Carlton Supporters Club

Let's hope we have a real party and not a wake.

Lets’s Go!

We had enough of the ball, just didn't couldn't get it inside 50 anywhere near enough. And 49 tackles - we couldn't really get our hands on them.

Still, 16th playing the premiers - that's much better than I was expecting.

Broken tackles killed us

look, it was encouraging, better than last year, steps in the right direction....

but tonight, we had better treatment from the umps, they missed alot,
a few players got found out, young list, early days, next match will tell

And we lost Kennedy early. What's the latest on his injury?

ps didn't see much of the game at all....

And we lost Kennedy early. What's the latest on his injury?

ps didn't see much of the game at all....

Ankle, possibly good for next week.

Let's not forget the Tigers final series last year, the GF, plus the recent JLT series. A fair effort from us to be that close against clearly superior opposition.

Losing players to rotate was always going to make the last quarter hard.

Not bad effort, and we managed to score but a few passengers too many. Felt our back line was too tall which is hard against Richmond that have pace and pressure. Our half back ball movement is missing docherty already.

Still, a lot to like and we will win games this year as we move the ball quicker
 Casboult's days are numbered, but not sure if McKay can be much of a replacement for a ruck chop out.

Umpiring was the usual mess of too many cooks.

So, all in all, with one man down for most of the game and Kreuzer nobbled for a big chunk.....pretty brave effort?

Watching the game on delay on Foxtel, recording finished with 5 minutes to go.
We looked much better at times but we blew a 29 point head start and got done by 26. Some of our blokes looked pretty bad. Unfortunately the good ones weren't able to carry them.
Poor Dow. What a game/night to make your debut.
If we lose Kreuzer we might as well pack up. Sorry Jm, you were trying to pump Levi's tyres in the in game thread but he wasn't up to it, at all. I guess not really his fault thrown in to the ruck full time, but really, he was worse when playing forward.
I hope we get better during the season. We could have lost by a hundred if they kicked straight.
BTW the AFL have seriously jumped the shark with regards to rules. Those 50m frees tonight were a tad embarrassing.

So, all in all, with one man down for most of the game and Kreuzer nobbled for a big chunk.....pretty brave effort?

Yep. We did ok against a much stronger team and pretty much did not fall in a heap. Could not have expected much more imo. We played some lovely flowing footy early in the game and we'll definitely get better as the year goes on.

Broken tackles killed us

Yep, that is one thing that hasn't improved at all.

No good looking like a giant if your tackles are more like ballerina hugs.

Too many players rolling the dice leaving Nthmond players wide open in the midfield and out wide.

Great to see Simmo and Marchbank attack down the field, but when they fork up hitting the target blokes like Jones, Weitering and Plowman are left standing two or three players and our guys have rolled the dice and lost.

AFL report Simmo at 85% effective for 35 disposals, but fork me a lot of his kicks went just out of reach so many times. He's great at winning the contested footy, but we've gotta stop him being the one kicking.

Byrne, headless chook running, he'll have some of the highest metres for the game, yet hardly touched it.

We had so much first touch, but failed to pick up the pill cleanly, that's basically cost us tonight.

Dow not so clean, SPS looked good one minute, bad the next. Both followed Nthmond players through the midfield. Dow has no idea how to tag, why the feck play him as a tagger?

Eye-opener for Garlett, Mullett and Kennedy, they'll be wondering how the feck can we be tackled before we take possession and get pinged holding, while Nthmond get trapped with the pill slung 720° and it's play on!

SoJ had no form and shouldn't hold his spot.

I feel so dirty and cheated, I pumped up Levi after JLT and he went right back to his bad old best. He's petrified up against blokes like Nankervis.

But our main problem, disposal, missing too many targets by hand and foot, then not enough midfield pace to get back and fix the mistakes.

I gather Weitering had a complete shocker?

Needs to find form in the 2s?

We were fiercely competitive for 3 1/2 q. Faded in the last 15. Inevitably. I was wrapped with our new look game style. Given our injuries that was a top effort IMO

Broken tackles killed us

forced turnovers also

I gather Weitering had a complete shocker?

Needs to find form in the 2s?

Looked like a lost soul to me, not quite sure of his role and tentative at times. Does not look like a happy camper so feck knows what's going on with him? Hopefully he'll get this bad one out of his mind and settle down. I don't think I would be in a hurry to drop him after one bad effort though.

I gather Weitering had a complete shocker?

Needs to find form in the 2s?

He seems to be very one dimensional for a number one draft pick, and he's sure not quick.
He's got nice neat skills though.
He was no worse than Casboult, whether he's ready or not McKay should be playing ahead of him. 

Byrne, headless chook running, he'll have some of the highest metres for the game, yet hardly touched it.

SoJ had no form, shouldn't hold his spot.

The Bad
Byrne was putrid. Zero awareness, gets caught too often and made stupid mistakes, not AFL std I’m afraid. I’d almost say he should never play 1s again.
SOS should plays twos, a witches hat tonight.
Weiters - still a kid but I’m starting to worry a little.

The Good
Charlie-Wow!
Crippa-Ditto
Simmo-Like a Penfolds Grange
Wright’s-Mr Reliable

We're evidently the first side to score > 87 (or maybe it's 89) against the tiges in the past year. One straight kick short of the elusive 100. Crippa career high CP. Charlie breakout game and bag of 5. Matty Wright a bag of 5. Some slick ball use ending in goals.
There's so much to like from tonight.

Everyone is going to bang on about how well we done against last years permiers etc etc.
Well I call bullcrap. We were outscored by 9 goals after the first 10 minutes of the game and if not for our accuracy and Richmond's profligacy we would  in fact lost by over 10 goals.
Weitering is useless, how does a number 1 draft pick defender not know how to actually defend. Kudos to Jones and Marchbank, because they got NO help from Weiters.
In the middle, it looked like Cripps dominated, but getting the ball and quick handballs along the ground that just result in pressure and turnovers.. he is better off just halving the first contest. It reminds me of when we had Carrots getting 40 touches a week. Seriously if Kennedy wasn't injured I would consider not playing him.
We have Charlie and Matty Wright doing the stuff up front, but Jack needs to realise he is not his father's bootlace and he needs to be dropped as well.
Bolton gets points for idiot of the week for putting Kreuzer back on as a statue in a game were we were already worried about their pace and spread at times and he looked horrible in that last quarter, if Bolton cannot get that and get him straight off the ground, then what exactly is he being paid for? To come to the press conference and smile a big grin and tell us how excited he is by the efforts of  Charlie or Marchy.. Yeah we all are Bolts, but how about stop being a cheerleader and start actually fixing the crap on game day that isn't working. Honestly the guy is still absolutely unproven other than he doesn't know how to win games that we have a chance in.
I am a fan of Murphy he has been a stalwart, but his immpact on such a huge game was negligible, if you are on the ground and the game is there to be won Murphy, maybe you need to start looking at how other captains play in these situations. Bystander.
Last of all to our newest 'gun' Paddy WOW...
I think Paddy will be pretty good to be fair, but I am in no mood for finding the positive right now, so I will point out the obvious. He plays like a 17 year old kid. He doesn't get the pace of the game yet, isn't clean enough yet and doesn't have any physicality at all.

Others can be as happy as they want with honourable losses, but screw that. We had less than 50 tackles, less than 50 inside 50s and were flattered on the scoreboard and carried by Charlie, Wright, Simmo. Marchy and a couple of others.

It makes me want to throw up and crap myself at the thought that we should be "happy" with that performance

Couple of things didn't work tonight.

Lamb, Mullett, Ed.Curnow, Wright, Thomas, Cripps, Silvagni, Plowman. Too many without a lot of pace to spare. It made us look very bad on the turnover, the defenders were always out numbered.

Ignoring Charlie, who played OK but perhaps not as good as the goal tally suggests, we had no apparent forward structure again. It's OK to do the fast break crap, but you have to have somebody inside the F50 to kick it to, and you have to kick it to their advantage. And it's no good doing the fast break if it's the Nthmond players streaming past the ball carrier into our F50(See Above).

Finally Cripps is a beast, but he'll have a very short career playing like that all the time. He has to find ways to be useful on the outside or pushing forward.

Good effort by the lads, especially considering Kennedy injury early and Kreuzer out for a bit. Many very good and good players but i think our bottom few cost us.
Jack Silvagni i was hoping he would add a string to his bow but he might just be a tryer and that's probably not enough. Not quick enough and can't seem to find space to get clean possessions.
Jacob Weitering played a stinker. He's better than that but not playing instinctively enough and is a touch slow. May well be 1 too many talls down back against some opposition as discussed heatedly on other threads.
Paddy Dow in just his first game can't be criticised too hard coz he should be a player in time. If we have another player who's gonna help us win games should we play him instead? Or are we still focusing on development?

If we ar focused more on winning than development I'd be inclined to replace those 3 with the likes of Cunningham, Kerridge, Lang or Williamson if fit. A little more speed and ball winning ability would help balance us out.

What this game ahowed me is that we're almost there  in terms of the list build but not quite. We do have some very good young players and we'll beat a few good teams this year. Go blues.

Lang for Thomas/Lamb one obvious change....

Willo for Byrne/Mullett/Weitering...

But overall, losing Kennedy early was a huge blow and one not easy to cover....

Big H should have played and we missed Pickett.

How did Garlett fare?

Oh I forgot to add... Levi Casboult.
Yeap you played a good game in a who gives a crap preseason hitout, but tonight you reminded us we are at the only football club stupid enough to give you a game every week. Are we running and AFL version of a soup kitchen where instead of food we hand out games of football to the bloody poor, useless and needy? If we want to actually win games instead of just being happy to not be thrashed then why is he playing?

“I think Paddy will be pretty good to be fair, but I am in no mood for finding the positive right now, so I will point out the obvious. He plays like a 17 year old kid. He doesn't get the pace of the game yet, isn't clean enough yet and doesn't have any physicality at all.”

Welcome Captain Obvious!!! ‘He doesn’t get the pace of the game.’ It was his first $&@?ing game!! ‘Isn’t clean enough’ They are the best pressure side in the business!! ‘Doesn’t have any physicality at all.’ Check Points 1 and 2 above!! By the way he was 2nd highest tackler behind Cripps.

What he did do tonight was show that when he does get the pace and he does get more time (that 10-12 other teams will give him), he’ll be very, very good.

Lang for Thomas/Lamb one obvious change....

Willo for Byrne/Mullett/Weitering...

But overall, losing Kennedy early was a huge blow and one not easy to cover....

Big H should have played and we missed Pickett.

How did Garlett fare?

Garlett was OK, not a great game, but good for a first game.

Hard to imagine McKay comes in given he had no presence in the VFL practice match.

Rowe is listed as back next week, but would you bring him in cold for a game on Lynch?

"It makes me want to throw up and crap myself at the thought that we should be "happy" with that performance"

Go right ahead  ???

SpecialK hobbling off had a real effect on our playing group, the change in body language was palpable.

We must find ways to get around this, too much depends on too few.

Broken tackles killed us

Amen brother....

SpecialK hobbling off had a real effect on our playing group, the change in body language was palpable.

We must find ways to get around this, too much depends on too few.

X2

Can someone explain to me how Nthmond players keep ending up with Cripps collar in their hand, giving him a collar coat hanger half-a-dozen times per game, yet Cripp's is almost never awarded a free kick for a high contact. He walks of the ground with his neck and collarbone covered in scratches, how can that be for a bloke 195cm and go unrewarded!

It seems his collar must just jump down into their hands whenever he gets near!

btw., Four, the number of times Dusty poked a Carlton player in the throat and wasn't penalised! I just don't get it, and now his team-mates are starting to copy him, and getting away with it!

Lastly from me tonight, friendly jumpers, that is what we have. Jones, Marchbank, Plowman, Casboult, all fly for marks over Nthmond players and barely make contact. Jones should have hospitalised Cotchin tonight, and Casboult, Marchbank and Plowman all had opportunities to attempt marks with severe aggression and instead floundered looking for a tunnelling free. Sorry, that is not what heavily built marking players are supposed to do, they should remember that in a future game as they feel Franklin or Roughead burying their knees into their kidneys or shoulder blade!

Lang for Thomas/Lamb one obvious change....

Willo for Byrne/Mullett/Weitering...

But overall, losing Kennedy early was a huge blow and one not easy to cover....

Big H should have played and we missed Pickett.

How did Garlett fare?

Byrne had a shocker tonight. Lacked awareness and got caught. They made us pay for that.
I thought Daisy was ok. Lamb ok in patches too, needs to show more consistency for mine.
Garlett was solid for his first game since 2016. Linked up well and positioned himself well without taking too much risk. I'm hoping he'll take the game on a bit more when he's adjusted. 
We lost momentum when Kruez went off. He was in the rooms a long time.

Enjoy the replay fb. My hunch is you'll like what you see  ;D

The Bad
Byrne was putrid. Zero awareness, gets caught too often and made stupid mistakes, not AFL std I’m afraid. I’d almost say he should never play 1s again.
SOS should plays twos, a witches hat tonight.
Weiters - still a kid but I’m starting to worry a little.

The Good
Charlie-Wow!
Crippa-Ditto
Simmo-Like a Penfolds Grange
Wright’s-Mr Reliable

I wouldn't be quite so negative about Byrne. He is a guy who does have a future. But at the moment he is struggling. He gets caught too often and he dropped marks he normally swallows. He really had a shocker and needs some time in the 2's to:
(a) get his pace back
(b) get some confidence
(c) work on his game awareness
He has the basics, but he needs to put them together, especially his awareness. I'd drop him, but I would not exile him forever.

Jack Silvagni also needs an extended period in the VFL. He played probably his least effective game tonight. He was slow and got run off continually. His chasing was aweful. Absolutely terrible and he didn't appear to have the desperation that is a hallmark of his game. His reaction times were very slow today as well.
He needs some time to work on his pace, which is his biggest weakness. He needs to get his enthusiasm level up. I want to see him flying for the ball, not getting outbodied all of the time. And he needs to work on his reactions. His dad had brilliant reactions and great strength.


Jacod Weitering is another who needs to work on his body work and his pace. He was OK tonight, but he was always trailing his man. He has to get close enough to get a spoil in on the lead, as he is struggling with this aspect.

Liam Jones didn't have a great night either, as the Richmond forwards worked hard to keep him out of the contest, and tunnelled him when he did succeed to go for marks. This was ignored a number of times. He made one very unrealistic attempt, but the rest should have been frees to him and were not.
His effort in the last quarter was nothing short of brilliant.

I would like to bring Alex Silvagni in. He is a player who adds a lot of solidity to our defence. However, he left the ground before half time with an ice pack on his hamstring. That is not good.

Fisher was good, some of our more heavily built players should be taking note!

The gap between our best & worst players tonight was huge......not enough decent performances in the middle of that gap to ever cause an upset.

Pretty well summed up by most, with our outstanding performers clearly standing out for all the right reasons & our worst clearly outstanding out for all the wrong reasons.

So should I mention the elephant in the room & suggest that Jack Silvagni is not good enough....not even close?

Whilst the likes of Byrne & Weitering deservedly copped their right whack, can I also suggest that Plowman isn’t far behind? I’ve never been convinced by him as a player......he’s sloppy, he’s slow, he’s unreliable, he’s a friggin’ worry......

