post ????
http://www.afl.com.au/video/2018-08-05/full-postmatch-blues
Well worth a look this week IMO.
http://www.afl.com.au/video/2018-08-05/full-postmatch-blues
Well worth a look this week IMO.
I watched that earlier today, it was interesting to hear about not putting players behind the ball and letting our mids (young and old) get schooled by the Orange running machines. After today, if they didn't know it already, our blokes will go into the PS knowing exactly what level of fitness it will take to play footy vs the best in 2019.
I watched that earlier today, it was interesting to hear about not putting players behind the ball and letting our mids (young and old) get schooled by the Orange running machines. After today, if they didn't know it already, our blokes will go into the PS knowing exactly what level of fitness it will take to play footy vs the best in 2019.
Yes agree. I think it should give pause for thought when he gets criticised for match day tactics. If you want to get your kids to perform to a particular level, you don't set easier tests - you get them to practice and practice at the required level until they learn. It's as ugly as sin to watch, but here's hoping it will hold them in good stead.
I think this is also part of the reason why he refuses to use more than 1 tagger. He could end up being a failure, but there is method in his approach.
I also thought it was a tell when he separated the first 21 players from the 22-28 group, implying a huge gap and lack of depth. He's not usually that direct. Reckon he might have a few choice words in SOS' ear about the cheapies making up the numbers.
I also thought it was a tell when he separated the first 21 players from the 22-28 group, implying a huge gap and lack of depth. He's not usually that direct. Reckon he might have a few choice words in SOS' ear about the cheapies making up the numbers.
I can’t be bothered watching it but am curious by what you mean he separated 21 players from 22-28?
I also thought it was a tell when he separated the first 21 players from the 22-28 group, implying a huge gap and lack of depth. He's not usually that direct. Reckon he might have a few choice words in SOS' ear about the cheapies making up the numbers.
What else can we do other than look around for cheap players?
We go to the draft and then try and trade in the best we can get but players like Dangerfield, Franklin and Treloar don't want to come to Carlton so we're left with the dregs.
It won't change until we start winning.
Haven't read the whole thread yet, but my one and only comment on the game...
Us: we were 2/3 roatations down for a lot of the game, so we were beaten by 10 goals
Giants: We were down to NO rotations at the halfway mark of the 3rd quarter, and at times in the final quarter we were down to 16 on the park, so wew were reasonably happy to win the final quarter by 6 goals and the match by 18 goals
How the fecking feck do we lose the final quarter by 6 goals when they were literally down to 16 players at times?
That's not good enough.
At what point can we lose faith?
I can’t be bothered watching it but am curious by what you mean he separated 21 players from 22-28?
What he means is that there is a huge gap between our best 21 or 22 and the next 6 or 7 players (i.e the depth players). He talked about GWS's phenomenal running power in the midfield, and was asked something about whether we would be / needed to address that.
Yes agree. I think it should give pause for thought when he gets criticised for match day tactics. If you want to get your kids to perform to a particular level, you don't set easier tests - you get them to practice and practice at the required level until they learn. It's as ugly as sin to watch, but here's hoping it will hold them in good stead.
I think this is also part of the reason why he refuses to use more than 1 tagger. He could end up being a failure, but there is method in his approach.
As long as we don't kill MORE players, mentally and physically, than what we already have.
These guys need confidence as much as they need anything else. Letting them get drilled by 16 players, by 18 goals is not good for them in any sense.
What else can we do other than look around for cheap players?
We go to the draft and then try and trade in the best we can get but players like Dangerfield, Franklin and Treloar don't want to come to Carlton so we're left with the dregs.
It won't change until we start winning.
I get that. But I think there is a sweet spot between the Treloars of this world and the Mullets, and I'm just wondering if we can become better at identifying them ?
I think we can appreciate that in many ways this is a learning experience.
But we didn't get beaten by GWS today....we got beaten by half of GWS....and in the last quarter about a third of GWS.
Yes, we had significant outs as well but full strength v full strength it would have been a similar result.
The thing is...when they announced this rebuild back in 2015 did anyone expect us to be sitting last with 2 wins at this stage of 2018.
Sure we expected there would be some backward movement...but to this extent?
Injuries...a problem
Not being able to attract experienced quality players...a problem.
Some not developing as quickly as we'd like...also a problem
But problems that should have been foreseen and factored in.
The unexpected will always bite you in the bum.
The time for radical changes is not now...but this season is done and dusted and we need to look at the future in pretty harsh, realistic terms.
2019 needs to be a no excuse year...you go hard or go elsewhere.
Lesson time is over.
It's time for big school.
There is much work to be done and we need to shake this idea that everything will work out fine if we just let the plan roll along.
As long as we don't kill MORE players, mentally and physically, than what we already have.
These guys need confidence as much as they need anything else. Letting them get drilled by 16 players, by 18 goals is not good for them in any sense.
The losses, if they are handled correctly, can hold them in good stead. GWS used to get flogged regularly in their early days.
If they're not handled correctly, then yes, they can cause damage.
And IMO, you and others are focussing on the 1 or 2 player surplus way too much. Having a couple of extra players doesn't suddenly improve our skills, it doesn't mean we now hit targets, it doesn't mean we suddenly have players with 100-150 games under their belts, it doesn't mean we suddenly have battle hardened bodies etc.
GWS and other teams can easily cover two extra players for now.
I cant see anything good coming from that last quarter.
Guys were getting rubbed down on the sidelines while 16 of their teammates were flogging the opposition.
That will be highlighted this week.
It's something the players will have to deal with.
I think we need to be careful with GWS comparisons too.
Their development situation bears no resemblance to ours.
Their draft concessions allowed them to draft the cream of young talent and trade for experienced mature players.
Whatever time it took for them to develop, multiply that by two or three for us if we follow a similar path
GWS were given dollars to buy and trade with...we only have cents.
What else can we do other than look around for cheap players?
We go to the draft and then try and trade in the best we can get but players like Dangerfield, Franklin and Treloar don't want to come to Carlton so we're left with the dregs.
It won't change until we start winning.
I tend to agree B4L. We'd generally only attract players for a limited range of reasons. Such as field or team position, personnel, location, $ etc. I'd guess most players in the trade window not seeking what we're offering are after on field success and will not consider us. See last trade season.
As a result SOS has very limited options. Thus we shop from the recycle bin. As SOS has said, some work out others don't. Some were specifically recruited to protect our young kids in the VFL. We all know what happened to that plan starting with Docherty's acl :(
I get that. But I think there is a sweet spot between the Treloars of this world and the Mullets, and I'm just wondering if we can become better at identifying them ?
The sweet spot spot at the moment is Kennedy and Lang, Mullet was dirt cheap and recruited as insurance only.
The sweet spot will get sweeter as we start winning more games which will happen as this crop of youth matures.
I remember Richmond screaming when Geelong poached Ottens, the wheel turns.
The sweet spot spot at the moment is Kennedy and Lang, Mullet was dirt cheap and recruited as insurance only.
The sweet spot will get sweeter as we start winning more games which will happen as this crop of youth matures.