Our forward line was generally a mess & 36 scoring shots against suggest our backline wasn’t much better, so with all that said, I’ll happily take that 26 point loss.....

Day 1 of a new game plan against a very formidable opposition. Gold Coast, Collingwood and North would want to be on their games in the next 3 weeks.

Murphy was putrid tonite.. I counted at least 7 missed targets from his disposal.. bloody awful for a captain..

Weitering is another who needs to work on his body work and his pace. He was OK tonight, but he was always trailing his man. He has to get close enough to get a spoil in on the lead, as he is struggling with this aspect.

Weitering lacks pace because he has a poor running action and limited acceleration so he has always been poor and will likely always be poor against a fast leading opponent. His forte is zoning off, reading the play and taking intercept marks but that is not how he is being used. The guys with acceleration and closing speed are Jones and Alex Silvagni.

Fisher was good, some of our more heavily built players should be taking note!

Agreed. Little Zac has shown a very steady rate of improvement. He always looks so focussed. Maybe that's why he's progressed so well. That and his increasing tank. It's likely we have a capable Murphy replacement.
He's becoming one of my favorites. His kicking is superior to many of our seasoned players as is his attack on the ball. Like a Jack Russell Terrier is our Fisher.

When we went two players down we had opportunities for KPPs to hurt opponents in contests and marking contests, teams like the Swans or Dawks wouldn't hesitate to take that opportunity. Think of Sandilands marking anywhere, those big knees take a genuine toll on opponents, Ryder is another! Think of Gibson and Hodge, Franklin, Kennedy, Roughead and Lynch. It's the intimidation factor not just the ability.

Jones, Casboult, Weitering, Machbank, Cripps, Charlie need to use their bulk. Cripps does but after the loss of Kennedy he rarely got to the drop zone. Charlie was under some heat after the first quarter so it's tough when someone is hanging off you 80% of the time, yet he'll get better.

I'm not confident Casboult or Jones will change, they have been that way for a long long time.

Weitering and Marchbank will need to either get hot or find a new role, as good as Marchbank was, can we really afford a 193cm x 90kg player in a Simmo running type role!

If McKay, Kerr, De Koning, Lobbe, Phillips, O'Shea get an opportunity I'm looking for some aggression from them.

Out of our whole club I think it's only Kreuzer, ACoS and Rowe I see truly making use of their bulk.

Of the kids, I've liked glimpses from Macreadie and Williamson, they play a hard brand of football some of the older guys should follow. I think Kerr has it in him, and McKay has shown moments but he needs to put together a lot more of them.

I'm a bit worried some of big blokes want to become the next Tom Lamb, all flair and run but no grunt, but Lamb didn't make the cut and our lot might not as well!

I'm a little unsure how to access our game to be honest.

We played a better looking brand of footy but still lost and if they kicked straight possibly would have been a smashing YET we were 2 important men down and played last years premiers.
They had a massive number of inside 50s which is not a great sign defensively YET 2 of our forwards kicked 5 goals which hasn't happened in god knows how long.

Next 4 weeks will be a very accurate guide as to how we are progressing - would want to comfortably take the points next week and expect to win MIN of 2 out of the next 3 to convince me all the hype about our development is warranted.

Any less then 3 wins from the first 5 rounds and brace yourself for another long year. 

Everyone is going to bang on about how well we done against last years permiers etc etc.
Well I call bullcrap. We were outscored by 9 goals after the first 10 minutes of the game and if not for our accuracy and Richmond's profligacy we would  in fact lost by over 10 goals.
Weitering is useless, how does a number 1 draft pick defender not know how to actually defend. Kudos to Jones and Marchbank, because they got NO help from Weiters.
In the middle, it looked like Cripps dominated, but getting the ball and quick handballs along the ground that just result in pressure and turnovers.. he is better off just halving the first contest. It reminds me of when we had Carrots getting 40 touches a week. Seriously if Kennedy wasn't injured I would consider not playing him.
We have Charlie and Matty Wright doing the stuff up front, but Jack needs to realise he is not his father's bootlace and he needs to be dropped as well.
Bolton gets points for idiot of the week for putting Kreuzer back on as a statue in a game were we were already worried about their pace and spread at times and he looked horrible in that last quarter, if Bolton cannot get that and get him straight off the ground, then what exactly is he being paid for? To come to the press conference and smile a big grin and tell us how excited he is by the efforts of  Charlie or Marchy.. Yeah we all are Bolts, but how about stop being a cheerleader and start actually fixing the crap on game day that isn't working. Honestly the guy is still absolutely unproven other than he doesn't know how to win games that we have a chance in.
I am a fan of Murphy he has been a stalwart, but his immpact on such a huge game was negligible, if you are on the ground and the game is there to be won Murphy, maybe you need to start looking at how other captains play in these situations. Bystander.
Last of all to our newest 'gun' Paddy WOW...
I think Paddy will be pretty good to be fair, but I am in no mood for finding the positive right now, so I will point out the obvious. He plays like a 17 year old kid. He doesn't get the pace of the game yet, isn't clean enough yet and doesn't have any physicality at all.

Others can be as happy as they want with honourable losses, but screw that. We had less than 50 tackles, less than 50 inside 50s and were flattered on the scoreboard and carried by Charlie, Wright, Simmo. Marchy and a couple of others.

It makes me want to throw up and crap myself at the thought that we should be "happy" with that performance

This surely has to be the WORST comment I have ever read in a post in my 10 years on the site.   I cannot believe someone could post this.  Drop Crippa?  He had 36 possessions, 25 contested?.  Um, seriously some people.

Everyone is going to bang on about how well we done against last years permiers etc etc.
Well I call bullcrap. We were outscored by 9 goals after the first 10 minutes of the game and if not for our accuracy and Richmond's profligacy we would  in fact lost by over 10 goals.
Weitering is useless, how does a number 1 draft pick defender not know how to actually defend. Kudos to Jones and Marchbank, because they got NO help from Weiters.
In the middle, it looked like Cripps dominated, but getting the ball and quick handballs along the ground that just result in pressure and turnovers.. he is better off just halving the first contest. It reminds me of when we had Carrots getting 40 touches a week. Seriously if Kennedy wasn't injured I would consider not playing him.
We have Charlie and Matty Wright doing the stuff up front, but Jack needs to realise he is not his father's bootlace and he needs to be dropped as well.
Bolton gets points for idiot of the week for putting Kreuzer back on as a statue in a game were we were already worried about their pace and spread at times and he looked horrible in that last quarter, if Bolton cannot get that and get him straight off the ground, then what exactly is he being paid for? To come to the press conference and smile a big grin and tell us how excited he is by the efforts of  Charlie or Marchy.. Yeah we all are Bolts, but how about stop being a cheerleader and start actually fixing the crap on game day that isn't working. Honestly the guy is still absolutely unproven other than he doesn't know how to win games that we have a chance in.
I am a fan of Murphy he has been a stalwart, but his immpact on such a huge game was negligible, if you are on the ground and the game is there to be won Murphy, maybe you need to start looking at how other captains play in these situations. Bystander.
Last of all to our newest 'gun' Paddy WOW...
I think Paddy will be pretty good to be fair, but I am in no mood for finding the positive right now, so I will point out the obvious. He plays like a 17 year old kid. He doesn't get the pace of the game yet, isn't clean enough yet and doesn't have any physicality at all.

Others can be as happy as they want with honourable losses, but screw that. We had less than 50 tackles, less than 50 inside 50s and were flattered on the scoreboard and carried by Charlie, Wright, Simmo. Marchy and a couple of others.

It makes me want to throw up and crap myself at the thought that we should be "happy" with that performance

After digestion of this post, if you delete the 'stupid Crippa to be dropped comment', I actually agree with many of your comments.

This surely has to be the WORST comment I have ever read in a post in my 10 years on the site.   I cannot believe someone could post this.  Drop Crippa?  He had 36 possessions, 25 contested?.  Um, seriously some people.

TBH I thought he was having a lend of us?  ???

Oh I forgot to add... Levi Casboult.
Yeap you played a good game in a who gives a crap preseason hitout, but tonight you reminded us we are at the only football club stupid enough to give you a game every week. Are we running and AFL version of a soup kitchen where instead of food we hand out games of football to the bloody poor, useless and needy? If we want to actually win games instead of just being happy to not be thrashed then why is he playing?

Hate is a strong word.  You should only use it on very 'select' occasions when you absolutely feel like punching someone directly in the nose.  I HATE the way Levi plays the game.  I would absolutely love if he was dropped for ever, then use a stanley knife to scratch off his stupid 41 from the locker so he can not be remembered as a Carlton player.

Agreed. Little Zac has shown a very steady rate of improvement. He always looks so focussed. Maybe that's why he's progressed so well. That and his increasing tank. It's likely we have a capable Murphy replacement.
He's becoming one of my favorites. His kicking is superior to many of our seasoned players as is his attack on the ball. Like a Jack Russell Terrier is our Fisher.

Next to Curnow, thought he was one of the big positives.

Easily his best game - looked like an AFL player, and will get better.

My take on tonight's game for what its worth.

I thought we started very well.  I loved the intensity and the way we looked to play on at all cost, even though some of our ball movement was down right crazy and risky.  Still it created a 5 goal lead.  Kudos.   Then an awful thing happened.  We begin to doubt the fact that we had actually achieved this and started to 'park the bus' and go back to the tried and true way to stop sides from scoring.  We went into our shells and began to shirk contents, looking for the easy possession.     After this happened, it was all over, the only thing to consider was, by how much?   The 26 point loss in the end flattered us.  It should have been well over 70 points.  When you look at the important stats- e.g inside 50's, tackles and marks inside 50... we were flogged.  If we only have 47 inside 50's and 40 tackles next week, Gold Coast beat us.     So what are the main issues IMO?  Well firstly, I think we are very poorly coached.   I don't believe in Bolton at all.  I think he is a junior cadet trying to make it in the big league.  I'm sick of his crap actually.  The Greenshoots, the Learned Readiness, the Learned Bulldust, whatever it's called, it's rubbish.  Truth is, he has a HORRIBLE win/loss record for a coach who has just coached his 50th game.  Yes we are young, but doesn't matter.  You lead by 30 points to 1, you should win most games, despite the opposition.  It is simply to big a head start- or should have been.
The captain is a major issue.  He is soft and poorly skilled.  I cannot believe how many times he turned the ball over with an errant handball or mis-kick which went directly to the opposition.  In terms of leadership, he does not inspire.  Why did we not give the captaincy to Crippa, Simpson, etc.   Unfortunately we really lack leadership- someone who is going to demand standards out there, lead by example, and crack the odd skull if need be.  Then there is the issue of some players just simply not being good enough to play AFL.  Some names that come to mind are Levi, Lamb, Ed Curnow, Byrne, Silvangni and Dow (at the moment).  Why wasn't Harry Mackay, Cunningham, O'shay etc. tried last night?   I think Harry and Cunningham are being 'punished' for some reason.  Well it just doesn't make sense.  If they are bad trainers, then fix the problem with a solution rather than excluding them from the group.  Make them work hard, give them more drills etc.  Surely can't be too hard.  Truth be known, I really didn't like that performance last night.  Richmond were going half pace for a lot of the game, missed shots and had some important outs.  I don't think we've improved much, other than a few shining stars (Charlie) getting better and in patches, we showed for we could move the ball quicker- if we chose to, which wasn't often enough.  We need to play Harry next game, drop the obvious hackers from last night, bite the bullet on Silvangni and send him to the 2's.  Don't play Levi again and don't give him another contract.  Tell them next week against Gold Coast to take the game on for at least a half and see what happens.  Not 15 minutes.  I fear it is going to be a long year with the administration we have at the helm, but let's hope for better next week against a side we should beat at home by 40 points.   I'll reflect on this in my next post next week.

Next to Curnow, thought he was one of the big positives.

Easily his best game - looked like an AFL player, and will get better.

Loved when he got polaxed by Nankervis jumped straight back up and showed no signs of emotion.

Agreed. Little Zac has shown a very steady rate of improvement. He always looks so focussed. Maybe that's why he's progressed so well. That and his increasing tank. It's likely we have a capable Murphy replacement.
He's becoming one of my favorites. His kicking is superior to many of our seasoned players as is his attack on the ball. Like a Jack Russell Terrier is our Fisher.

Absolutely. Zac will be an excellent player for us.

On the 50 metre penalties,  I know it wasn't a good look but there were too many Richmond players running through the protected area without an opponent in sight. 

The rule is the issue there not the application.

Holding the ball was a shocker.   How you can judge a player holding the ball when he was being sat on before he even took possession and it bounces up into his hands leaving him no option is beyond me.  Charlie Curnow and Kennedy got pinged frequently for it.

The unsung contributions from Thomas, lamb,  and mullet who all worked their dots off is under appreciated on this forum.  I think all three would play next week. 

Blokes out at this stage Byrne,  Weitering, Silvagni.  Levi gets a pass because Kreuzer might not come up.  He's the biggest worry for me.  He's had two injury free season in the last ten years and this one isn't going to be one of them. 

So... Let's talk about the elephant in the room.

Was anyone happy with weiterings game last night?
Did he have a matchup?
Was he slow to get the ball moving out of the backline?
Did playing him cost us the chance of including another mid... Say cunningham who couldn't helped us cover the loss of Kennedy early?
Did the opposition play through his opponent?

Did I suggest to everyone that this would in fact happen?!

Is anyone going to put their hand up and apologise?

I get no pleasure for seeing weiterings put in a performance like that and I don't blame him. I blame the coaches who selected him. No spot for him in that side against the tiges.

We played a vastly superior team, and the result was never going to be anything different. Their form line is very impressive, all through the finals series last year, the GF, and the JLT series this season. They had good, sometimes big, victories in all those games, without really kicking all that accurately.

I like the new flair, and the fact that we are finally trying to hit the scoreboard in some meaningful way. Attack is a very good plank in an overall defensive strategy, since you will win many more games kicking 120 points than you will kicking 80.

Much work still to do, but at least I can finally see a small dim light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully it's not a train.

Thought it was a terrific performance against the best side in the comp.

So... Let's talk about the elephant in the room.

Was anyone happy with weiterings game last night?
Did he have a matchup?
Was he slow to get the ball moving out of the backline?
Did playing him cost us the chance of including another mid... Say cunningham who couldn't helped us cover the loss of Kennedy early?
Did the opposition play through his opponent?

Did I suggest to everyone that this would in fact happen?!

Is anyone going to put their hand up and apologise?

I get no pleasure for seeing weiterings put in a performance like that and I don't blame him. I blame the coaches who selected him. No spot for him in that side against the tiges.

wow, what self absorption....

So... Let's talk about the elephant in the room.

Was anyone happy with weiterings game last night?
Did he have a matchup?
Was he slow to get the ball moving out of the backline?
Did playing him cost us the chance of including another mid... Say cunningham who couldn't helped us cover the loss of Kennedy early?
Did the opposition play through his opponent?

Did I suggest to everyone that this would in fact happen?!

Is anyone going to put their hand up and apologise?

I get no pleasure for seeing weiterings put in a performance like that and I don't blame him. I blame the coaches who selected him. No spot for him in that side against the tiges.

I don't know how you can advocate playing the kids by taking out a kid from the side.

Still you were right about this week's selection but that doesn't change the fact that weitering should play when he's available.