I remember Richmond screaming when Geelong poached Ottens, the wheel turns.
What we must do in the interim is bid players values up.
If they won’t come to us that’s one thing but giving other clubs cap relief is madness unless we get a great deal.
We need to jump on board with North and make these other clubs pay
The sweet spot spot at the moment is Kennedy and Lang, Mullet was dirt cheap and recruited as insurance only.
The sweet spot will get sweeter as we start winning more games which will happen as this crop of youth matures.
I remember Richmond screaming when Geelong poached Ottens, the wheel turns.
Yes, I guess you're right.
What we must do in the interim is bid players values up.
If they won’t come to us that’s one thing but giving other clubs cap relief is madness unless we get a great deal.
We need to jump on board with North and make these other clubs pay
North have a history of picking up good players cheap, Bell, Sinclair and Pike come to mind, they also generally make astute trades with Hay being one exception.
Shcwass for Grant was a beauty.
They've always been low on resources so they've developed a culture accordingly, Carlton came from the other end of the spectrum and it's something we have struggled with.
Dead set jet.
Whitfield is 24, with 100 games. His first couple of years, people were questioning why he was taken no 1.
Sound familiar???
2 or 3 seasons and hoepfully Dow, OBrien, SPS, Cunningham and a few others are thought of the same
Whitfield is 24, with 100 games. His first couple of years, people were questioning why he was taken no 1.
Sound familiar???
2 or 3 seasons and hoepfully Dow, OBrien, SPS, Cunningham and a few others are thought of the same
Yes, I was probably one of those who couldn't see what the fuss was about. I certainly hope plenty of our boys end up the same or similar.
As has been the past 3. Do you really trust our blokes to get it right? Most of the cr@p traded in over the past 3 years has been a big fail. But wonderful favours to other clubs.
Yes, list shallowness and injuries contribute but the spiritless effort from the start (there have been many this year, actually) suggests bigger problems in other areas.
Maybe im in the minority, but i do trust SOS when he says, we werent trying to recruit any big name players the past 3 years - it has all been about getting kids through the door.
This offseason will be the huge test. We can test the theory that we are no longer a destination club. I am hoping this is media bullsht, and we still are CARLTON, and will get a few big fish
I reckon, internally, the club knew this season would be disasterous, onfield - but you cant really tell the public, can you - not great membership campaign
Yes agree. I think it should give pause for thought when he gets criticised for match day tactics. If you want to get your kids to perform to a particular level, you don't set easier tests - you get them to practice and practice at the required level until they learn. It's as ugly as sin to watch, but here's hoping it will hold them in good stead.
I think this is also part of the reason why he refuses to use more than 1 tagger. He could end up being a failure, but there is method in his approach.
Yep this is also why I thought all season he is not wildly swinging the game plan around.
We are pretty ordinary at what he wants us to do being the issue, and they aren't going to learn how to do it by not doing it.
Whitfield is 24, with 100 games. His first couple of years, people were questioning why he was taken no 1.
I don't recall it that way, Whitfield was a gun from day one, the main question was how Tom Scully could possibly be on bigger money than Whitfield!
For a historical perspective, take a look at the Inside Football AFL Player Ratings archive.
Whitfield's first season;
2013 Season
1 Syd No.1 draft pick didn’t set the world on fire but showed enough. 4
2 Port Looked every bit the No.1 draft pick and impressed all night. 7
3 StK Only two of his 12 touches were kicks but he showed a couple of glimpses. 3
4 Melb Clean, composed and classy with ball in hand. His best outing yet at this level. 7
5 GCS Again showed glimpses of exciting talent. 5
6 (Soreness)
7 Adel Not the worst but was fighting against the tide. 5
8 Haw Most of disposals were handballs. Subbed off in third term. 3
9 WCE For such a young player his poise and decision-making is already first class. 5
10 Carl Good in patches and used the ball well. 6
11 Geel Sub. All class when he came on to grab seven disposals. 2
12 Port Good battle with Broadbent for much of the day. Ball use and smarts stood out. 6
14 NM Class player. When he got it a teammate was on the end of it. 7
15 WB Such a good user of the ball, he also took nine marks. 7
16 Syd Had 12 possessions in first term, but slowed down after that. Plenty to work with. 6
17 Ess A little subdued this week, but his disposal is outstanding for one so young. 4
18 (Rested)
19 Melb Classy performer with two goals, 26 possessions. Showed why he was pick No.1. 8
20 Frem Only one kick in first half and five for the game. Struggled all afternoon. 2
21 Bris First lined-up on Mayes but still had a solid match. Gifted a goal by Cameron. 6
22 (Back)
23 GCS Provided plenty of options running wide and was solid. 5
btw., If we want Whitfield he is gettable, he wants home more than Gaff or Lynch.
Maybe im in the minority, but i do trust SOS when he says, we werent trying to recruit any big name players the past 3 years - it has all been about getting kids through the door.
This offseason will be the huge test. We can test the theory that we are no longer a destination club. I am hoping this is media bullsht, and we still are CARLTON, and will get a few big fish
I reckon, internally, the club knew this season would be disasterous, onfield - but you cant really tell the public, can you - not great membership campaign
Think we had a go at a few big fish like Kelly, Sheil and then last season tried to get mid sized fish Rockliff,Smith, Saad etc and tried for Caddy the previous years when we traded Touhy..so I think SOS might be bending the truth that we didnt try...the money got big and the real big fish said no..
When you are bottom you are not going to be a destination club unless you are paying big overs and recruiting does get hard.......the job is much harder for SOS than his GWS days and having a inexperienced coach doesn't help either..Sheedy I hate with a passion but he was a good salesman and players like Ward, Davis, Heath Shaw, Mumford were nice gets to help build a team, if we had those types we wouldnt be bottom.
Agree you cant sell misery because that wont sell memberships but I think the Carlton supporters are fairly switched on to where we are at and its crossroads in 2019....its what the media sell to the public as a reasonable goal for 2019.....I dont see what the club sell as being as being taken seriously anymore....green shoots, synergies, defined by pressure wont be acceptable in 2019.
Yes, the job's harder, but far from impossible....
I don't recall it that way, Whitfield was a gun from day one, the main question was how Tom Scully could possibly be on bigger money than Whitfield!
For a historical perspective, take a look at the Inside Football AFL Player Ratings archive.
Whitfield's first season;
btw., If we want Whitfield he is gettable, he wants home more than Gaff or Lynch.
Whitfield was soft early and then got himself into trouble avoiding a drug test indicating he was guilty and became less attractive, credit to him though as he has fixed
his career in all areas and would be a great pickup although I could never see him wanting to play for us..