He's not much older than Curnow (if he is at all).

Do we want to have weitering find out why he's getting dropped from some games or do we tell him it's for the best that he doesn't play and leave him wondering?   As far as I'm concerned this year is another education year and we don't benefit by not playing weitering.

We played a vastly superior team, and the result was never going to be anything different. Their form line is very impressive, all through the finals series last year, the GF, and the JLT series this season. They had good, sometimes big, victories in all those games, without really kicking all that accurately.

I like the new flair, and the fact that we are finally trying to hit the scoreboard in some meaningful way. Attack is a very good plank in an overall defensive strategy, since you will win many more games kicking 120 points than you will kicking 80.

Much work still to do, but at least I can finally see a small dim light at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully it's not a train.

If we could halve the number of cheap turnovers we would have wone that, even with 2 men down.... I haven't seen the whole game yet (tonight once kids are asleep) but I did see us cough the ball up a fair bit (Ed Curnow springs to mind).

I saw a stat from the Hun that said Tigres scored 14 goals from turnovers!!

I was surprised by Richmond's behind tally as the game went. They didn't seem to be missing easy goals and seemed to nail set shots. We managed 15.5 but there was about 4 shots that didn't score at all.

More attacking style leads to more turnovers, got caught moving the ball to slow in the second half
Caddy and Martin scare our blokes who won't fully lay the body on the line to tackle them.
Losing Kennedy really stuffed our system...
Mullet is too soft and you can see why Scott let him go.
Weitering is slow and confidence shot.
Byrne is a panic merchant.
Jones was the old Jones...No nous
Sosos needs some Sprint work...he is treacle like.

Williamson and OShea should play next week.

More attacking style leads to more turnovers, got caught moving the ball to slow in the second half
Caddy and Martin scare our blokes who won't fully lay the body on the line to tackle them.
Losing Kennedy really stuffed our system...
Mullet is too soft and you can see why Scott let him go.
Weitering is slow and confidence shot.
Byrne is a panic merchant.
Jones was the old Jones...No nous
Sosos needs some Sprint work...he is treacle like.

Williamson and OShea should play next week.

and Darcy Lang. ASOS?

I was surprised by Richmond's behind tally as the game went. They didn't seem to be missing easy goals and seemed to nail set shots. We managed 15.5 but there was about 4 shots that didn't score at all.

We rushed a few through.

We rushed a few through.

Yes, we did.

He's not much older than Curnow (if he is at all).

Charlie Curnow is almost a year older than Weitering but that's not Weitering's problem.

We've taken one of the better intercept marks we've ever drafted, a player who showed us what he can do in his very first season, and forked him up for a short term attempt to cover for Casboult. Levi's poison is spreading, he is the gift that just keeps on giving.

It's a big test of Bolton and the coaches to see if they can get Weitering back to his best, and prevent the whole team from being sucked down the gurgler!

If we end up cooking Weitering and keeping SoJ the joint needs an enema because it's full of nepotistic sh1te! At the moment I cannot see why we are playing SoJ ahead of Kerr, O'Shea or McKay, although none of them show form worth persisting with, and they haven't performed at the level Weitering has shown he is capable of doing. FWIW, I think from limited opportunities Macreadie and Williamson have shown more than SoJ, McKay or Kerr.

People are worried about certain players, I'm more worried because there is a stench of the old Carlton ways, and not the good ones!

the points tally (theirs) last night was not a result of inaccurate kicking....

So, what changes for Rd 2?

For mine (presuming fitness):

Outs: Mullet, Lamb

In: Willo, Lang

Weiters and Jack on notice....ditto Byrne.

Charlie Curnow is almost a year older than Weitering but that's not Weitering's problem.

We've taken one of the better intercept marks we've ever drafted, a player who showed us what he can do in his very first season, and forked him up for a short term attempt to cover for Casboult. Levi's poison is spreading, he is the gift that just keeps on giving.

It's a big test of Bolton and the coaches to see if they can get Weitering back to his best, and prevent the whole team from being sucked down the gurgler!

If we end up cooking Weitering and keeping SoJ the joint needs an enema because it's full of nepotistic sh1te! At the moment I cannot see why we are playing SoJ ahead of Kerr, O'Shea or McKay, although none of them show form worth persisting with, and they haven't performed at the level Weitering has shown he is capable of doing. FWIW, Macreadie and Williamson have shown more than SoJ, McKay or Kerr.

People are worried about certain players, I'm more worried because there is a stench of the old Carlton ways, and not the good ones!

Jack earnt his spot through his efforts last year. That doesn;t mean he'll keep that spot this year...

Weiters? It's clearly between the ears, so get him talking to the sports pysch....

Not sure how Levi gets blame here..... :o :o

If we could halve the number of cheap turnovers we would have wone that, even with 2 men down.... I haven't seen the whole game yet (tonight once kids are asleep) but I did see us cough the ball up a fair bit (Ed Curnow springs to mind).

I saw a stat from the Hun that said Tigres scored 14 goals from turnovers!!

Scores from turnovers has been an issue for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if all teams have high numbers for this stat against the Tigers. Their pressure on the ball carrier and intended receiver is pretty fierce. I think Bolton made a reference to this stat in his presser.

If what has been discussed on here is correct regarding Weeters, i.e that he is a zoning off, intercept player, rather than a "direct opponent" type player, then is not the concept of a direct match up for him either secondary or redundant ?

If the above is true, then the issues with him are either structural (i.e not being played to his strengths), or mental / emotional (confidence, loss of form, mental health etc.)

His sophomore slump has vastly outstayed its welcome. 

Scores from turnovers has been an issue for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if all teams have high numbers for this stat against the Tigers. Their pressure on the ball carrier and intended receiver is pretty fierce. I think Bolton made a reference to this stat in his presser.

Yes, the Nthmond game style and our new apparent game style depend on scores from turnovers, so they should be expected as part of the plan!

Is it good to watch? Really both teams looked ordinary last night, and I think an in-form Swans unit would have given them both fresh ones to crap out of!

Our problem wasn't creating turnovers it was execution once we got hold of the footy. I won't have it that the pressure is to blame, because we regularly won the ball then forked up during a chain of three or four handballs. The pressure was the same for both sides but I didn't see Nthmond missing targets by hand or foot.

We missed targets even when in the clear! :o

There were other very ordinary events, but there is one that stands out on the replay Watch in the last quarter you see us scramble out of defense to the nearside HBF where Mullett wins the ground ball and breaks free. He sets off past two or three of our own players who just stand-by and watch Nthmond players run past them and run Mullett down. The spud commentator, I think it was Ling, bags the hell out of Mullett for a "lack of awareness" and says nothing about Mullett's two or three team-mates who let the opposition run past them without even an arm out to attempt a shepherd. This sort of event happened several times, but that one in particular you can see the whole play in the field of view on the replay. it's a very ordinary look, and it's that lack of effort that shows we are not a unified team!

In contrast watch a couple of the Nthmond F50 entries, watch well ahead of the ball at the target when the view allows, nearly every time they enter you see one of their smalls block for Reiwoldt, Townsend or Martin, several times it was Lambert. In many case the balls was 40 to 50m away but no free was offered! Twice they even made front on contact with our tall defenders and the commentators then went on to criticize the defenders for "not being good enough!" In contrast, we tried that twice and the umpires penalised our small forwards for interference!

Scores from turnovers has been an issue for a while. I wouldn't be surprised if all teams have high numbers for this stat against the Tigers. Their pressure on the ball carrier and intended receiver is pretty fierce. I think Bolton made a reference to this stat in his presser.

But 14 goals, that's a joke!

Yes, the Nthmond game style and our new apparent game style depend on scores from turnovers, so they should be expected as part of the plan!

Is it good to watch? Really both teams looked ordinary last night, and I think an in-form Swans unit would have given them both fresh ones to crap out of!

Our problem wasn't creating turnovers it was execution once we got hold of the footy. I won't have it that the pressure is to blame, because we regularly won the ball then forked up during a chain of three or four handballs. The pressure was the same for both sides but I didn't see Nthmond missing targets by hand or foot.

We missed targets even when in the clear! :o

There were other very ordinary events, but there is one that stands out on the replay Watch in the last quarter you see us scramble out of defense to the nearside HBF where Mullett wins the ground ball and breaks free. He sets off past two or three of our own players who just stand-by and watch Nthmond players run past them and run Mullett down. The spud commentator, I think it was Ling, bags the hell out of Mullett for a lack of awareness and says nothing about Mullett's two or three team-mates who let the opposition run past them without even an attempt to shepherd. This sort of event happened several times, but that one in particular you can see the whole play in the field of view on the replay. it's a very ordinary look, and it's that lack of effort that shows we are not a unified team!

Yes, but having 18 players on the park all unified is hard to do, and it's why the Tigers are so good. A very good example of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. Our skills haven't looked consistently sharp since the Ratten days.

Considering it was a first game, I thought the Tigers looked sharp and slick in the main, and we looked like that in patches. I thought as a visual spectacle it was pretty good.

But 14 goals, that's a joke!

It needs to come down, that's for sure. I'd be interested in seeing how other teams fare against the Tigers on this stat.

Yes, but having 18 players on the park all unified is hard to do, and it's why the Tigers are so good. A very good example of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. Our skills haven't looked consistently sharp since the Ratten days.

I don't accept that PaulP, we are talking about things that are football basics, kids get dragged at U14 level for not doing this stuff and a AFL player on $400K dollars won't do it?

To me there are only two possibilities, we haven't recruited footballers, because any half decent footballer does this naturally. Or our coaches are such control freaks they trained it out of them for some weird reason!

I don't accept that PaulP, we are talking about things that are football basics, kids get dragged at U14 level for not doing this stuff and a AFL player on $400K dollars won't do it?

And yet, it continues to happen - why ?

But 14 goals, that's a joke!

If these game styles persist you will find the vast majority of goals competition wide coming from turnovers.

Last night the commentators made a statement that the AFL would be very happy with the goals scored, but those goals are coming from so many mistakes it's almost unwatchable. It's like this current trend is a statistical niche being exploited by clubs because of the way the game is umpired.

I really didn't enjoy it much at all because so many goals including ours were coast to coast stuff without any real contest. I realise the pressure and pace was high, but I would not say the quality was high.

And yet, it continues to happen - why ?

I cannot answer that, but it seems far worse at our club, there is something part of our club which is destroying confidence and unity.

Maybe the unity thing is just too many list changes, maybe it's something behind the scenes.

Even so, their is no excuse for the on-field stuff, the players are professional footballers.

I don't know how you can advocate playing the kids by taking out a kid from the side.

Still you were right about this week's selection but that doesn't change the fact that weitering should play when he's available.

He's not much older than Curnow (if he is at all).

Do we want to have weitering find out why he's getting dropped from some games or do we tell him it's for the best that he doesn't play and leave him wondering?   As far as I'm concerned this year is another education year and we don't benefit by not playing weitering.

Don't get me wrong I still say weitering  plays more than he doesn't but be smart about it. Last night was an obvious one to leave him out of.

I suggested potentially playing McKay in his spot, or another young mid like Cunningham, so we wouldn't be abandoning youth.

But there is another question raised...
What is best for development... Getting games into as many kids as possible
Or
Knocking off the premiers giving an almighty confidence boost in the process.

Important thing now is to win next week against the Gold Coast, a game we should win. Otherwise a great effort against the Tigers will mean nothing.

Surprised by the negativity, scores were level 8 minutes into the final term.

Yeah we can pick on individuals like Casboult, Silvagni or Murphy but we know those guys are not the future. Cripps and Curnow could be the best 2 players in the comp by 2020. Marchbank was marking everything that went his way. Fisher continues to improve, SPS and Dow are going to be class players.

It's only rd 1 so try to focus on the positives but yeah if we lose next week I'll probably microwave my membership.

wow, what self absorption....

If Im going to cop it from all and sundry when I make a statement, you think I'm not going to point it out when im proven right?  You should be used to being proven wrong from me by now... Not that you'll ever apologise for the vitriol you bark.

Don't get me wrong I still say weitering  plays more than he doesn't but be smart about it. Last night was an obvious one to leave him out of.

I suggested potentially playing McKay in his spot, or another young mid like Cunningham, so we wouldn't be abandoning youth.

But there is another question raised...
What is best for development... Getting games into as many kids as possible
Or
Knocking off the premiers giving an almighty confidence boost in the process.

You could argue that losing Kennedy and Kreuzer on one leg was the bigger difference than playing weitering.   Not to mention that the back 6 last night (minus Simpson) will likely be our back 6 for the next few years.

Pleased:
We came to play and after a slow start, so did our opposition (Balme knew how to prepare a side post premiership - had his influence all over it, Dimma is one lucky pr1ck that Balme joined the Tiggers last year).

Our start and fight to absorb considerable pressure over the next two and a half quarters.

Cripps. Marchbank. SPS. Simpson. Garlett. Curnow bros. Wright. Thomas. Kreuzer. Fisher.

Offensive attitude.

BB's media conference post game.

Number of BlueBaggers at the G to support the boys.


Indifferent:
Influence of: Dow (will be a champ, but not his best outing - will learn heaps). Kennedy (sure he'll do more in future games that what he showed in the first quarter). Jones.


Disappointed:

That we let them back into the game late in the first quarter.

Some of our tackling (and the lack thereof).

Injuries to Kreuz and Kennedy.

Casboult. Murphy (what's with the shizen disposal? Poor leadership through personal errors - doesn't seem to display ruthless attitude). Weitering. SOJ (if not for his bloodline would probably be dropped for next week. Is he really AFL standard? Works hard, great effort ethic but poor game impact - how would you like to be BB telling SOS his boy needs time in the twos!!!).

The result.

Surprised by the negativity, scores were level 8 minutes into the final term.

Yeah we can pick on individuals like Casboult, Silvagni or Murphy but we know those guys are not the future. Cripps and Curnow could be the best 2 players in the comp by 2020. Marchbank was marking everything that went his way. Fisher continues to improve, SPS and Dow are going to be class players.

It's only rd 1 so try to focus on the positives but yeah if we lose next week I'll probably microwave my membership.

X2

Surprised by the negativity, scores were level 8 minutes into the final term.

Yeah we can pick on individuals like Casboult, Silvagni or Murphy but we know those guys are not the future. Cripps and Curnow could be the best 2 players in the comp by 2020. Marchbank was marking everything that went his way. Fisher continues to improve, SPS and Dow are going to be class players.

It's only rd 1 so try to focus on the positives but yeah if we lose next week I'll probably microwave my membership.

x3

You could argue that losing Kennedy and Kreuzer on one leg was the bigger difference than playing weitering.   Not to mention that the back 6 last night (minus Simpson) will likely be our back 6 for the next few years.

No doubt injuries never help but if you can lose a ruckman against anyone is the tigers. Helped bring casboult into the game.
As I said though potentially playing Cunningham instead of weitering makes the loss of Kennedy less significant.

Back 6 for years... Agree... But does that mean we get done by small forward lines for years as well?

..........................

(if not for his bloodline would probably be dropped for next week. Is he really AFL standard? Works hard, great effort ethic but poor game impact - how would you like to be BB telling SOS his boy needs time in the twos!!!).
..........................................

This has been a concern of mine for a while. SOS is IMO, the most powerful man at the club, with connections to the board, Pres, playing group etc. He's got stooges all over the joint. You need to have amazing moral fibre and top shelf ethics to put the club first, and not just treat it as your personal fiefdom.