After yesterday injury excuse don't count. That was the most embarrassing thing I've seen in 55 years of watching footy and i'd say our worst ever loss given the circumstances. Despite outnumbering them we had no idea. We'd have spares out wide but kick down the line to an outnumbered situation, how is one outnumbered when your have 1-2 spares I don't know. Then GWS go forward to loose men every where in their forward 50 and kick goals as they please. They had 45 uncontested marks in that last qtr and outscore us 7 goals to 1. How does that happen? This is a side, after 3 years with this bloke, that had no idea,what they were supposed to do, How poorly drilled can a side get? Game plan so confusing, so poor, that we don't even know what to do when we outnumber a side by 2 players. It's not as if GWS are anything like Hawthorn 2013-15, or Geelong 2007-11. They laughed at us. They rotated off the bench still with 16-17 players treating us like incompetent idiots. We still had a number of very good to even a few outstanding young players out there as well as enough senior experience to at the very least stop such embarrassment like yesterday's like qtr happening.That's a Monday morning coach sacking not an end of the year sacking as it is purely incompetent. either that or the players aren't playing for the coach. Going no-where right now. What has been happening for 3 years?
After yesterday injury excuse don't count. That was the most embarrassing thing I've seen in 55 years of watching footy and i'd say our worst ever loss given the circumstances. Despite outnumbering them we had no idea. We'd have spares out wide but kick down the line to an outnumbered situation, how is one outnumbered when your have 1-2 spares I don't know. Then GWS go forward to loose men every where in their forward 50 and kick goals as they please. They had 45 uncontested marks in that last qtr and outscore us 7 goals to 1. How does that happen? This is a side, after 3 years with this bloke, that had no idea,what they were supposed to do, How poorly drilled can a side get? Game plan so confusing, so poor, that we don't even know what to do when we outnumber a side by 2 players. It's not as if GWS are anything like Hawthorn 2013-15, or Geelong 2007-11. They laughed at us. They rotated off the bench still with 16-17 players treating us like incompetent idiots. We still had a number of very good to even a few outstanding young players out there as well as enough senior experience to at the very least stop such embarrassment like yesterday's like qtr happening.That's a Monday morning coach sacking not an end of the year sacking as it is purely incompetent. either that or the players aren't playing for the coach. Going no-where right now. What has been happening for 3 years?
Its not just injuries, its men vs boys stuff.
The blokes that played yesterday have played how many games together all in the same 22? 5? 6? Using Polson as a litmus test, 10?
That GWS team that took the field yesterday had one debutant, playing in a team full of mature players, whom played in a preliminary final last year, and should push seroiusly for the flag, whilst we sit dead last, with a team full of kids, our front 6 barely had 300 games combined (150 of them contributed by one player in Matthew Wright with the next biggest games played by Charlie Curnow who had a quiet night by his standards) all with the result that we got pummelled because our midfield got absolutely torched. we play a man down every week thanks to the kids not being experienced and hard enough to compete for 4 quarters.
They highlighted a play where game number 17 Paddy dow was standing shoulder to shoulder with Josh Kelly whos 5 years older than him, and was on track to break posession records yesterday and all he did was literally read the play better and out position him to run off and score.
These kids we play are going to be guns, but we are sacrificing today for tomorrow's benefit.
Its not just injuries, its men vs boys stuff.
The blokes that played yesterday have played how many games together all in the same 22? 5? 6? Using Polson as a litmus test, 10?
That GWS team that took the field yesterday had one debutant, playing in a team full of mature players, whom played in a preliminary final last year, and should push seroiusly for the flag, whilst we sit dead last, with a team full of kids, our front 6 barely had 300 games combined (150 of them contributed by one player in Matthew Wright with the next biggest games played by Charlie Curnow who had a quiet night by his standards) all with the result that we got pummelled because our midfield got absolutely torched. we play a man down every week thanks to the kids not being experienced and hard enough to compete for 4 quarters.
They highlighted a play where game number 17 Paddy dow was standing shoulder to shoulder with Josh Kelly whos 5 years older than him, and was on track to break posession records yesterday and all he did was literally read the play better and out position him to run off and score.
These kids we play are going to be guns, but we are sacrificing today for tomorrow's benefit.
No spin please. It is AFL after all, not an under 16 competition. They beat us 7 goals to 1 with 16 on the ground in the last qtr. Men v boys doesn't cut it. We had enough senior experience out there still to prevent that bit at least. You accept that then you'd accept anything., It's been poor coaching, pure and simple. We have drafted very well and they will be guns but it's useless without a decent coach to get the best out of them as a unit. How can you not take advantage of that situation? Out structures that poor?
Over the journey of the rebuild we were unbalanced. We cut to deep to quick & the balance of young players & veterans was out of whack, hence why we have a dearth of players in the 24-26 range Add in Gibbs leaving , Doc injury as well as other injuries and they mostly seemed to be the senior players . The "insurance " players eg Mullet O'Shea , Graham etc , where expected to prop up from time to time , but instead they have become the mainstay. I doubt we often had a period especially this last 2 yrs where we have had 80% of the players available on our list at one time. So to build a team featuring so many fillers its difficult to maintain & build confidence , team plans . Add in some mysterious team selection eg Harry , but there are theories as to why he hasnt been out there, there isnt much left to work with. Season is a right off, let the kids learn from their opponents see first hand whats need to play at this level, draw a line under it and the draft time.
No spin please. It is AFL after all, not an under 16 competition. They beat us 7 goals to 1 with 16 on the ground in the last qtr. Men v boys doesn't cut it. We had enough senior experience out there still to prevent that bit at least. You accept that then you'd accept anything., It's been poor coaching, pure and simple. We have drafted very well and they will be guns but it's useless without a decent coach to get the best out of them as a unit. How can you not take advantage of that situation? Out structures that poor?
Well said.
Its not just injuries, its men vs boys stuff.
The blokes that played yesterday have played how many games together all in the same 22? 5? 6? Using Polson as a litmus test, 10?
That GWS team that took the field yesterday had one debutant, playing in a team full of mature players, whom played in a preliminary final last year, and should push seroiusly for the flag, whilst we sit dead last, with a team full of kids, our front 6 barely had 300 games combined (150 of them contributed by one player in Matthew Wright with the next biggest games played by Charlie Curnow who had a quiet night by his standards) all with the result that we got pummelled because our midfield got absolutely torched. we play a man down every week thanks to the kids not being experienced and hard enough to compete for 4 quarters.
They highlighted a play where game number 17 Paddy dow was standing shoulder to shoulder with Josh Kelly whos 5 years older than him, and was on track to break posession records yesterday and all he did was literally read the play better and out position him to run off and score.
These kids we play are going to be guns, but we are sacrificing today for tomorrow's benefit.
Jury is out on our kids being guns...thats the aim but there is nothing concrete at the moment to indicate that apart from Cripps and then potential for Charlie C and maybe Dow to be guns, IMO we gave up in the last quarter and have in a few games where we have been belted........
We play a few men down every week because the mid level tier of players we have is not good enough and that wasnt addressed when we started the rebuild......Paul Roos may not be popular on this forum but he constructed the Melbourne rebuild properly...we have followed the Saints and the results are similar....
The rebuild needs a rebuild...dont need to replace every block this time but we need that mid tier block of players fixed otherwise some kids who might make it wont...the club need to be open, honest and tell the supporters they didnt get it right initially but are going to fix the problems now...