From what Ive seen of SOS and heard from Jack I would expect SOS to tell Bolton that Jack needs to be dropped.
I think he is getting a run because there isn't anyone bashing down the door to get into the side instead of him, and Jack's work ethic on the field is second to none. If you drop the hardest working player on the field for someone who is only questionably better than him, that doesn't do a lot for making others want to work harder.
Our forwards are the laziest lot of forwards in the game, aside from Jack and Wright. There is no work off the ball. No leading. No blocking. No defensive pressure.
Jack is no world beater. A sign we are improving will probably be that he can't get a game. But he is far from worst on field each week and is possibly the hardest worker out there.

https://www.zerohanger.com/boomer-declares-two-blues-as-the-leagues-best-young-talent-18767/ (https://www.zerohanger.com/boomer-declares-two-blues-as-the-leagues-best-young-talent-18767/)

From what Ive seen of SOS and heard from Jack I would expect SOS to tell Bolton that Jack needs to be dropped.
I think he is getting a run because there isn't anyone bashing down the door to get into the side instead of him, and Jack's work ethic on the field is second to none. If you drop the hardest working player on the field for someone who is only questionably better than him, that doesn't do a lot for making others want to work harder.
Our forwards are the laziest lot of forwards in the game, aside from Jack and Wright. There is no work off the ball. No leading. No blocking. No defensive pressure.
Jack is no world beater. A sign we are improving will probably be that he can't get a game. But he is far from worst on field each week and is possibly the hardest worker out there.

A very good football brain trapped inside a snail's body.

This has been a concern of mine for a while. SOS is IMO, the most powerful man at the club, with connections to the board, Pres, playing group etc. He's got stooges all over the joint. You need to have amazing moral fibre and top shelf ethics to put the club first, and not just treat it as your personal fiefdom.

I'd imagine the club has an even bigger issue coming subject to what BSoS decides?

I think he is getting a run because there isn't anyone bashing down the door to get into the side instead of him,

Are they not bashing down the door because of ability and form, or is their motivation suppressed and affecting their form due to perceptions of nepotism?

I feel sorry for SOS, SoJ and even BSoS if we pick him up. Because it will always be hard for them to be perceived as unprivileged. They almost have to leave Carlton and play elsewhere to achieve that status, or they have to play so well the selection is without question, not unlike G.Ablett Jnr!

I'd imagine the club has an even bigger issue coming subject to what BSoS decides?

Are they not bashing down the door because of ability and form, or is their motivation suppressed and affecting their form due to perceptions of nepotism?

I feel sorry for SOS, SoJ and even BSoS if we pick him up. Because it will always be hard for them to be perceived as unprivileged. They almost have to leave Carlton and play elsewhere to achieve that status, or they have to play so well the selection is without question, not unlike G.Ablett Jnr!

The issue is not that you play at the same club as your dad, the issue is that your dad is there at the same time as you. Ablett Snr was nowhere to be seen when Jr was at the Cats.

Tigers have a good backline.

In last year's grand final Jenkins and Betts were just as bad as Casboult and Silvagni.

Jack was having little scoreboard impact in the forward line. When Kennedy went down, Bolton missed a perfect opportunity to show some real coaching nous and put Jack in the guts as a big bodied inside mid. His lack of pace is not such a big issue there and his smarts and big body and repeat efforts would have been very handy.

Ablett Snr was nowhere to be seen when Jr was at the Cats.

Do you think the son of Ablett Snr held no special status derived from his father's past? I think he almost certainly did, but his form and ability wasn't the issue, not so for his brother.

So many AFL examples, Hird being named head coach without a single days previous experience is another example.

Would any other club have drafted young Buckley?

Tigers have a good backline.

Yes I agree, the media is heavily focused on the hit and miss attack side of the Nthmond game, but it is the defense that their flag is built on! I said as much pre-match, and it's supported by the 2017 stats.

It's not the Nthmond forward line or midfield that keeps the ball in their forward half of the ground, they get so many opportunities they could be kicking 30 goals a week!

Do you think the son of Ablett Snr held no special status derived from his father's past? I think he almost certainly did, but his form and ability wasn't the issue, not so for his brother.

So many AFL examples, Hird being named head coach without a single days previous experience is another example.

Would any other club have drafted young Buckley?

The status is inescapable, and would exist wherever Ablett Jnr played, although to a lesser degree than at the Cats. It's one thing to bitch in the media if you feel your son is being treated badly, or to call a mate on the board or coaching panel, and it's quite another to be there at the club in a powerful position. The arms length aspect does make a difference.  I just hope SOS can follow the lead set by Nathan Ablett, Dylan Buckley, David Walls etc. and accept the umpires decision, if it comes to that.

Agree deags.

Jack tries his butt off.
He was a pick 50+ selection so was never going to be a world beater. I think he has surpassed all my expectations of him already.
We are desperately short of forwards and he is one of the few who hits the scoreboard regularly.

Ease up on the lad.

This has been a concern of mine for a while. SOS is IMO, the most powerful man at the club, with connections to the board, Pres, playing group etc. He's got stooges all over the joint. You need to have amazing moral fibre and top shelf ethics to put the club first, and not just treat it as your personal fiefdom.

And for all those that bag sos, would they like to name players 19 or younger that scored more goals than him last season?
And he was doing it in the worst scoring team in the comp.

He had a MARE of a game yesterday, against Hawthorn he had an average stage, but still snagged a couple and set up another with a beautiful 60m running barrel.

Jack was probably only saved from being WOG yesterday by Weitering's awful effort, but that happens. I agree we had a chance to try him in the middle, but we didn't and now we have to wait and see if he can do that role.

I think Jack will be an okay footballer and I think he cops a lot of heat for a kid who turned 20 in December.
The Tigers have a good defense and we still have limited number of inside 50s despite posting good scores the last 2 games.

As our forward 50 entries increase and (most importantly) our entries inside 50 are more targeted to the leading players, I think Jack will head towards 40 goals a year.
In saying that, he had a mare last night and would be considered to be dropped.

Big SOS was dropped for a Grand Final on Serge's advice (Serge I believe was on the match committee), so I don't think he would interfere in any decision to drop his kids and I don't think Bolton would be influence in any way either.

Agree deags.

Jack tries his butt off.
He was a pick 50+ selection so was never going to be a world beater. I think he has surpassed all my expectations of him already.
We are desperately short of forwards and he is one of the few who hits the scoreboard regularly.

Ease up on the lad.

Isn't this the same line Jimbo uses about Levi ? Jack had a terrible game last night. 2 tackles, 6 disposals, no score at all. 2nd last in AFL fantasy points. The stench is worse than those stinkhorn mushrooms growing in my front garden.

Don't get me wrong I still say weitering  plays more than he doesn't but be smart about it. Last night was an obvious one to leave him out of.

I suggested potentially playing McKay in his spot, or another young mid like Cunningham, so we wouldn't be abandoning youth.

But there is another question raised...
What is best for development... Getting games into as many kids as possible
Or
Knocking off the premiers giving an almighty confidence boost in the process.

Of course Weiters would have been dropped after his 2nd half against  Hawthorn, not a chance.
He deserved his spot int he team last night, despite it backfiring and him having an awful game.

And for all those that bag sos, would they like to name players 19 or younger that scored more goals than him last season?
And he was doing it in the worst scoring team in the comp.

He had a MARE of a game yesterday, against Hawthorn he had an average stage, but still snagged a couple and set up another with a beautiful 60m running barrel.

Jack was probably only saved from being WOG yesterday by Weitering's awful effort, but that happens. I agree we had a chance to try him in the middle, but we didn't and now we have to wait and see if he can do that role.

I think Jack will be an okay footballer and I think he cops a lot of heat for a kid who turned 20 in December.
The Tigers have a good defense and we still have limited number of inside 50s despite posting good scores the last 2 games.

As our forward 50 entries increase and (most importantly) our entries inside 50 are more targeted to the leading players, I think Jack will head towards 40 goals a year.
In saying that, he had a mare last night and would be considered to be dropped.

Big SOS was dropped for a Grand Final on Serge's advice (Serge I believe was on the match committee), so I don't think he would interfere in any decision to drop his kids and I don't think Bolton would be influence in any way either.

I hope you're right about SOS's impartiality. I don't think jack will ever get 40 goals in a season. And in reference to your first paragraph, he, Wright and Levi practically had the forward line to themselves last season. He had to get among the goals.

I still like the idea of Weitering as a forward. If Weitering was playing in Silvagni's spot last night the tigers would have had their hands full.

BB has clearly stated that he sees Weitering as primarily being a defender for us going forward. This won't be abandoned after one poor game - he will be given the chance to settle into the role. This is not to say he won't have the occasional sojourn forward.

My take away from last night's game was ... how freakin' amazing was the 1972 Grand Final!

28.9 (177).  That's TWENTY EIGHT GOALS and nine behinds.

But the past is foreign country. Sigh.

It was disappointing to lose after such a good start but the result was almost inevitable.

I believe our score is the highest kicked against the Tigers at the G for quite a while.  That’s not a bad effort and, if we can maintain that effort and intensity, we’ll trouble most teams and upset more than a few favourites.

What I liked about the game was Bolton’s obvious displeasure at losing.  While he was still positive, I reckon he was seething and I’m sure that attitude is permeating the team.

I would leave the team as it is, apart from any compulsory changes.  Hopefully the nine day break will be good for Kennedy and Kreuzer.

One thing that struck me is that Samo is as hard as a cat’s head and he doesn’t mind inflicting a bit of pain on opponents.

Agree deags.

Jack tries his butt off.
He was a pick 50+ selection so was never going to be a world beater. I think he has surpassed all my expectations of him already.
We are desperately short of forwards and he is one of the few who hits the scoreboard regularly.

Ease up on the lad.

Is that consistent with your Weitering stance?

What has SoJ done to justify the support, compared to Weitering's first season?

I hope you're right about SOS's impartiality. I don't think jack will ever get 40 goals in a season. And in reference to your first paragraph, he, Wright and Levi practically had the forward line to themselves last season. He had to get among the goals.

Lol so we played with 3 forward only?
How the hell did the likes of Lamb or Curnow or anyone else score?

It seems that when people have a view of a player it is close to impossible to shift that view.
If at the start of last season someone told me one of our 19 year olds was going to kick 20 goals, I would have been happy with that.

No doubt injuries never help but if you can lose a ruckman against anyone is the tigers. Helped bring casboult into the game.
As I said though potentially playing Cunningham instead of weitering makes the loss of Kennedy less significant.

It's not who we lost that was important it was the fact that we were effectively out on our feet and it showed.  We are a younger not as battle hardened team, tired legs means tired minds and poor decisions which ultimately cost us more than anything.  Malthouse used to say being down a rotation hurts everyone and he's right.  with interchange caps to manage its even harder as you can't bring players off when they're cooked.

Back 6 for years... Agree... But does that mean we get done by small forward lines for years as well?

perhaps but I'd rather they adjust to this now and learn about how to stop it now rather than when we're in a premiership window and wonder how we got done.

Lol so we played with 3 forward only?
How the hell did the likes of Lamb or Curnow or anyone else score?

It seems that when people have a view of a player it is close to impossible to shift that view.
If at the start of last season someone told me one of our 19 year olds was going to kick 20 goals, I would have been happy with that.

No, I never said we only had 3 forwards. Jed Lamb kicked 6 goals last season. Curnow kicked 20, so I'll give you that.

I'm sorry, but I think Jack is simply too slow, which will forever limit his ability to impact games, and his kicking for goal is not that flash.

And if I'm proven wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.

Jack earnt his spot through his efforts last year. That doesn;t mean he'll keep that spot this year...

Weiters? It's clearly between the ears, so get him talking to the sports pysch....

Not sure how Levi gets blame here..... :o :o

I feel for Weiters - Richmond has a strange forward line - plenty of fast movers and few big blokes.  He doesn't have a great match up in that instance.  His intercept role seems to have been taken over by Marchbank and he looks a bit lost to say the least.

I think Bolton erred by not moving him forward after Kreuz went down and Casboult was no longer in the forward 50.  We looked pretty toothless going forward after that (Kreuz couldn't move.....).

And can someone please tell Ciaran Byrne that the give and go handball only works if the bloke he is giving it to hasn't got three opposition players on him......

Weitering is too good a footballer not to be in the side.
If there's no match up for him back then play him forward.

I'm not sure we play that match up game anyway...players seem to control zones.
Jones seems to have a roving commission on that backline and plays more a "goalkeeping" role.
What we do lack is defensive small backs and a side like Richmond still exploits that.
Make no mistake...folks talk Richmond down but they're a bloody good side and remind me of some of the West Coast teams at their best.

The coaching staff aren't dopes...Weitering's in the side for a reason and he'll probably get a "low-light" reel this week that will be very beneficial in the long run.
If you're going to drop him for someone like McKay then that player will need to show something special because Weitering more than has him covered at this stage.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/a-grey-area-blues-under-fire-for-new-look-20180323-p4z5x9.html

I don't like them either. Like some place in industrial North England, where the whole town seems enveloped in grey soot.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/a-grey-area-blues-under-fire-for-new-look-20180323-p4z5x9.html

I don't like them either. Like some place in industrial North England, where the whole town seems enveloped in grey soot.

I like them  :)

If we have to wear a clash jumper, there's really no reason why we have to stick with the traditional white shorts (and I believe the white shorts = away strip link was dropped long ago when clubs started wearing shorts that matched their jumper colour).  The chamois panels (first suggested by Fev) could make a game-winning difference and Nike are paying us to wear them!

I try not to get too wound up about first games of the year. Some hit the ground running, others have shockers, badly needing a game to get their bearings again. I'll look to see how they all go next week.

Interestingly, the score last year in this game was 20.12 to 14.5. Only difference was the game was never close unlike last night.

Isn't this the same line Jimbo uses about Levi ? Jack had a terrible game last night. 2 tackles, 6 disposals, no score at all. 2nd last in AFL fantasy points. The stench is worse than those stinkhorn mushrooms growing in my front garden.

Before last nights game, Jack was =2nd on our list in terms of goals/game.
0.93 goals a game. Same as Charlie Curnow.

Only person better is Casboult, 1.12 goals a game.

FWIW, Matty Wright is 0.82 goals/game.

So Jack had a bad game. He is still amongst the best forwards we have on our list.
Yes, its the same line people use with Casboult. Problem is there, Casboult has been on the list for 8 years! Jack in his 3rd year. Big difference.

Some other stats you might like to compare.
Levi's first game was as a 22yo (22y 130d to be precise)
Jacks was as an 18yo. His game last night he was 20y 100d old.

Jack has played 29 games now. When Levi played his 29th game he was 24 years old. Jack is 4 years ahead of Levi in terms of development.

Sure, keep comparing them if you want.

Before last nights game, Jack was =2nd on our list in terms of goals/game.
0.93 goals a game. Same as Charlie Curnow.

Only person better is Casboult, 1.12 goals a game.

FWIW, Matty Wright is 0.82 goals/game.

So Jack had a bad game. He is still amongst the best forwards we have on our list.
Yes, its the same line people use with Casboult. Problem is there, Casboult has been on the list for 8 years! Jack in his 3rd year. Big difference.