Yes the last quarter was a mess, the difference in class, experience and being 10 goals down has an effect. I hoped we would rally and run them down a bit, wrong....Next 3 games will be used to sort through the players re who gets the chop. With Kruze , maybe on his last legs & Levi showing little , De Koning showing form in the NBs , Harry more consistant in his games , it might change the thoughts re what we do with the number one pick. Keep it and go for the big guy. We talk about mids but our talls are a big problem. There is a lot to play for in the last 3 games from a player point of view.
Yes the last quarter was a mess, the difference in class, experience and being 10 goals down has an effect. I hoped we would rally and run them down a bit, wrong....Next 3 games will be used to sort through the players re who gets the chop. With Kruze , maybe on his last legs & Levi showing little , De Koning showing form in the NBs , Harry more consistant in his games , it might change the thoughts re what we do with the number one pick. Keep it and go for the big guy. We talk about mids but our talls are a big problem. There is a lot to play for in the last 3 games from a player point of view.
That's one "effect" we can't excuse when the other side totally smashes us playing up to 2 short. You have to ask why it was such a smashing. No side should be that poorly drilled that they keep kicking down the line to outnumbered situations, even with 16 v 18, when there are obvious spares elsewhere. No side should be that poorly drilled that an outnumbered side can have loose men everywhere in their 50 and kick goals as they feel like. No side should be that poorly drilled that they allow an outnumbered side to take 45 uncontested marks and get 53 more disposals in that last qtr. you have to ask questions not make excuses for that. Can only come down to coaching. We're talking 7 goals to 1, not 3 goals to 2 and something more even at the very least around the ground.
Our blokes are playing for nothing, GWS are playing for the Top 4, that's about the sum of it!
Clubs that make calls on coaches at this time of the year won't do so on the latest result, they look at the whole season.
There is nothing BB or any coach can do when the players are just marking time to Rnd 23, all we will get is the odd highlight.
The problem is exacerbated because we have so few players coming out of contract. Do you think it's an accident Daisy and Simmo are playing well, both are due for renewal?
That's one "effect" we can't excuse when the other side totally smashes us playing up to 2 short. You have to ask why it was such a smashing. No side should be that poorly drilled that they keep kicking down the line to outnumbered situations, even with 16 v 18, when there are obvious spares elsewhere. No side should be that poorly drilled that an outnumbered side can have loose men everywhere in their 50 and kick goals as they feel like. No side should be that poorly drilled that they allow an outnumbered side to take 45 uncontested marks and get 53 more disposals in that last qtr. you have to ask questions not make excuses for that. Can only come down to coaching. We're talking 7 goals to 1, not 3 goals to 2 and something more even at the very least around the ground.
Spot on.
The coach has to take responsibility, yesterday was unacceptable.
Jury is out on our kids being guns...thats the aim but there is nothing concrete at the moment to indicate that apart from Cripps and then potential for Charlie C and maybe Dow to be guns, IMO we gave up in the last quarter and have in a few games where we have been belted........
We play a few men down every week because the mid level tier of players we have is not good enough and that wasnt addressed when we started the rebuild......Paul Roos may not be popular on this forum but he constructed the Melbourne rebuild properly...we have followed the Saints and the results are similar....
The rebuild needs a rebuild...dont need to replace every block this time but we need that mid tier block of players fixed otherwise some kids who might make it wont...the club need to be open, honest and tell the supporters they didnt get it right initially but are going to fix the problems now...
I know that EB1, I was talking about GWS being full of guns. They have the most draft picks in the top tier hitting their straps together, whilst we are just a team of kids.
Lachie O Brien has played more games than he should have this season, and yesterday showed why. He had almost zero idea how to beat his opponent (Tomlinson) who even if they were similar games experienced and seasoned (they are 5 years apart at minimum) and he is giving away a whole foot, and probably about 20kgs to go with it. Instead of changing that matchup (lets face it, O Brien didnt have another one anyway) he let him get an education.
As for the last quarter, we have played one poor one in every game this year, I don't see the point in singling out a quarter where we could barely get our hands on the footy even if the opposition was playing a man down. It just made the numbers even, but we are that out manned at the moment, I don't see the point of even looking at it. Its embarrassing and it hurts, but it isnt a coaching problem, when half your side can't compete with a side sitting in the top 4. Thats a personnell issue.
I’m conflicted about the coach being responsible. We’ve all been wondering for years why it seems like the other side has extra men on the ground around the ball. Lazy? Poor aerobic capacity? Not accountable? Nonsensical coaching instructions? Probably all of the above in varying degrees.
One is reminded of Ming the Merciless’ quote from Flash Gordon. As Flash is handing out a beating to Ming’s bodyguards Ming turns to his lieutenant and asks, “Are your men on the right pills?”
I walked away in awe of GWS yesterday. The running power and structured ball movement was breath taking at times.
Its a real shame they don't play in front of a good crowd every week. I really hope they win it.
It was eerily quiet so you could hear the players yelling and umpires clearly most of the afternoon.
My 7 year old went home and re watched the Gold Coast replay to make him feel better.
I have no answers and wasnt aware of the 16 GWS players only on the ground but it didnt matter because our players just didnt man up.
Unfortunately our Captain is normally the number one culprit so at the very least a change in leadership is paramount.
We played like everyone just wants the season to end.
I walked away in awe of GWS yesterday. The running power and structured ball movement was breath taking at times.
Its a real shame they don't play in front of a good crowd every week. I really hope they win it.
Lots of us have said, long term relative to us and our rebuild GWS are the real enemy.
GWS are the list that is most likely to dominate the next decade.
Totally agree with your post. Absolutely no justification for Bolton to hold his job as senior coach of the Carlton Football Club after that.
No spin please. It is AFL after all, not an under 16 competition. They beat us 7 goals to 1 with 16 on the ground in the last qtr. Men v boys doesn't cut it. We had enough senior experience out there still to prevent that bit at least. You accept that then you'd accept anything., It's been poor coaching, pure and simple. We have drafted very well and they will be guns but it's useless without a decent coach to get the best out of them as a unit. How can you not take advantage of that situation? Out structures that poor?
That' right Laj, you are totally correct! It's all spin. We are terrible and the appointment of Bolton is ridiculous. Barker too. Lugidice can not see it. I can.
once again i hope our recruiters watch that game and relise wat our list needs and our coaching dept look and learn wat a modern game plan looks like.
I walked away in awe of GWS yesterday. The running power and structured ball movement was breath taking at times.
Its a real shame they don't play in front of a good crowd every week. I really hope they win it.
It was eerily quiet so you could hear the players yelling and umpires clearly most of the afternoon.
My 7 year old went home and re watched the Gold Coast replay to make him feel better.
I have no answers and wasnt aware of the 16 GWS players only on the ground but it didnt matter because our players just didnt man up.
Unfortunately our Captain is normally the number one culprit so at the very least a change in leadership is paramount.
We played like everyone just wants the season to end.
Yes, GWS was too big, too fast, too strong and too well drilled. I was concerned at the start of the game when Murphy lined up on Lobb ????
I don’t think I realised just how good GWS is, and how good they could become. Richmond aren’t quite the premiership favourites I thought.
I know that EB1, I was talking about GWS being full of guns. They have the most draft picks in the top tier hitting their straps together, whilst we are just a team of kids.
Lachie O Brien has played more games than he should have this season, and yesterday showed why. He had almost zero idea how to beat his opponent (Tomlinson) who even if they were similar games experienced and seasoned (they are 5 years apart at minimum) and he is giving away a whole foot, and probably about 20kgs to go with it. Instead of changing that matchup (lets face it, O Brien didnt have another one anyway) he let him get an education.
As for the last quarter, we have played one poor one in every game this year, I don't see the point in singling out a quarter where we could barely get our hands on the footy even if the opposition was playing a man down. It just made the numbers even, but we are that out manned at the moment, I don't see the point of even looking at it. Its embarrassing and it hurts, but it isnt a coaching problem, when half your side can't compete with a side sitting in the top 4. Thats a personnell issue.
Apologies Thry if I misread your comments....agree on your Obrien thoughts, I didnt even comment on him because that matchup was so heavily weighted to the GWS player, that wasnt a learning experience that was fighting out of your division.....interesting how GWS and Richmond(McIntosh) have reverted to the old fashioned tall winger.
Last quarter I agree....more the lack of effort from our players than Boltons coaching, we didnt have the equipment to compete and Cameron on the other hand had exactly what he needed to bury us with Ward on Cripps and Kelly all over our best tagger in Ed Curnow, wasnt much Bolton could do but ask for effort......
Apologies Thry if I misread your comments....agree on your Obrien thoughts, I didnt even comment on him because that matchup was so heavily weighted to the GWS player, that wasnt a learning experience that was fighting out of your division.....interesting how GWS and Richmond(McIntosh) have reverted to the old fashioned tall winger.
Last quarter I agree....more the lack of effort from our players than Boltons coaching, we didnt have the equipment to compete and Cameron on the other hand had exactly what he needed to bury us with Ward on Cripps and Kelly all over our best tagger in Ed Curnow, wasnt much Bolton could do but ask for effort......
The lack of effort is unfortunately coaching too. This is happening so often you wonder if he has the players. Either way he can't hang around otherwise we'll just continue to see a lack of effort as we did under Pagan and Malthouse.
16 v 18, no excuse if you can't take advantage of that.
Q. How many Cam O'Shea's does it take to change a light bulb ?
A. One Josh Kelly.
The lack of effort is unfortunately coaching too. This is happening so often you wonder if he has the players. Either way he can't hang around otherwise we'll just continue to see a lack of effort as we did under Pagan and Malthouse.
16 v 18, no excuse if you can't take advantage of that.
So Jim..when would you start Blake Caracella? :)
So Jim..when would you start Blake Caracella? :)
Soon as the season ends.
Also wouldn't mind seeing Ratts work with SOS too rather than that dud Wayne Hughes, which hamstrung him.
Yesterday was either one of a poorly drilled football side or a lack of effort yet again for the umpteenth time. Both are indictments on the coaching. I'd say yesterday was both suggesting to me that we are wasting our time if Bolts is our coach next year.
Apologies Thry if I misread your comments....agree on your Obrien thoughts, I didnt even comment on him because that matchup was so heavily weighted to the GWS player, that wasnt a learning experience that was fighting out of your division.....interesting how GWS and Richmond(McIntosh) have reverted to the old fashioned tall winger.
We've blokes like Marchbank, Macreadie and Schumacher who should slip into that role in coming seasons. I suppose we'd hoped someone like Byrne would put his hand up for a gig but it's never happened. I have no idea why we aren't running Marchbank on the wing, or why we never gave Jones a crack while he was available! We tried poor SoJ there and they run him into the ground! It's like we are punishing ourselves so that we get better, it's all a bit too much Naughty Boy Self-flagellation for my liking!
Last quarter I agree....more the lack of effort from our players than Boltons coaching, we didnt have the equipment to compete and Cameron on the other hand had exactly what he needed to bury us with Ward on Cripps and Kelly all over our best tagger in Ed Curnow, wasnt much Bolton could do but ask for effort......
That's about the sum of it, really it was mostly men versus boys, with the only men we had out there pretty much unable to keep up!
Assuming Weitering doesn't come up.
Play Kerr or De Konig from the square as a stay at home target to keep the defence honest and keep at least one defender deep. Play a small at his feet to keep the FB nervous about spoiling. Run Harry and Chuck higher up the ground, run their tall backs around and blow them up. Schumacher and MacCreadie wing/HB. Maybe even Pickett in that role.
There's more run already. Bugger o'shea off (5 disposals, all clangers) and we might even get the odd ball from defence without it coming back faster than it came out.
Give OBrien a week off. Looks buggered and hence ineffective. Tell Lang to get serious inside and replace Graham, who played the "is he even playing? " role on Sunday
That's three replacements already.
Somebody needs to clamp down on Neale and we can't let their half backs and running defenders have a party.. Polson, Garlett, Wright should aim for a minimum of 6 stuck tackles each
Finally, Play with some bloody intent.
Being at the game it did not seem like there was that much in it for the second and third quarters.
We then capitulated in the fourth which is just understandable considering where we are, the inexperience on the field and fact many aren’t up to running out a season yet anyway and...
Bonar, in his first game, had no trouble impacting and running out the game, but our kids like O'Brien didn't. Either our kids are crap (a theory) or the season has caught up with them and they're stuffed.
We played like everyone just wants the season to end.
Good pick up. Those of us watching here on the teev yesterday thought the same thing... from the very get go, and we just shook our heads.
Bonar, in his first game, had no trouble impacting and running out the game, but our kids like O'Brien didn't. Either our kids are crap (a theory) or the season has caught up with them and they're stuffed.
Bonar is a more physically developed player, he is a readymade.....OBrien, Polson etc are little auskickers in comparison...
You look at Melbourne and Roos/Goodwin were clear that they wanted bigger mids like Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw etc....if you are rebuilding you need to start with more readymade kids, you look at Stkilda and its the same story as us ..too many small lighter players in the middle of the ground.
Assuming Weitering doesn't come up.
Play Kerr or De Konig from the square as a stay at home target to keep the defence honest and keep at least one defender deep. Play a small at his feet to keep the FB nervous about spoiling. Run Harry and Chuck higher up the ground, run their tall backs around and blow them up. Schumacher and MacCreadie wing/HB. Maybe even Pickett in that role.
There's more run already. Bugger o'shea off (5 disposals, all clangers) and we might even get the odd ball from defence without it coming back faster than it came out.
Give OBrien a week off. Looks buggered and hence ineffective. Tell Lang to get serious inside and replace Graham, who played the "is he even playing? " role on Sunday
That's three replacements already.
Somebody needs to clamp down on Neale and we can't let their half backs and running defenders have a party.. Polson, Garlett, Wright should aim for a minimum of 6 stuck tackles each
Finally, Play with some bloody intent.
I just hope we dont do something stupid like start Polson on Walters...
Good pick up. Those of us watching here on the teev yesterday thought the same thing... from the very get go, and we just shook our heads.