Some other stats you might like to compare.
Levi's first game was as a 22yo (22y 130d to be precise)
Jacks was as an 18yo. His game last night he was 20y 100d old.

Jack has played 29 games now. When Levi played his 29th game he was 24 years old. Jack is 4 years ahead of Levi in terms of development.

Sure, keep comparing them if you want.

If Jack is "among the best forwards on our list", based on goals/game, then Levi must be the best, no ?

Ordinariness has nothing to with age - Jack and Levi are both average footballers, they were average when they started their careers, and they will be average when they finish.

Wright has kicked 57 goals from 45 games for the Blues...

Is that consistent with your Weitering stance?

What has SoJ done to justify the support, compared to Weitering's first season?

My Weitering stance is not specifically about Weitering at all.

I don't know if its an old way of thinking or not, but it seems people have a 'best 22' and that is that.
IMO, you pick your team that gives you the best chance of winning that week. So the 'best 22' one week could be completely different to the 'best 22' the following week and that is based on your opposition and what it takes to beat them.

My 'stance' on Weitering is that there are times where him being in the side can not just hurt our chances of winning the game, but assist the opposition in winning it.

Last night, in the in-game thread, a couple people were pointing out how many shots on goal the tigers got when Weitering was the direct opponent. Weitering was switched around trying to find a matchup (wasn't one for him) and the tigers continually went through his man to get a shot on goal.
Now if the opposition is just going to bomb it long and hope, sure, Weitering zoning off is an asset.
If the opposition is too smart for that and has a bunch of small forwards who can lead, mark and run off weitering, he is a liability.

That doesn't mean you drop him next week, you look at the matchups.

Its no different to say coming up against Sandilands in the ruck. You can attempt to let Kreuzer fight it out one on one with him, or you can bring in a backup ruck, run him around and rotate fresh players that jump into him all game. He gets sore from the excessive contact, gets blown up from chasing tail, or allows you a free man because he isn't chasing. Its a match up thing. Horses for courses.

All the players are chess pieces. I use them as i see fit to win the game.
One day your queen will get you the win, one day a rook. One day, it might even be a pawn. You use the pieces you have, to get you an advantage and win.
Weitering against Richmond, was never going to get us the win, but could've cost us victory. Next week, he might be the piece we need to win and someone like Byrne could be the liability

Wright has kicked 57 goals from 45 games for the Blues...

and 115 from 138 in his career.

If Jack is "among the best forwards on our list", based on goals/game, then Levi must be the best, no ?

Ordinariness has nothing to with age - Jack and Levi are both average footballers, they were average when they started their careers, and they will be average when they finish.

...and Denis Armfield was ordinary too, but he got picked because he always gave 100% and never died wondering.

Jack, ordinary, still busts his ar$e. Same as Daisy.
Levi, ordinary, might not require a shower after the game.

Jacks was as an 18yo. His game last night he was 20y 100d old.

Hmm, almost exactly thirty days younger than Weitering, people seem to forget that one!

...and Denis Armfield was ordinary too, but he got picked because he always gave 100% and never died wondering.

Jack, ordinary, still busts his ar$e. Same as Daisy.
Levi, ordinary, might not require a shower after the game.

And yet, here he is, after 6 completed seasons, still on our list. You'd think that somewhere in the 3 regimes that he's played under, someone might call him out as the lazy fraud that he is, but no, he's pulled the wool over everybody's eyes.

And yet, here he is, after 6 completed seasons, still on our list. You'd think that somewhere in the 3 regimes that he's played under, someone might call him out as the lazy fraud that he is, but no, he's pulled the wool over everybody's eyes.

Not this little black duck!

I've been calling for us to find a replacement for him for years and continue to call for one.
Love, his marking, but with his kicking, he simply cannot be relied upon.

I still think he's the best we have...and i also think that is embarrassing.

Hmm, almost exactly thirty days younger than Weitering, people seem to forget that one!

You seem to forget that winning is the #1 priority, not giving games to kids because they are kids.

Last night, in the in-game thread, a couple people were pointing out how many shots on goal the tigers got when Weitering was the direct opponent. Weitering was switched around trying to find a matchup (wasn't one for him) and the tigers continually went through his man to get a shot on goal.

That is a fairly liberal interpretation of the events.

Weitering and Jones looked bad last night primarily because as the stay at home KPDs they were regular caught out of position against superior numbers. Marchbank, Simmo, Byrne and Plowman took off up field before we managed to find yet another way to turn it over! Nthmond moved the ball so quickly on the rebound those four were frequently caught heading back with the flight of the ball into D50 when it passed them bye! On the replay you can frequently see the late cavalry arrival on those occasions Jones or Weitering managed to hold up the forwards. Often one of the first to get back and help was the much maligned Daisy, there are a lot of supposedly younger, fitter, faster and more agile players on our list that didn't match Daisy's efforts!

Personally, our defensive setup didn't work well because to me we looked very disorganised, blokes like Byrne and Mullett didn't know where to be or when. It just takes one or two in that sort of disorder and a good AFL team will take full advantage. As a group we didn't gel, I suppose it's a symptom of making so many list changes in recent years. Having Dow and Garlett both playing didn't help either, both of them regularly let opponents get goal side.

You seem to forget that winning is the #1 priority, not giving games to kids because they are kids.

Personally I can only judge the two based on their past. SoJ has done some OK things relative to his team-mates, but during his first season Weitering was a stand-out in a couple of aspects of his game relative to the rest of the whole competition!

Debating SoJ relative to Weitering is not comparing apples for apples.

It was disappointing to lose after such a good start but the result was almost inevitable.

I believe our score is the highest kicked against the Tigers at the G for quite a while.  That’s not a bad effort and, if we can maintain that effort and intensity, we’ll trouble most teams and upset more than a few favourites.

What I liked about the game was Bolton’s obvious displeasure at losing. While he was still positive, I reckon he was seething and I’m sure that attitude is permeating the team.

I would leave the team as it is, apart from any compulsory changes.  Hopefully the nine day break will be good for Kennedy and Kreuzer.

One thing that struck me is that Samo is as hard as a cat’s head and he doesn’t mind inflicting a bit of pain on opponents.

Noticed exactly the same thing - it was palpable. One of the reasons I really like BBs media conferences - the bloke is authentic/real.

Personally I can only judge the two based on their past. SoJ has done some OK things relative to his team-mates, but during his first season Weitering was a stand-out in a couple of aspects of his game relative to the rest of the whole competition!

...and i agree with that.

If Silvagni was a backman and Weitering was a forward, i'd completely change my tune. But they are not.

Our backline has as much depth as our forward line lacks.

That is, our 2nd's back 6 could outdo our 1sts forwardline.....and that is simply because of the makeup of our list.

....but that doesn't change that you can only pick 22 players to win you the game on any given day, and IMO weitering didn't have a matchup and shouldn't have been picked. Pick Cunningham instead to allow us an extra rotation through the midfield....which would've helped when Kennedy went down.

Not this little black duck!

I've been calling for us to find a replacement for him for years and continue to call for one.
Love, his marking, but with his kicking, he simply cannot be relied upon.

I still think he's the best we have...and i also think that is embarrassing.

You should have got on the blower to Ratts or Mick - you still have a chance with Bolts. He might listen to you, unlike the loonies around here.

To be honest, I'll be quite happy when them and their ilk are expunged from our list for good.

...and i agree with that.

If Silvagni was a backman and Weitering was a forward, i'd completely change my tune. But they are not.

Our backline has as much depth as our forward line lacks.

That is, our 2nd's back 6 could outdo our 1sts forwardline.....and that is simply because of the makeup of our list.

....but that doesn't change that you can only pick 22 players to win you the game on any given day, and IMO weitering didn't have a matchup and shouldn't have been picked. Pick Cunningham instead to allow us an extra rotation through the midfield....which would've helped when Kennedy went down.

The trouble is Kruddler, I don't want to see it but Weitering is probably also a better forward than SoJ. I think that was the mistake our club made, and it will take sometime to correct.

I have no problems with SoJ or with his work ethic, but through the JLT and after last night it's clear he doesn't deserve a spot any more than some of the alternatives. I'd have even played O'Shea as a HFF ahead of him. People forget O'Shea has played 81 games for Port, he's no newbie, his best game came as a HBF pushing forward against GWS!

The trouble is Kruddler, I don't want to see it but Weitering is probably also a better forward than SoJ. I think that was the mistake our club made, and it will take sometime to correct.

I have no problems with SoJ or with his work ethic, but through the JLT and after last night it's clear he doesn't deserve a spot any more than some of the alternatives. I'd have even played O'Shea as a HFF ahead of him. People forget O'Shea has played 81 games for Port, he's no newbie, his best game came as a HBF pushing forward against GWS!

...and if they want to pick Weitering as a forward and drop Casboult, i'd support that.
I'd prefer they play McKay there first as Weitering is more of a known by comparison. But long term if McKay doesn't cut it and Weitering does, more power to him.

As for Oshea, got nothing against him, but i wouldn't have picked him up. Again, list management...too many backmen. I know SOS was a backman and has a good eye for them, but he needs to remember you can only play 6 of them at once. Sad thing is, SOS has kicked more goals than anyone on our list.

And yet, here he is, after 6 completed seasons, still on our list. You'd think that somewhere in the 3 regimes that he's played under, someone might call him out as the lazy fraud that he is, but no, he's pulled the wool over everybody's eyes.

I wish it was 6 years, Levi joined us in 2009, which was the 2010 Rookie Draft!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_AFL_draft#2010_rookie_draft

I wish it was 6 years, Levi joined us in 2009, which was the 2010 Rookie Draft!

Yes, that's true. but made his senior debut in 2012, which was my point, albeit clumsily expressed.

You seem to forget that winning is the #1 priority, not giving games to kids because they are kids.

I wonder about that sometimes :-\

It's only one game, and against the reigning premiers. I don't expect any changes except those forced by injury. Can't understand the calls for McKay to play, seen him play a few times now and he offers nothing at this stage. If he gets picked now without getting some form and confidence in the VFL he'll just be the next whipping boy!

I wonder about that sometimes :-\

...which is where this whole weitering debate started for me.

What is better for our development?
Getting games into kids and coming out with an honourable loss?
or
Picking the side that gives you the best chance of winning (still heavily stacked with kids) and beating the premiers?

Overall, benefit to the team as a whole, it has to be the latter. Yet, it seems people are fixated with the former....coaches included.

It's only one game, and against the reigning premiers. I don't expect any changes except those forced by injury. Can't understand the calls for McKay to play, seen him play a few times now and he offers nothing at this stage. If he gets picked now without getting some form and confidence in the VFL he'll just be the next whipping boy!

I think McKay comes in only if Kreuzer's out.

...which is where this whole weitering debate started for me.

What is better for our development?
Getting games into kids and coming out with an honourable loss?
or
Picking the side that gives you the best chance of winning (still heavily stacked with kids) and beating the premiers?

Overall, benefit to the team as a whole, it has to be the latter. Yet, it seems people are fixated with the former....coaches included.

I honestly don't believe we picked sides to win every game last year.
We'll have to wait a few games into this season before we make a judgement.

At some point "selecting to win" must be the priority...you can only test the supporters patience for so long.
Having said that though....what selections would have made a difference to the result last night.
I cant think of any. :(

I'd pick a ruckman if Kreuzer's out, either Phillips or Lobbe, whoever is fit and has shown more at training

I honestly don't believe we picked sides to win every game last year.
We'll have to wait a few games into this season before we make a judgement.

At some point "selecting to win" must be the priority...you can only test the supporters patience for so long.
Having said that though....what selections would have made a difference to the result last night.
I cant think of any. :(

You been skipping over all my posts then. ;)

Weitering out (no matchup)
Cunningham in (extra midfield rotation) - covers the loss of Kennedy early, an extra small rotation so we don't run out of legs late

and 115 from 138 in his career.

Which is not relevant for the comparison you were making.

Which is not relevant for the comparison you were making.

How do you figure that? Over everyones career, what i said was true.

Its like saying we have no premiership players on our list, because Daisy winning at the pies doesn't count somehow. Bizarre comment.

How do you figure that? Over everyones career, what i said was true.

Its like saying we have no premiership players on our list, because Daisy winning at the pies doesn't count somehow. Bizarre comment.

Wright’s “real” number is what he has done at Carlton, as you are ranking within our list. 

Daisy and Judd aren’t Carlton premiership players, and Peter McKenna isn’t our leading goal kicker.

Including his Adelaide career distorts (negatively) how effective he has been for us.

You been skipping over all my posts then. ;)

Weitering out (no matchup)
Cunningham in (extra midfield rotation) - covers the loss of Kennedy early, an extra small rotation so we don't run out of legs late

Weitering stays because I think he's a better forward option than Silvagni at present.

But I doubt it would have made any difference to the result.

Kruddler was rght on Weitering ,he didn't end up with a suitable matchup and was a liability down back.
He gets preferential treatment because he is a no 1 pick imo and pushing him forward isn't the answer, it's just a refusal to accept he is out of form and needs a spell in the two,s.
SOSOS is the same, yep trying but not anywhere near it and needs to learn more about the game in the VFL., not just  kept in the team because his father is a powerful figure at the club with a famous surname.

On Levi,  I don't care about his kicking being average.

For me the biggest negative in him is what happens when he doesn't take the mark.

He's out of the contest and doesn't apply enough forward pressure at ground level.

I still keep him in for team balance (him out means rance on Charlie instead of astbury).

I really don’t get the criticism of Weitering and SOJ.   :-\

The former was made to look bad by our other defenders pushing up the ground and leaving him (and Jones) exposed.  Some of Weitering’s work on the last line of defence was outstanding.

SOJ had a hard night but worked his butt off as usual.  His fortunes rely more on the work of our midfield than his own efforts.  However, I’d like to see him spend more time in the midfield where his footy smarts can come to the fore.

I really don’t get the criticism of Weitering and SOJ.   :-\

The former was made to look bad by our other defenders pushing up the ground and leaving him (and Jones) exposed.  Some of Weitering’s work on the last line of defence was outstanding.

SOJ had a hard night but worked his butt off as usual.  His fortunes rely more on the work of our midfield than his own efforts.  However, I’d like to see him spend more time in the midfield where his footy smarts can come to the fore.

Agree with this 100 percent. We were all crying out to be more attacking. Well guess what, if you push everyone further forward and then turn the ball over, you leave 1 or 2 defenders stranded, and it was very noticeable at the game last night that they pushed forward after a turnover harder than we pushed back, hence Weitering and Jones were often outnumbered and under way too much pressure. If you want to be higher scoring, this is the price you pay, it makes it a skill contest, and we lost. Silvagni worked his butt off, disrupted a lot of what they wanted to do, and got very ordinary service from our midfield, but he did run very hard to create space for his teammates. No doubt he's one of our best forwards atm

I really don’t get the criticism of Weitering and SOJ.   :-\

The former was made to look bad by our other defenders pushing up the ground and leaving him (and Jones) exposed.  Some of Weitering’s work on the last line of defence was outstanding.

SOJ had a hard night but worked his butt off as usual.  His fortunes rely more on the work of our midfield than his own efforts.  However, I’d like to see him spend more time in the midfield where his footy smarts can come to the fore.