Those 2 gimmie misses by Curnow and McKay in the first quarter set the scene. 15846 heads dropped in the stands (I’ll give GWS a couple of hundred supporters) and 22 on the field. A 5 to 1 first quarter should have been 5:3. Those misses were coach and crowd killers.
Collier-Dawkins, Hately, Valente or Smith EB?
Hately might be ready made and matching it in the SANFL but I wonder how much upside. You thought his kicking was iffy as well.
Those 2 gimmie misses by Curnow and McKay in the first quarter set the scene. 15846 heads dropped in the stands (I’ll give GWS a couple of hundred supporters) and 22 on the field. A 5 to 1 first quarter should have been 5:3. Those misses were coach and crowd killers.
Spot on TC. I summarised it like this, they kicked them from everywhere, we missed from almost directly in front.
Spot on TC. I summarised it like this, they kicked them from everywhere, we missed from almost directly in front.
Coach's fault. He should issue a mea culpa asap.
Bonar, in his first game, had no trouble impacting and running out the game, but our kids like O'Brien didn't. Either our kids are crap (a theory) or the season has caught up with them and they're stuffed.
Bonar looks like he's ready to go. However, he really was the only GWS debutante and was surrounded by a lot more talent and experience than our newbies.
For them record, Bonar spent 79% of the game on the ground and that was probably more than was planned for. Of our newbies, Charlie played 89%, Harry 85% (admirable given that he played key forward and back up ruck), Polson 82%, Samo 78%, Dow 77%, Pickett 72% and O'Brien 68%. Byrne, with limited match fitness, played 79%. I suspect that they are all spending a lot more time on the ground than they should be.
Concerned about LOB given his elite running background. Only 68 percent game time and looking to have heavy legs from the start. Recovery from the Suns game?
Concerned about LOB given his elite running background. Only 68 percent game time and looking to have heavy legs from the start. Recovery from the Suns game?
I suspect that he would have been out "managed" if we had anyone else. I guess it's character building if you follow the "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" line.
Concerned about LOB given his elite running background. Only 68 percent game time and looking to have heavy legs from the start. Recovery from the Suns game?
It's been a long year for him and Dow on the back of a very limited pre-season.
Probably starting to feel the effects.
I suspect that he would have been out "managed" if we had anyone else. I guess it's character building if you follow the "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" line.
Didn't Custer say that to his men at Little Big Horn? Or maybe it was "they'll never hit us at this ran..........". ;)
Collier-Dawkins, Hately, Valente or Smith EB?
Hately might be ready made and matching it in the SANFL but I wonder how much upside. You thought his kicking was iffy as well.
Prof..I like Collier-Dawkins and Smith......Hately gets a lot of ball but his kicking isnt great IMO.........Valente is very neat but doesnt have any real weapons.
Collier-Dawkins is the one I would pick but Smith probably is a more standout player because of his pace and goal kicking ability.....
CD is 193cm and charges through packs, kicking is good and he can stand up in tackles and still deliver the footy, can also play forward....not slow for a player his size either...
SOS would probably take Smith IMO...
Didn't Custer say that to his men at Little Big Horn? Or maybe it was "they'll never hit us at this ran..........". ;)
I should know that Cookie, having spent some time with Lakota people at Wounded Knee and the Black Hills (although they weren't too fussed about what Custer may or may not have said!). I suspect that it was more along the lines of "Where the f**k did these c***ts come from?" or perhaps, "I should have paid more attention to basic cavalry tactics."
Kelly Clarkson (related to the Angry Ant?) sang about it but, apparently, Friedrich Nietzsche is to blame and his words are translated as “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Nietzsche..the fascists favourite. ;)
Actually some of his quotes are pretty relevant to our situation
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.
Nietzsche..the fascists favourite. ;)
Actually some of his quotes are pretty relevant to our situation
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.
This is where we need a "like" tab :)
Nietzsche..the fascists favourite. ;)
Actually some of his quotes are pretty relevant to our situation
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering.
Actually, neither Nietzsche nor his writings were of interest to the Nazis or any other similar organisation. His sister Elizabeth twisted and forged his work to give them a level of acceptability to such groups.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/7018535/Criminal-manipulation-of-Nietzsche-by-sister-to-make-him-look-anti-Semitic.html
I should know that Cookie, having spent some time with Lakota people at Wounded Knee and the Black Hills (although they weren't too fussed about what Custer may or may not have said!). I suspect that it was more along the lines of "Where the f**k did these c***ts come from?" or perhaps, "I should have paid more attention to basic cavalry tactics."
Kelly Clarkson (related to the Angry Ant?) sang about it but, apparently, Friedrich Nietzsche is to blame and his words are translated as “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
Didn't he have some success at FF for the Dees? Oh no, that was David Neitz, apologies. :)
Wilhelm Friedrich Nietzsche:
"Was mich nicht umbringt, macht mich stärker." from 'Twilight of the Idols').
Translated better: “That which does not destroy me, makes me stronger.”
So we should be damn strong soon!
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Original: Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein. Beyond Good and Evil
I'm afraid that is us. We've looked too long at those below, so we have become them. :(
Thanks Crash, of making something sensible from the bewildering array of gibberish that Nietzsche promulgated.
Does he who minds gorillas become a gorilla? ???
Does he who minds gorillas become a gorilla? ???
It depends on whether the gorillas rip the minder's arms off. Keeping your arms is a positive :)
It depends on whether the gorillas rip the minder's arms off. Keeping your arms is a positive :)
So the gorilla's objective would be to render the minder armless?
So the gorilla's objective would be to render the minder armless?
Once again, we need a "like" button! :)
Does he who minds gorillas become a gorilla? ???
Yes, and we are all hoping Weitering stares long and deep!
Quid Pro Quo Clarice!
Does he who minds gorillas become a gorilla? ???
In thought, perhaps, unless there is access to genetic modification.
I can’t be bothered watching it but am curious by what you mean he separated 21 players from 22-28?
Essentially means that 21 fit minus 14 injuries = cupboard bare
Think we had a go at a few big fish like Kelly, Sheil and then last season tried to get mid sized fish Rockliff,Smith, Saad etc and tried for Caddy the previous years when we traded Touhy..so I think SOS might be bending the truth that we didnt try...the money got big and the real big fish said no..
When you are bottom you are not going to be a destination club unless you are paying big overs and recruiting does get hard.......the job is much harder for SOS than his GWS days and having a inexperienced coach doesn't help either..Sheedy I hate with a passion but he was a good salesman and players like Ward, Davis, Heath Shaw, Mumford were nice gets to help build a team, if we had those types we wouldnt be bottom.
Agree you cant sell misery because that wont sell memberships but I think the Carlton supporters are fairly switched on to where we are at and its crossroads in 2019....its what the media sell to the public as a reasonable goal for 2019.....I dont see what the club sell as being as being taken seriously anymore....green shoots, synergies, defined by pressure wont be acceptable in 2019.
I’m sure there are guys who don’t want to come and put in any hard yards, and you know what ? Good luck to them... but I’d be looking for the guys that are prepared to work and strive.
Who wants to run around with The two Paddy’s ? Who wants to deliver to Big H or Charlie for the next 10 years ?
Come and achieve greatness boys...
I’m sure there are guys who don’t want to come and put in any hard yards, and you know what ? Good luck to them... but I’d be looking for the guys that are prepared to work and strive.
Who wants to run around with The two Paddy’s ? Who wants to deliver to Big H or Charlie for the next 10 years ?
Come and achieve greatness boys...
I think that's the line that the club needs to sell to prospective players alright. Let's hope our sales staff are up to it and we score some quality talent! As EB states, 2019 will be critical and we just have to get set up for it this year in the drafts and trades.
The kids aren't letting the club down, it's the middle tier of blokes who have been decidedly underwhelming. Aside from Wright and Daisy (after three poor years mind you) the club has received nothing from this demographic.
The kids aren't letting the club down, it's the middle tier of blokes who have been decidedly underwhelming. Aside from Wright and Daisy (after three poor years mind you) the club has received nothing from this demographic.
Agree..when the rebuild started we failed to address the middle tier like Paul Roos suggested and we have been caught out and now have to make that the priority at trade/draft time.
Its set us back a couple of years and we are in the same boat as Stkilda who did the same thing.....the bunnies we brought in at the last minute like OShea, Mullett, Shaw etc are useless and
Lang/Kennedy wont cut it vs class like what GWS have on the field...
We need better quality mid tier players as well not rubbish castoffs who think we are a easy place to get a game.....
Looks like we are going to have plenty of competition too...http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-08-07/bombers-prepared-to-hit-trade-period-again
The kids aren't letting the club down, it's the middle tier of blokes who have been decidedly underwhelming. Aside from Wright and Daisy (after three poor years mind you) the club has received nothing from this demographic.
Post 100% nailed it!
Our rebuild would look very different if we managed to get some decent output from the likes of mature pick ups such as Mullett, Garlett, Phillips, Shaw, O'shea, ASOS, Pickett and this years Kennedy, Lang and Lobbe....sadly doesn't end there add in ones that are no longer on list like Sumner, Palmer, Smedts, Gorridge. OMG this is sad.
I think the kids are on track but the trading of mature age players is awful and a big reason we are so heavily exposed until more games are into the kids.
Marchbank and Plowman are 2 ticks in the Bolten era with Kerridge a pass as well IMO. Lang, Kennedy and Lobbe deserve another season before rating accurately but still haven't set the world on fire in what we have seen so far regardless of excuses.
Not a great average and something that this draft can afford another lot of mature cloggers.
Post 100% nailed it!
Our rebuild would look very different if we managed to get some decent output from the likes of mature pick ups such as Mullett, Garlett, Phillips, Shaw, O'shea, ASOS, Pickett and this years Kennedy, Lang and Lobbe....sadly doesn't end there add in ones that are no longer on list like Sumner, Palmer, Smedts, Gorridge. OMG this is sad.
I think the kids are on track but the trading of mature age players is awful and a big reason we are so heavily exposed until more games are into the kids.
Marchbank and Plowman are 2 ticks in the Bolten era with Kerridge a pass as well IMO. Lang, Kennedy and Lobbe deserve another season before rating accurately but still haven't set the world on fire in what we have seen so far regardless of excuses.
Not a great average and something that this draft can afford another lot of mature cloggers.
Absolutely correct. Abysmal effort from the club and a huge fail.
Post 100% nailed it!
Our rebuild would look very different if we managed to get some decent output from the likes of mature pick ups such as Mullett, Garlett, Phillips, Shaw, O'shea, ASOS, Pickett and this years Kennedy, Lang and Lobbe....sadly doesn't end there add in ones that are no longer on list like Sumner, Palmer, Smedts, Gorridge. OMG this is sad.
I think the kids are on track but the trading of mature age players is awful and a big reason we are so heavily exposed until more games are into the kids.
Marchbank and Plowman are 2 ticks in the Bolten era with Kerridge a pass as well IMO. Lang, Kennedy and Lobbe deserve another season before rating accurately but still haven't set the world on fire in what we have seen so far regardless of excuses.
Not a great average and something that this draft can afford another lot of mature cloggers.
Indeed. It is not wrong to want some experienced players to build a team around, but many of these guys have not performed as we would hope.
Mullett:
Mullett hasn't been a success. Granted he was only selected because we needed an experienced player as a back-up, but he doesn't do what we need on the field.
This one is a definite fail.
Garlett:
Early in the season Garlett looked like being a big win. However, his recent form and effort has been substandard: the intensity has gone, the tackling pressure has gone, the run has gone and the shots on goal have gone. I won't right him off yet, and he cost us next to nothing, but he is going to have to show a lot more to be a long term senior player.
Looking like a fail.
Phillips:
Phillips was a speculative pick as much as anything. He needed to have a consistent time at senior level to see if we was going to be the answer. However, he has struggled to remain on the field. Injuries have really held him back.
At this point his future with us is looking questionable, but that is not the fault of poor recruiting.
Maybe not a fail, but not the success we were hoping for.
Shaw:
Shaw may get another year, but if he does, he will be taking a spot a kid with potential would preferentially occupy. Shaw has not been able to dominate at VFL level, although he has been solid. I am not sure exactly what the club saw in him.
Fail
O'Shea:
O'Shea has really disappointed me. He was so good in the VFL last year that it was a no-brainer to give him a senior chance. Even then, he was selected as a back-up for younger players. However, with our injuries we have needed O'Shea to stand up and he hasn't been able to. Nor has he been able to show anything like the form in the VFL, on the rare occasion that he has been available.
O'Shea does have some positives: he tries to do a job, he works at his game and he is persistent. He is a good role model on the training track. He is just not looking like he has what is required to be a significant contributor at senior level.
Alas, O'Shea has to be a fail.
Alex Silvagni:
Like Phillips, Silvagni was chosen as a bit of speculation to be a role model for our young defenders. In that area he has been a massive success. He has also been a huge success when he has managed to get onto the field. But injuries have simply ruined him. He can't get on the park.
Silvagni may well be offered an off field position, as he is highly respected.
I am glad we selected him, even thought I was sceptical at the start. Injuries have robbed us of exactly the player we have needed.
Pickett:
Pickett was another cheap, speculative pick and one that might work out yet. His best has been extremely promising. But he has not often produced his best, mostly due to injuries. Like a couple of others, I wouldn't discard Pickett yet, but he does need time in the VFL to work on his fitness and touch.
Not a total fail yet, but not looking the way we would have preferred.
Kennedy:
Kennedy is quite a young player. I would think of discarding him yet. However, he does not appear to be the solid bodied mid we need yet. He has been very slow and his kicking has been erratic.
Looks like a fail.
Lang:
Honestly, I don't know why the club were so keen on him. Yes, he has some pace and his kicking for goal is quite good, but he has shown no intensity so far. He appears to have no defensive side at all and does not contribute on the inside. I'm willing to give him some benefit because of his injuries, but I really want to see some intensity and desire.
Looking seriously like a fail.
Lobbe:
The kids aren't letting the club down, it's the middle tier of blokes who have been decidedly underwhelming. Aside from Wright and Daisy (after three poor years mind you) the club has received nothing from this demographic.