Sorry mate, disagree. Firstly, I am a big fan of the two lads, last night though, they were terrible. Out of 10, I would rate them 3. 6 marks between them, SOS didnt trouble the scorers and Weiters pooed his pants on numerous occasions when the ball came near him. There was a one on one marking contest between Weiters and Dusty that the young fella will find hard to watch the replay I reckon. Turned to see who his opponent was and he pooed himself. I know Dusty is a bull and a gun but...
They looked like players coming off long injury layoffs. They need to find form....fast.

Agree with this 100 percent. We were all crying out to be more attacking. Well guess what, if you push everyone further forward and then turn the ball over, you leave 1 or 2 defenders stranded, and it was very noticeable at the game last night that they pushed forward after a turnover harder than we pushed back, hence Weitering and Jones were often outnumbered and under way too much pressure. If you want to be higher scoring, this is the price you pay, it makes it a skill contest, and we lost. Silvagni worked his butt off, disrupted a lot of what they wanted to do, and got very ordinary service from our midfield, but he did run very hard to create space for his teammates. No doubt he's one of our best forwards atm

A lot of truth in what you say JB. We were caught out a lot by our focus on pushing forward i.e. doing what we were crying out for last year and trying to move the ball forward quickly. Only one game and we'll no doubt get better at executing this style of play. The Tigers were also pretty good at feeding off our mistakes and rebounding quickly.

A lot of truth in what you say JB. We were caught out a lot by our focus on pushing forward i.e. doing what we were crying out for last year and trying to move the ball forward quickly. Only one game and we'll no doubt get better at executing this style of play. The Tigers were also pretty good at feeding off our mistakes and rebounding quickly.

They were ruthless in this area Cookie. I sat up in the nose bleed section in the Ponsford (5 rows from the back) so I had a really good view of the full ground and their positioning and spread from T/O's was pretty darn good to watch.

Would any other club have drafted young Buckley?

d
GWS ?

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/a-grey-area-blues-under-fire-for-new-look-20180323-p4z5x9.html

I don't like them either. Like some place in industrial North England, where the whole town seems enveloped in grey soot.

Wow, we’ve upset some heavy hitters there... ????

It's six on six down back now, not seven on six, defenders have to defend and will be tested with our new game plan and the possibility of more turnovers.
No room anymore for intercept marking players only, the honeymoon down back is over and we will see who can hold there own as a defender.

It's six on six down back now, not seven on six, defenders have to defend and will be tested with our new game plan and the possibility of more turnovers.
No room anymore for intercept marking players only, the honeymoon down back is over and we will see who can hold there own as a defender.

Yes, the luxury of having Doc as a loose man in defence is long gone.

However, it’s not really a six on six situation. Our defence, like most other clubs, relies on protecting areas and forcing inside 50s into low percentage parts of the ground.  It also relies on midfielders, rucks and forwards getting up the ground to defend territory.  That may result in an eight on eight or ten on ten defensive match up.

Wow, we’ve upset some heavy hitters there... ????

Wait and see, they will all have the hand drying patches within a season or two, but you won't hear them giving Carlton any credit for it.

I’d be demoting Byrne and Lamb, long before even considering Weitering or SOJ. I love Silvagni’s attack on the football, despite his lack of pace and unlike Lamb, he tends to stick his tackles. In time I’d like to think that SOJ could become our modern day Brett Heady.

Byrne needs to be more far more composed than he was last night, but perhaps he was instructed to play on at all times - in any event  Tom Williamson is a material upgrade.

Casboult appears to be besieged by mental demons - he has all the tools to be a dominant forward but is introverted and lacks belief in his ability to match it with a player like Rance or to take control of a game. I’m not sure how you inject a vile of Dermott Brereton into a guy like Levi.

Wait and see, they will all have the hand drying patches within a season or two, but you won't hear them giving Carlton any credit for it.

Do hand drying patches come in white?

I don't know why lamb is copping it.  Bloke worked his dot off to create a scoring chance which resulted in one of wrights goals.  Has added a little speed this year too and generally plays an honest if unspectacular style of footy.  He's not a major worry at the moment and I expect him to play more than he misses.

I don't know why lamb is copping it.  Bloke worked his dot off to create a scoring chance which resulted in one of wrights goals.  Has added a little speed this year too and generally plays an honest if unspectacular style of footy.  He's not a major worry at the moment and I expect him to play more than he misses.

I thought Lamb was OK as well.

You sort of answered your own question, the unspectacular reference nails it. He's suffering Daisy disease, nobody is noticing the unfashionable boring stuff he does that helps team-mates. Buit we saw a bunch of this stuff from Lamb during the JLT, and he's continued it into the season.

Do hand drying patches come in white?

They are synthetic chamois, why would you want white for something that is intended to wipe your filthy greasy hands on?

Wait and see, they will all have the hand drying patches within a season or two, but you won't hear them giving Carlton any credit for it.

I thought they looked ugly. Had no idea they were chamois.  How clever. I agree we're blazing a niche trail here :))

Just watched the replay. A couple of things jump out:
1  we need to review our <15m dinky kicks and rub them out
2  Samo did some amazing moves q1. His tackle pressure will become a game changer in time
3   Zac Fisher is improving quarter by quarter. Star material
4   is Caddy related to Donald Trump? The face, the hair, the obsession with his own image.....
5   2 + 3 + Crippa + Bam Bam + Dow (?Charlie) are the foundation of our future midfield. Can't help but feel optimistic and a tad excited about our future  ^-^

Go Blues

Loved when he got polaxed by Nankervis jumped straight back up and showed no signs of emotion.

Pissed me off that little Levi ran straight past Nank without roughing him up after he smashed Big Zac Fisher. If CAS had Fishers guts and mongrel.....

Wait and see, they will all have the hand drying patches within a season or two, but you won't hear them giving Carlton any credit for it.

It's been on our shorts since Fev was around. I don't think anyone's picked it up yet.

Also can't believe how many of the Richmond players I actually dislike now. Caddy, McIntosh, Butler, Nank, Ellis, Townsend, Riewoldt and did I mention Caddy.

But to be honest I was really excited by the way we played. So many positives to take out of the game. Fast ball movement, almost kicked 100 points. Kept up with the reigning premiers for 3.5 quarters until the loss of Kreuzer really took its toll.
The good
Curnwow
Crippa
Marchbank
Simmo
Wright
Ed Curnow 29 touches 6i50's
Garlett SPS AND Fish

The putrid
Umps
Commentators and their disgusting bias
Casboult
Silvagni
Weitering, prefer Macreadie to have an extended run
Byrne had no space to play, but I really do rate
We are way too reliant on Kreuzer, our most important player on the list imo

I am more happy than not though. Bring on the Suns, should be a good match

Also can't believe how many of the Richmond players I actually dislike now. Caddy, McIntosh, Butler, Nank, Ellis, Townsend, Riewoldt and did I mention Caddy.

Yeah. There's a bit to dislike about Caddy.
Mainly because he plays for Ninthmond and he is becoming a bloody good footballer. >:(

Yeah. There's a bit to dislike about Caddy.
Mainly because he plays for Ninthmond and he is becoming a bloody good footballer. >:(

Im afraid you are correct mate, but it's also his face  >:D

I don't actually hate Richmond as a team though, enjoy watching Dusty play. If it was Cripps with those big fend offs we would love it.

I don't actually hate Richmond as a team though, enjoy watching Dusty play. If it was Cripps with those big fend offs we would love it.

Can only dream of Dusty in the dark navy. Love the way he plays, sigh.

Just watched the replay. A couple of things jump out:
1  we need to review our <15m dinky kicks and rub them out
2  Samo did some amazing moves q1. His tackle pressure will become a game changer in time
3   Zac Fisher is improving quarter by quarter. Star material
4   is Caddy related to Donald Trump? The face, the hair, the obsession with his own image.....
5   2 + 3 + Crippa + Bam Bam + Dow (?Charlie) are the foundation of our future midfield. Can't help but feel optimistic and a tad excited about our future  ^-^

Go Blues

Fair summary. One other thing apart from the dinky kicks was the excessive number of handballs at teammates feet, WTF is that?

Can only dream of Dusty in the dark navy. Love the way he plays, sigh.

no thanks.

no thanks.

 ;)

Can only dream of Dusty in the dark navy. Love the way he plays, sigh.

The minute he joined Carlton his career would be cruelled by penalties for high contact, you can absolutely back it in!

The minute he joined Carlton his career would be cruelled by penalties for high contact, you can absolutely back it in!

And if he just so much as brushed past an umpire..........wow!

Pretty impressed by the performance. If that's the gap from us to last years premiers then we have come a long way!

Everyone showed signs however starting to worry over Weitering and Silvagni. Both I feel are stuffed half way through first quarters, thunder thighs runs with concrete legs and Silvagni has no where near an afl tank either. Weitering I think is not a key defender and I think we need to use him as a 3rd tall rebounding type and build his confidence. Silvagni is a 3rd tall forward and unfortunately thats it, hopefully they improve throughout the year.

And if he just so much as brushed past an umpire..........wow!

That reminds me.

Thursday night when a Nthmond player was having a set shot our guy was being placed on the mark by the umpire when the Nthmond player played on. Our nearest players was about 5m in on the corridor side and his attempt to smoother was blocked by an umpire and another Nthmond player. The umpire had gotten between our nearest player and the player holding the ball, yet they allowed the goal to stand! It should have been brought back as an umpire got in the way of the defender!

Pretty impressed by the performance. If that's the gap from us to last years premiers then we have come a long way!

Everyone showed signs however starting to worry over Weitering and Silvagni. Both I feel are stuffed half way through first quarters, thunder thighs runs with concrete legs and Silvagni has no where near an afl tank either. Weitering I think is not a key defender and I think we need to use him as a 3rd tall rebounding type and build his confidence. Silvagni is a 3rd tall forward and unfortunately thats it, hopefully they improve throughout the year.

They are both only 20, they are were both young draftees.

It's a good thing to remind yourself what they can do as kids;

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/121920/Jacob-WEITERING

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/124067/Jack-SILVAGNI

Remember that the above summaries are discussing the efforts of 18 and 19 year olds playing KP at the highest level!

A lot of media people are making comparisons to Daniher, even the spuds on Ch.7 who cannot help but add a CheatsFC reference to every game. But Daniher has been around much longer, his debut was 2013, compare his first seasons with the guys above and they look pretty good all of a sudden.

http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/116946/Joe-DANIHER

My only concern about this debate is comparing Silvagni to Weitering, it's not fair, they are a different class of player.

Just watched BB's presser. A distinct change of tune IMO. I don't think we'll be hearing any more about green shoots - the emphasis is clearly now on winning and NO EXCUSES. We have clearly entered the next stage of our journey.

I think there is a simple equation emerging............

Cripps + Curnow + Offensive game plan = 60,000+ members in 2019.

We have a couple of genuine stars who will drag people through the gates, attract the young and reconnect us with that strong powerbase we had years ago.

On membership.......  When our time comes for that last Saturday in September, I'd like to think that those who have had continuous 15 - 20 year membership  would be given preference, purely as a reward for loyalty!!

Just watched BB's presser. A distinct change of tune IMO. I don't think we'll be hearing any more about green shoots - the emphasis is clearly now on winning and NO EXCUSES. We have clearly entered the next stage of our journey.

He'll be feeling some pressure now, the honeymoon is over, it's reality time!

Not matter what sort of optimism fans feel, clubs has very little patience. It's why when we get the opportunity I think we must communicate our willingness for the long haul to any and all club officials, or BB will get the boot before he has even had a chance to get started.

If we as supporters are not vocal, the only feedback the club officials will get is from the media, and we know how that ends! ;)

Right now it's important that those good efforts, like Charlie kicking 5, translate to new members, the club will see that as a move in the right direction and it is probably the only objective measure they have!

On membership.......  When our time comes for that last Saturday in September, I'd like to think that those who have had continuous 15 - 20 year membership  would be given preference, purely as a reward for loyalty!!

As much as I like the sentiment, reality is that won't happen. I think you'll find the very opposite, the club will be courting the elite and trying to get them on-board!

If you want to support Carlton, get to some H&A games before the fair weather fans start to creep out of the woodwork!

watched the first half replay, 2nd half tonight.

Umps were hideous against us in Q2. Charlie pinged for holding the ball though tackled as he took possession then 3 htb decision that should have been paid were called play on.

Then Daisy got done over twice - the ungainly handball that was legit then the non mark call that was mark.

And a tackle by Jack I50, near goal, that was holding the ball every day of the week. BT brushed it off saying the defender disposed of the ball correctly - sure, but afterbeing held in the tackle for an eternity.

All that stuff cost us 3 goals one way or the other....

A big 'change' in a tight game...

More later but does make you wonder if the AFL wants certain teams to 'succeed' - or others not to...

I think there is a simple equation emerging............

Cripps + Curnow + Offensive game plan = 60,000+ members in 2019.

We have a couple of genuine stars who will drag people through the gates, attract the young and reconnect us with that strong powerbase we had years ago.

On membership.......  When our time comes for that last Saturday in September, I'd like to think that those who have had continuous 15 - 20 year membership  would be given preference, purely as a reward for loyalty!!

100% agree with this but big offers are going to come for these lads so need to lock both into long term extensions now before the juggle drums will start beating.

Crippa is a WA lad and exactly the player WC would sell the farm for. Dont want to get too far into this season with him resigning. Charlie has Geelong roots and there is already whispers those pr1cks are sniffing around.

Need confidence back among supporters so locking in our 2 best players is the way to do it.

Then go nuts on membership drives and watch new supporters jump aboard. 

And yeah, Murphy played well in H1, without being dominant and Weiters wasn't that bad. Jack struggled to get involved but that happens sometime and other forwards were getting the job done...

watched the first half replay, 2nd half tonight.

Umps were hideous against us in Q2. Charlie pinged for holding the ball though tackled as he took possession then 3 htb decision that should have been paid were called play on.

Then Daisy got done over twice - the ungainly handball that was legit then the non mark call that was mark.

And a tackle by Jack I50, near goal, that was holding the ball every day of the week. BT brushed it off saying the defender disposed of the ball correctly - sure, but afterbeing held in the tackle for an eternity.

All that stuff cost us 3 goals one way or the other....

A big 'change' in a tight game...

More later but does make you wonder if the AFL wants certain teams to 'succeed' - or others not to...

I'm sure they have a certain narrative in mind for each and every season. Possibly a two-peat for the Tigger faithful?

Their next project will be "Project Bomber Rehabilitation". Ch 7 (Ch Bummer) was playing its part enthusiastically last night. I think playing finals would be their intermediate goal for this year. ::)

Just watched BB's presser. A distinct change of tune IMO. I don't think we'll be hearing any more about green shoots - the emphasis is clearly now on winning and NO EXCUSES. We have clearly entered the next stage of our journey.

Exactly the message I got from it as well. Great to hear and you can tell from BB we are past the point of being happy with little signs.

I wasn't particularly disappointed with our performance on Thursday night, beating the reigning premiers was always going to be a tough ask even after kicking the first 5 goals. I knew the tiggers were eventually going to wake up and when they did, their bigger and more seasoned bodies bullied their way back into the game. Nevertheless, a good effort and heaps of positives to take away.

I’ll start off by saying that Prince Charles is going to be something special, most of us already know this but I wasn’t expecting such a dominant performance so early in his career. Kennedy did some good things during his time on the ground, I think he can fill the Gibbs void. Cripps was in beast mode all night, didn’t know he was such a good contested mark but needs to work on his decision making and disposal (missed a sitter during a crucial stage of the game). I thought captain Murphy was inspirational and fearless at times, Daisy was excellent and performances like this will be invaluable for the youngsters, Marchbank was sensational in the backline with a some inspiring intercept marks, Liam Jones continues to impress and should of been awarded at least one free kick for being tunnelled twice, the ageless Simpson was solid as usual and Garlett was brilliant and will be our best recruit this season.

Now for the critics on the night and one in particular was when the tiggers finally woke up (after being awarded a free goal by the umpires), we should of focused on stopping their momentum by slowing down the tempo but we continued to play a fast, counter-attacking style (inexperience maybe?) that resulted in turnovers and goals. Weltering, Silvagni and Casboult all had shockers and should consider themselves lucky if they aren't dropped. Having said that, was Casboult used as a decoy to take Rance out of the game?  

Really need to beat the Suns next week otherwise these positives will be quickly forgotten.

Brownlow votes should look like this;
3 Dustin Martin (only because they won)  - 2 Patrick Cripps (BOG) - 1 Charlie Curnow

Go Blues.

And yeah, Murphy played well in H1, without being dominant and Weiters wasn't that bad. Jack struggled to get involved but that happens sometime and other forwards were getting the job done...

Yeah, too many people look at the moment then judge a player instead of the whole chain of play, many of our bad parts Thursday night were not as bad as some like to make out.

More of a concern for me is some of the long-standing repeat offenders. I'm sure in the past some posters have used our slow transition and game style as an excuse for some, but what is the excuse for last Thursday night?

On the flip side, the irony is not lost on me that Thursday's fast paced game saw Daisy as one of the four quarter contributors! Yet he still gets very little love! :o

The minute he joined Carlton his career would be cruelled by penalties for high contact, you can absolutely back it in!

And the windpipe crushers would become the chicken wing (that applies to CFC but nobody thereafter) :-\

And the windpipe crushers would become the chicken wing (that applies to CFC but nobody thereafter) :-\

We joke about this, especially when I post because I've been tagged by a few as a conspiracy theorist, but in recent weeks there have been some clear examples that other posters have highlighted.

It should be a joke, but it isn't!

I wasn't particularly disappointed with our performance on Thursday night, beating the reigning premiers was always going to be a tough ask even after kicking the first 5 goals. I knew the tiggers were eventually going to wake up and when they did, their bigger and more seasoned bodies bullied their way back into the game. Nevertheless, a good effort and heaps of positives to take away.

I’ll start off by saying that Prince Charles is going to be something special, most of us already know this but I wasn’t expecting such a dominant performance so early in his career. Kennedy did some good things during his time on the ground, I think he can fill the Gibbs void. Cripps was in beast mode all night, didn’t know he was such a good contested mark but needs to work on his decision making and disposal (missed a sitter during a crucial stage of the game). I thought captain Murphy was inspirational and fearless at times, Daisy was excellent and performances like this will be invaluable for the youngsters, Marchbank was sensational in the backline with a some inspiring intercept marks, Liam Jones continues to impress and should of been awarded at least one free kick for being tunnelled twice, the ageless Simpson was solid as usual and Garlett was brilliant and will be our best recruit this season.

Now for the critics on the night and one in particular was when the tiggers finally woke up (after being awarded a free goal by the umpires), we should of focused on stopping their momentum by slowing down the tempo but we continued to play a fast, counter-attacking style (inexperience maybe?) that resulted in turnovers and goals. Weltering, Silvagni and Casboult all had shockers and should consider themselves lucky if they aren't dropped. Having said that, was Casboult used as a decoy to take Rance out of the game?  

Really need to beat the Suns next week otherwise these positives will be quickly forgotten.

Brownlow votes should look like this;
3 Dustin Martin (only because they won)  - 2 Patrick Cripps (BOG) - 1 Charlie Curnow

Go Blues.

Good post.

Martin wasn't best on ground, other than that, totally agree.

Cripps was best on ground, but would not be even slightly surprised if Dusty gets the 3 Brownlow votes

Martin wasn't best on ground, other than that, totally agree.

If you giving votes purely on stats then Crippa gets the 3 votes.

If you give to the most damaging player on the ground then Martin get it.

His touches hurt the opposition as its usually forward of centre so many of them, result in a lot of scoring. Cripps was amazing in an undermanned midfield - won the contested ball time and time again but as much as it pains me to admit it Martin is more damaging of the 2 players.

Still love our boy but  ;)

 

Whoever was on Rance - sometime cas sometimes Jack immediately went to the goal square. He only had 3 marks and 15 pos and wasn't really a factor in the game.

If they lost Martin they miss finals. Not just his possessions but all those B graders in their team gain confidence off him.

If you giving votes purely on stats then Crippa gets the 3 votes.

Cripps got a heap of footy but wasted a fair bit of it, yet he was clearly our best.

I don't think there was a clear BoG, but Dusty and Cripps are probably the two front runners. We shouldn't deny just how good Martin is in contested football, we rave about Cripps working inside, Martin is just as good if not better when one on one.

We need blokes to aspire to it, not deny it!

It looks like modern tactics are going to result in players racking up possessions, but that won't always mean they are BoG. If Charlie had kicked those five goals without the 50m penalty assistance he'd probably be a clear BoG.

Martin had 20 kicks and I can hardly remember him missing a target. Cripps rarely gets the ball in open space, but in general play his kicking is no where near as accurate or creative as Dusty.

He had 13 score involvements - Cripps had 4. There's your answer there in terms of impact. he was also very influential in the last qtr.

I have no love for Dusty but he has turned himself into a very good footballer. His foot skills and kicking penetration is better than any other midfielder.

I think we all need to remember that we have lost 2 of our top 5 players from last years list - this is a massive hole in skills and experience that we just can't fill overnight. We got beaten in the i50's by 24 and lost the tackle count by 20, and they had 16 more scoring shots. On any normal day that would lead to a 10-12 goal belting. There were some highly encouraging individual performances, but equally a bunch of really poor performances as well. Mullet and Bryne are both huge worries for me at this point.

I wasn't particularly disappointed with our performance on Thursday night, beating the reigning premiers was always going to be a tough ask even after kicking the first 5 goals. I knew the tiggers were eventually going to wake up and when they did, their bigger and more seasoned bodies bullied their way back into the game. Nevertheless, a good effort and heaps of positives to take away.

I’ll start off by saying that Prince Charles is going to be something special, most of us already know this but I wasn’t expecting such a dominant performance so early in his career. Kennedy did some good things during his time on the ground, I think he can fill the Gibbs void. Cripps was in beast mode all night, didn’t know he was such a good contested mark but needs to work on his decision making and disposal (missed a sitter during a crucial stage of the game). I thought captain Murphy was inspirational and fearless at times, Daisy was excellent and performances like this will be invaluable for the youngsters, Marchbank was sensational in the backline with a some inspiring intercept marks, Liam Jones continues to impress and should of been awarded at least one free kick for being tunnelled twice, the ageless Simpson was solid as usual and Garlett was brilliant and will be our best recruit this season.

Now for the critics on the night and one in particular was when the tiggers finally woke up (after being awarded a free goal by the umpires), we should of focused on stopping their momentum by slowing down the tempo but we continued to play a fast, counter-attacking style (inexperience maybe?) that resulted in turnovers and goals. Weltering, Silvagni and Casboult all had shockers and should consider themselves lucky if they aren't dropped. Having said that, was Casboult used as a decoy to take Rance out of the game?  

Really need to beat the Suns next week otherwise these positives will be quickly forgotten.

Brownlow votes should look like this;
3 Dustin Martin (only because they won)  - 2 Patrick Cripps (BOG) - 1 Charlie Curnow

Go Blues.

Good post Yark

For mine there's one point of difference.
With or without my Navy glasses, Crippa was BOG and should get 3 Brownlow votes. I know votes are biased heavily towards the winning side.

Not sure if this is a standard that umpires apply. Comments invited from our gurus O:-)

Agree mostly Sbf, but Mullet was a free hit and a decent kick. Handy depth at best and don't worry about Casey Byrne, the kid will be alright. Just needs to pick and choose when he defends and attacks a little better. I personally think he was trying too hard and not playing his natural game.

When he plays on instinct and relaxes a little more and gains some confidence in the ones he won't be getting complained about.

I keep hearing all of this hype regarding Byrne...
I'm yet to see him do anything remotely close to deserving the hype. Just can't understand where it comes from.

Martin had 20 kicks and I can hardly remember him missing a target. Cripps rarely gets the ball in open space, but in general play his kicking is no where near as accurate or creative as Dusty.

He had 13 score involvements - Cripps had 4. There's your answer there in terms of impact. he was also very influential in the last qtr.

I have no love for Dusty but he has turned himself into a very good footballer. His foot skills and kicking penetration is better than any other midfielder.

I think we all need to remember that we have lost 2 of our top 5 players from last years list - this is a massive hole in skills and experience that we just can't fill overnight. We got beaten in the i50's by 24 and lost the tackle count by 20, and they had 16 more scoring shots. On any normal day that would lead to a 10-12 goal belting. There were some highly encouraging individual performances, but equally a bunch of really poor performances as well. Mullet and Bryne are both huge worries for me at this point.

Way off the mark. Did you watch the game SBF?

Martin barely played inside. More as a roaming high half forward. And again, I have no idea who was playing on him (maybe it was to be the injured Kennedy?) I certainly saw no meaningful effort to tag him! 13 scoring assists - even more reason to tag him!!!

Any comparison with Cripps is meaningless - entirely different roles.

Not to mention Dusty is 4 years older. Age for age comparison, Cripps is light years ahead.

I50s - well, we coughed the ball up so frequently coming out of D50, no surprises the count was askew.

Tackle count - well, we would have missed 40 tackles as we tired due to being 1-2 players down most of the match. That was a bigger factor than not having Gibbs and Docherty.

And let's not forget we've also added guys like Kennedy (who will be a star), Lang and Garlett - all of whom have previous AFL experience and will be regular first 22 in weeks to come. And Gibbs never struck me as a team first type, good riddance quite frankly.

Scoring shots, a lot of forced behinds and arrogant pot shots from the Tiges - they were not inaccurate as such.

As for Yarak's comment:

we continued to play a fast, counter-attacking style (inexperience maybe?) that resulted in turnovers and goals

on the money. We didn't know when to switch tempo and often over played situations (read tried to be too cute). Our new game plan is still being refined and indeed, practised. The scores (to Tigers) from turnovers was truly abysmal.

We'll beat them next time, don't sweat it.

I keep hearing all of this hype regarding Byrne...
I'm yet to see him do anything remotely close to deserving the hype. Just can't understand where it comes from.

If you saw him play before his knee injury, you would understand the hype and then some. The pace, in particular, the decent disposal, the marking: it was all there.
Since he returned he hasn't shown the same pace and his skills have been down. His decision making has not been optima either.  :(  :-[ What he really needs at this point is a couple of weeks in the VFL to gain his confidence again. At the moment I don't think anyone trusts his skills like they did. He needs to be prepared to handball, rather than break tackles and he needs to hit the tackler at pace, or with a 'don't argue', so the tackles don't stick. It isn't a lot, but he needs to work on the details of his game.
I don't mind taking guys on if he is going to break the tackle. At the moment he is not. He should have a few good sessions with Andrew McKay, who used to do the same thing. He needs to make sure his hands are free is he is tackled, and he needs to equipment to break the tackles, neither of which is impossible. As he gains more confidence in his knee, I hope to see him not slow down before the tackle, but to really run guys down.
Working on his decision making would also help.

Yeah, too many people look at the moment then judge a player instead of the whole chain of play, many of our bad parts Thursday night were not as bad as some like to make out.

More of a concern for me is some of the long-standing repeat offenders. I'm sure in the past some posters have used our slow transition and game style as an excuse for some, but what is the excuse for last Thursday night?

On the flip side, the irony is not lost on me that Thursday's fast paced game saw Daisy as one of the four quarter contributors! Yet he still gets very little love! :o

After watching and painfully re-watching the game I'll make the following observations:

1. Expectations. We just played last years premiers. We were a bottom team in 2017, traded out Gibbs, no Docherty and Kreuzer went down. Played a lot of young guys too. We fought hard and pushed them but  lets be realistic in 2018.

2. There were 2 turning points in this match. First was Richmonds first goal from Jack when he got in got in the backline' faces and although they fought back they then collectively lost their focus and dropped down a gear. Second was Kreuzer going down. We stopped being as competitive in the ruck after that and missed his second efforts.

3. I get the criticism of Weitering. He had a shocker but I'm more critical of Plowman. He's had more time in the afl system but continues to miss tackles, get out of position and get beaten too easily. I can't figure out if he's trying to be a half back or play tall and gets caught not quite doing either. I agree we picked the wrong line up for this match, but I'd have gone with Weitering and dropped Mr Plow for a smaller more mobile defender.

I also get the criticism of Silvagni, not a great game but to be fair he did seem to spend a lot of time being manned by Rance and dragging him away. I think that says more about what Richmond think of Casboult.

4. When we executed the more attacking game plan it seemed to work well. Getting it forward to Charlie quickly was just inspiring. But, once we got tired and the work rate dropped the overlapping run ended and we resorted back to long kicks to contests or just kicking in hope. They had the fitness edge to keep running harder late and we couldn't keep up.

5. Our skills still need work. Especially tackling.

6. Welcome back to the afl Jarred Garlett. 17 touches and 2 goals after a year out is a fair return.

Did any of those underground handpasses come off :-\?

Got to disagree re Plowman. Did a lot of hard running away from the ball to cover teammates, is very smart and exactly what we need given how we are trying to defend. I haven't watched the replay but I'm pretty sure his best work wouldn't have been on the screen

Got to disagree re Plowman. Did a lot of hard running away from the ball to cover teammates, is very smart and exactly what we need given how we are trying to defend. I haven't watched the replay but I'm pretty sure his best work wouldn't have been on the screen

I agree re Plowman. Everyone has Thursday's game in mind, but overall I rate him higher than Marchy.

I also get the criticism of Silvagni, not a great game but to be fair he did seem to spend a lot of time being manned by Rance and dragging him away. I think that says more about what Richmond think of Casboult.

Look out, that'll attract some special attention!

I agree re Plowman. Everyone has Thursday's game in mind, but overall I rate him higher than Marchy.

They are the dynamic duo that almost always perform their role to little fan fare.

I rate both very highly, but Marchbank has the edge on Plowman. He plays taller and gets across for more intercept marks.

Both are underrated by opposition and carlton fans alike.

They are the dynamic duo that almost always perform their role to little fan fare.

I rate both very highly, but Marchbank has the edge on Plowman. He plays taller and gets across for more intercept marks.

Both are underrated by opposition and carlton fans alike.

At the moment Marchbank lacks a little bit of physicality relative to Plowman. I realise not everyone can be physically intimidating, but it's useful if your taller heavier players are the ones handing out the physical punishment.

I was miffed when Jones made that fantastic spoil on Dusty and didn't knock hammer him in the process.

AFL needs to look out for tunnelling IMO... our blokes had this done to them many times on Thursday night.

At the moment Marchbank lacks a little bit of physicality relative to Plowman. I realise not everyone can be physically intimidating, but it's useful if your taller heavier players are the ones handing out the physical punishment.