Got it in one Prof. This area will need some serious attention this year to better support the kids we already have and any more we bring in. List cloggers will not cut it!
Kennedy, Lang, Pickett - too early to call. Need to get a full pre season into them and see some durability, get a decent number of games into them.
Kennedy - born April 1997 (21yo) - 31 games
Lang - born Nov 1995 (22yo) - 52 games
Pickett - born Aug 1996 (almost 22) - 16 games
Garlett - born May 1996 (22) - 28 games
Everyone says you need 50-75 games under your bely before (as an average) you start hitting your straps....
You'd think at minimum 2 of the 4 will be regular first 22 players?
Makes me laugh about who clubs bring in and the flush of hope offered by recruits in trade week. Mature players with issues rarely suddenly change and dramatically improve....cue Port. Fringe players don't become A-graders.
What's the saying, class is permanent and form is temporary? Buy quality not hope for quality.
Of course the flip side to all this is the mature players we traded out in order to try improve the number and quality of what we could bring in... Touhy and Gibbs rarely missed games.
We are not as bad as some think.
Makes me laugh about who clubs bring in and the flush of hope offered by recruits in trade week. Mature players with issues rarely suddenly change and dramatically improve....cue Port. Fringe players don't become A-graders.
What's the saying, class is permanent and form is temporary? Buy quality not hope for quality.
Yep. Bringing in the cheapies is a "triumph of hope over experience" as Oscar Wilde once said.
Makes me laugh about who clubs bring in and the flush of hope offered by recruits in trade week. Mature players with issues rarely suddenly change and dramatically improve....cue Port. Fringe players don't become A-graders.
What's the saying, class is permanent and form is temporary? Buy quality not hope for quality.
It works both ways I think.
Some fans confuse a period of poor form with a lack of long term class, talking about players like Weitering, Dow, SPS, etc., etc..
Some fans confuse a period of good form with legitimate long term class, players like Casboult, Jones, Kerridge, Graham, etc., etc..
It seems to be related to longevity at the club, like it's a prayer of some sort, "They'll come good", "I told you they'd come good!", etc., etc..!
I worry about some of the blokes we have traded for recently, which category they will eventually fall in!
And we have come full circle again.
We have gone from trading out to mature aged players to get first round draft picks in, to becoming impatient for those kids to kick on and become players, and wanting to bring in mature aged players, to play at the expense of the kids and calling the club a huge fail.
News flash, we are where we were in 2015, exactly and have done a hell of a lot to renew the list, to setup us up for the NEXT 5 years, not the past 3.
Sure we wanted better out of our players, but the reality is, we got exactly what we were asking for and at very least this time we are going to finish bottom young with promise for the future, rather than old and wondering where our next tier of talent will come from.
As for not setting up properly, I would love to know what everyone's sweet spot of age vs inexperience is. Its very easy to pot the club, but we have been minus Sam Docherty all season, and his backup all have either been injured or not up to it.
As for Cam O'shea, don't look solely at what he has done for our seniors this year. In future, players will come play in the Northern Blues, with the hope to replicate what he managed to do and that was restart his AFL career. He has had plenty of opportunity and not taken it, but others will see it and hope they can do similar, and its for that reason, he should get one more year on the list, as insurance and to play VFL footy.
Sometimes we undervalue what people can do for us, and we as a footy club have been guilty of that sin for the last 20 years.
Indeed. It is not wrong to want some experienced players to build a team around, but many of these guys have not performed as we would hope.
Mullett:
Mullett hasn't been a success. Granted he was only selected because we needed an experienced player as a back-up, but he doesn't do what we need on the field.
This one is a definite fail.
Garlett:
Early in the season Garlett looked like being a big win. However, his recent form and effort has been substandard: the intensity has gone, the tackling pressure has gone, the run has gone and the shots on goal have gone. I won't right him off yet, and he cost us next to nothing, but he is going to have to show a lot more to be a long term senior player.
Looking like a fail.
Phillips:
Phillips was a speculative pick as much as anything. He needed to have a consistent time at senior level to see if we was going to be the answer. However, he has struggled to remain on the field. Injuries have really held him back.
At this point his future with us is looking questionable, but that is not the fault of poor recruiting.
Maybe not a fail, but not the success we were hoping for.
Shaw:
Shaw may get another year, but if he does, he will be taking a spot a kid with potential would preferentially occupy. Shaw has not been able to dominate at VFL level, although he has been solid. I am not sure exactly what the club saw in him.
Fail
O'Shea:
O'Shea has really disappointed me. He was so good in the VFL last year that it was a no-brainer to give him a senior chance. Even then, he was selected as a back-up for younger players. However, with our injuries we have needed O'Shea to stand up and he hasn't been able to. Nor has he been able to show anything like the form in the VFL, on the rare occasion that he has been available.
O'Shea does have some positives: he tries to do a job, he works at his game and he is persistent. He is a good role model on the training track. He is just not looking like he has what is required to be a significant contributor at senior level.
Alas, O'Shea has to be a fail.
Alex Silvagni:
Like Phillips, Silvagni was chosen as a bit of speculation to be a role model for our young defenders. In that area he has been a massive success. He has also been a huge success when he has managed to get onto the field. But injuries have simply ruined him. He can't get on the park.
Silvagni may well be offered an off field position, as he is highly respected.
I am glad we selected him, even thought I was sceptical at the start. Injuries have robbed us of exactly the player we have needed.
Pickett:
Pickett was another cheap, speculative pick and one that might work out yet. His best has been extremely promising. But he has not often produced his best, mostly due to injuries. Like a couple of others, I wouldn't discard Pickett yet, but he does need time in the VFL to work on his fitness and touch.
Not a total fail yet, but not looking the way we would have preferred.
Kennedy:
Kennedy is quite a young player. I would think of discarding him yet. However, he does not appear to be the solid bodied mid we need yet. He has been very slow and his kicking has been erratic.
Looks like a fail.
Lang:
Honestly, I don't know why the club were so keen on him. Yes, he has some pace and his kicking for goal is quite good, but he has shown no intensity so far. He appears to have no defensive side at all and does not contribute on the inside. I'm willing to give him some benefit because of his injuries, but I really want to see some intensity and desire.
Looking seriously like a fail.
Lobbe:
Some I disagree with.
Kennedy a fail? Wouldn't think so. He's kicked on quite a bit since his injuries and has allowed Cripps to go forward more. See more next year when he is properly fit.
Phillips was a steak knife pick up so we've done ok in regards to him being a back up ruck.
Lang played decent footy at Geelong. Can't be judged here until he is fit. If he comes here and goes backwards then questions have to asked of us, not him but we'll wait until he is fit.
We actually pick some blokes to mainly play VFL providing experience, size and some leadership. Injuries had some playing more than we would like. Suppose it happens when you're on the bottom as attracting stars are hard work.
The media label us a push over team, an embarrassment apparently, uncompetitive.
Yet week after week the toll mounts for the teams that play against, the toll of post-Carlton injuries just grows and grows!