Marchbank is not the enforcer type for sure. But he doesn't shy away from anything physical either. He puts his body on the line when required, tackles and smothers like you'd hope. He doesn't go out of his way to intimidate opposition players, but does he need to? He is your more cool, calm and collected type who can be relied upon under pressure.

The more physical, intimidating types play more on the edge and make more mistakes as a result IMO.

Agree re tunnelling, happened more than a few times, including a bizarre one in the forward pocket when Cotchin got a free kick for tunnelling???

Well, Richmonds premiership hangover lasted  for about 12 minutes I reckon, after that they were white hot for the rest of the game. We did well to get the jump on them and then hang on til 3qtr time or a little later.

The Tigers will be a top 4 side again this year, and if they play like they did on Thursday night every week, I reckon 26 points will be 1 of their smaller winning margins too, they are going to be hard to beat.

Our 1st 10-12 minutes was scintillating, and showed what we are capable of when allowed to play offensively.
When our initial intensity dropped off, The Tigers lifted theirs and never took their foot off for the rest of the game.

We will have to learn to keep our intensity for a lot longer, and/or get a lot better at playing tempo footy.

Cripps was immense in this game and put Dusty in the shade, Cripps is a superstar and would probably get a lot more recognition if he played for a different club.

Simmo also played a great game, he made a couple of errors, but without him things would have been a whole lot  worse.

Charlie had a breakout game, with hopefully many more to come, but this game should really boost his confidence.

A top game from Matty Wright too, 5 goals as a small forward is a great reward for the hard working little fella.

also liked what I saw from Garlett, who did not look out of place on the big stage, not did Kennedy until he went down.

SPS had a good 1st qtr, but I thought Fisher was the best of all the younger guys out there. I didn't notice Dow hardly at all, but the experience will be invaluable for him.

Marchbank and Plowman while not perfect are both very reliable in the roles in the back half. 

We had too many players have poor/average games to deserve a win and we will need to lift as a whole as well as a more even performance over 4 qtrs to be a chance to win next week.

Go Blues.

That rubbish free to Riewoldt completely changed the momentum of the game.  One more goal and I reckon the tiges would have been sweating.

He should be done for staging as it is, it was blatant.

Well, Richmonds premiership hangover lasted  for about 12 minutes I reckon, after that they were white hot for the rest of the game. We did well to get the jump on them and then hang on til 3qtr time or a little later.

The Tigers will be a top 4 side again this year, and if they play like they did on Thursday night every week, I reckon 26 points will be 1 of their smaller winning margins too, they are going to be hard to beat.

Our 1st 10-12 minutes was scintillating, and showed what we are capable of when allowed to play offensively.
When our initial intensity dropped off, The Tigers lifted theirs and never took their foot off for the rest of the game.

We will have to learn to keep our intensity for a lot longer, and/or get a lot better at playing tempo footy.

Cripps was immense in this game and put Dusty in the shade, Cripps is a superstar and would probably get a lot more recognition if he played for a different club.

Simmo also played a great game, he made a couple of errors, but without him things would have been a whole lot  worse.

Charlie had a breakout game, with hopefully many more to come, but this game should really boost his confidence.

A top game from Matty Wright too, 5 goals as a small forward is a great reward for the hard working little fella.

also liked what I saw from Garlett, who did not look out of place on the big stage, not did Kennedy until he went down.

SPS had a good 1st qtr, but I thought Fisher was the best of all the younger guys out there. I didn't notice Dow hardly at all, but the experience will be invaluable for him.

Marchbank and Plowman while not perfect are both very reliable in the roles in the back half. 

We had too many players have poor/average games to deserve a win and we will need to lift as a whole as well as a more even performance over 4 qtrs to be a chance to win next week.

Go Blues.

I agree with all of this, well said. I think the bottom line is we need our bottom 6 to be better

That rubbish free to Riewoldt completely changed the momentum of the game.  One more goal and I reckon the tiges would have been sweating.

He should be done for staging as it is, it was blatant.

Agree Jack's a queen of the stage that's for sure.

Not sure if I'm thinking about the same incident, but I saw a definite shift. It was around subsequent errant Daisy decisions. The first free for illegal disposal ended in a goal. He clearly handballed legally  :-\
The second was an excellent low mark not paid. I guess it must have been the deny Daisy quarter  >:D
I heard a similar error was reversed in another game. That said the Tigers were unlucky with the protected zone rule. Dumb not to play to the umps call but unlucky just the same.

As someone said, if that's the difference between the premiers and our young side, we've come along nicely.

Martin and Caddy again showed we lack the physicality we need to stop these types influencing games...too many of our players throw one arm out only when tackling and I actually saw 3 players try and tackle Caddy and he shrugged them off to get the ball away..

Martin and Caddy again showed we lack the physicality we need to stop these types influencing games...too many of our players throw one arm out only when tackling and I actually saw 3 players try and tackle Caddy and he shrugged them off to get the ball away..

I would suggest both Cripps and Kennedy would eat Caddy for breakfast....

Just rotten luck BAM bAM went down so early in the game.

Martin and Caddy again showed we lack the physicality we need to stop these types influencing games...too many of our players throw one arm out only when tackling and I actually saw 3 players try and tackle Caddy and he shrugged them off to get the ball away..

Firstly, can you name any player who can go man on man with Martin on his day?

Secondly, should we consider the flip side, why can't some of our near 200cm type powerhouse icons like Cripps or Casboult shrug off tackling players like that?

I think I've seen Williamson and Macreadie shrug off more players in just a handful of games than Casboult has in a decade! What is it that our club lacks, either in training or attitude that seems to leave us with this shortfall? it cannot be strength training, doesn't Casboult hold some sort of AFL bench press record? So it must be above the shoulders.

Couple of key moments in the 3rd quarter:

1. About 15m mark (remaining). Paddy Wow receives a handball and is clear running into an open goal about 35m out. Sprays it...oobf. Would have been a 10 point lead.

2. About 5m later Weitering has the ball on the left wing (free or a mark...), the dumbo Tigers guy runs too close behind and it's 50m awarded. Weiters should have been about 30-35m out but the ump gives a short 50. Weiters sprays it.

3. Few minutes later. Marchbank gets tackled around the neck, no free. Throw up or whatever. Richmond score... WHEN mARCHbank would have pumped it into our I50.

And by God, how biased are the comme ntators, putrid.

And not one mention of the effect of losing Kennedy (effectively before quarter time) would have on our rotations....

Contrast to the PEDs game last night when Merrett went down, every second comment was on that very topic.

Now for the last quarter,

Agree re tunnelling, happened more than a few times, including a bizarre one in the forward pocket when Cotchin got a free kick for tunnelling???

That was so blatant yet the ump missed it   >:D  >:D  >:D  >:D  >:D

That was so blatant yet the ump missed it   >:D  >:D  >:D  >:D  >:D

He didn't miss it, he gave the free to Cotchin. ::)

And not one mention of the effect of losing Kennedy (effectively before quarter time) would have on our rotations....

Contrast to the PEDs game last night when Merrett went down, every second comment was on that very topic.

Now for the last quarter,

This goes to show who is the favourite and who is not. Disgraceful.

This goes to show who is the favourite and who is not. Disgraceful.

Project "Resurrect the Bummers" in full swing!  ::)

Back to the game.

It was a very even contest. Even at the start of the 4th.

We ran out of gas....not surprising in the circumstances - no kennedy, Kreuz down, Dow a bit lost in his first real game....

Anyone who thinks Dusty had a better (or more influential) game than Cripps, well...need I say?

That said, can't fathom why Daisy wasn't paid more attention by someone on our team...

Guys like Lamb and SOJ found it hard to get involved but that happens sometimes. Like others, was a good chance for Bolts to throw Jack in the guts, but alas.

Didn't think Weitering or Murphy were bad at all.

Some of the turnovers we coughed up, nothing the defence could have done....

Portends well for a great season.

Very, very impressed with Cripps, Marchbank, Plow, Garlett (of the young/new guys). Charlie too, of course...

Kennedy too had a real influence before being injured.

Need to win next week!

Project "Resurrect the Bummers" in full swing!  ::)

That will be followed by the magnificent Melbourne charge to the top.
This narrative thing is really starting to become predictable. What a worry.

Back to the game.

It was a very even contest. Even at the start of the 4th.

We ran out of gas....not surprising in the circumstances - no kennedy, Kreuz down, Dow a bit lost in his first real game....

Anyone who thinks Daisy had a better (or more influential) game than Cripps, well...need I say?

That said, can't fathom why Daisy wasn't paid more attention by someone on our team...

Guys like Lamb and SOJ found it hard to get involved but that happens sometimes. Like others, was a good chance for Bolts to throw Jack in the guts, but alas.

Didn't think Weitering or Murphy were bad at all.

Some of the turnovers we coughed up, nothing the defence could have done....

Portends well for a great season.

Very, very impressed with Cripps, Marchbank, Plow, Garlett (of the young/new guys). Charlie too, of course...

Kennedy too had a real influence before being injured.

Need to win next week!

It's amazing how different the game can look when in the absence of initial emotions the replay highlights the stupidity of the commentary team.

Back to the game.

It was a very even contest. Even at the start of the 4th.

We ran out of gas....not surprising in the circumstances - no kennedy, Kreuz down, Dow a bit lost in his first real game....

Anyone who thinks Dusty had a better (or more influential) game than Cripps, well...need I say?

That said, can't fathom why Daisy wasn't paid more attention by someone on our team...

Guys like Lamb and SOJ found it hard to get involved but that happens sometimes. Like others, was a good chance for Bolts to throw Jack in the guts, but alas.

Didn't think Weitering or Murphy were bad at all.

Some of the turnovers we coughed up, nothing the defence could have done....

Portends well for a great season.

Very, very impressed with Cripps, Marchbank, Plow, Garlett (of the young/new guys). Charlie too, of course...

Kennedy too had a real influence before being injured.

Need to win next week!

That's where we should be focused. Clean up those mistakes and put a bit more tempo footy into our game, periodically defend and focus on closing down the opposition. We played into the Tiger's paws a bit by trying to go all out attack for too long. They love the rebound style and are good at it.

Bolts spoke of our need to vary the tempo in response to the flow of the game. An area we need to experience and practice as a new team. That's our first game together following massive list change. The tigers on the other hand have been doing it together for some time. Save the odd addition of a role player. With some match experience and guidance from the older guys, I expect this will come together this year.

Bolts spoke of our need to vary the tempo in response to the flow of the game. An area we need to experience and practice as a new team. That's our first game together following massive list change. The tigers on the other hand have been doing it together for some time. Save the odd addition of a role player. With some match experience and guidance from the older guys, I expect this will come together this year.

I think you're right LN - we got a bit of a schooling from the Tiger's game on the value of this for sure.

Back to the game.

It was a very even contest. Even at the start of the 4th.

We ran out of gas....not surprising in the circumstances - no kennedy, Kreuz down, Dow a bit lost in his first real game....

Anyone who thinks Dusty had a better (or more influential) game than Cripps, well...need I say?

That said, can't fathom why Daisy wasn't paid more attention by someone on our team...

Guys like Lamb and SOJ found it hard to get involved but that happens sometimes. Like others, was a good chance for Bolts to throw Jack in the guts, but alas.

Didn't think Weitering or Murphy were bad at all.

Some of the turnovers we coughed up, nothing the defence could have done....

Portends well for a great season.

Very, very impressed with Cripps, Marchbank, Plow, Garlett (of the young/new guys). Charlie too, of course...

Kennedy too had a real influence before being injured.

Need to win next week!

Dusty has that ability to lift his teammates with a big play...think thats what makes him so dangerous as he actually changes the momentum of a game...Cripps is super consistent but Martin has that game changer gear.....

Dusty has that ability to lift his teammates with a big play...think thats what makes him so dangerous as he actually changes the momentum of a game...Cripps is super consistent but Martin has that game changer gear.....

Agree EB. Martin has just had one of the best seasons ever by any AFL/VFL player. Not sure why we're comparing him to Cripps. Cripps is a clearance machine with good leadership who can drift forward and kick a goal. Dusty is the whole package.

At this stage, even though Cripps is an excellent player, Dusty in my book is far more dangerous and damaging. Dusty has that sheer animal presence that Cripps doesn't and he makes other players think twice when they are near him! A huge advantage in my book.

At this stage, even though Cripps is an excellent player, Dusty in my book is far more dangerous and damaging. Dusty has that sheer animal presence that Cripps doesn't and he makes other players think twice when they are near him! A huge advantage in my book.

Agree..no one wants to tackle him and I feel Caddy is his partner in crime in this area, like to see someone drop Caddy and put him back in his place, he gets away with plenty due
to his physical approach but I dont think he is a great footballer like Dusty is...Caddy just annoys me more when he throws his weight around and we back off...

Stick Dusty in our side and he'd be back with the pack very smartly  :)

Comparing Dusty and Cripps is the quintessential apples and oranges comparison.  Dusty is a forward/midfielder as his running patterns show; half of his time on the ground is spent in the forward 50.  Cripps, for all the talk about him going forward, is a midfielder who excels in extracting the ball at stoppages and outmarking virtually anyone who goes against him.

Dusty has great strength that he uses to advantage and will continue to do so until opposition players learn how to counter his stiff arm.  Cripps is also a very strong player but he is more subtle with his use of strength and prefers to put a step on opponents.

I don't believe the hype about players not wanting to tackle Dusty; Samo would smash him into the ground if he got the opportunity.  It's more about learning how to deal with an unorthodox playing style.  If I was coaching, I'd have a couple of League players as tackling dummies in the week leading up to our next Tigers game.

Stick Dusty in our side and he'd be back with the pack very smartly  :)

Comparing Dusty and Cripps is the quintessential apples and oranges comparison.  Dusty is a forward/midfielder as his running patterns show; half of his time on the ground is spent in the forward 50.  Cripps, for all the talk about him going forward, is a midfielder who excels in extracting the ball at stoppages and outmarking virtually anyone who goes against him.

Dusty has great strength that he uses to advantage and will continue to do so until opposition players learn how to counter his stiff arm.  Cripps is also a very strong player but he is more subtle with his use of strength and prefers to put a step on opponents.

I don't believe the hype about players not wanting to tackle Dusty; Samo would smash him into the ground if he got the opportunity.  It's more about learning how to deal with an unorthodox playing style.  If I was coaching, I'd have a couple of League players as tackling dummies in the week leading up to our next Tigers game.

As I said Dusty has an animal presence that I don't currently see in any of our guys, Cripps included, and it's very powerful, almost intimidating. And btw, I actually saw Dusty sweep past Samo with majestic ease without using the fend off. I was quite taken aback. I agree, we do need to work on our tackling, Dusty or no Dusty.

@DJC "Samo would smash him into the ground if he got the opportunity"

As Samo smashed Caddy >:D
Unfortunately he got done for slinging if I recall correctly.
One thing's for sure, Samo showed no fear of Dusty. I think we've got Gibbs to thank for that.... remember when Gibbs backed away from the thundering Dusty, encouraging young Samo to "go get him son"

Samo has an unorthodox box of tricks himself. Just a matter of time before he smashes him IMO  ;D

Ironically I think dale Thomas got him in a half decent tackle on Thursday.   Forced an errant disposal from dusty on the wing. 

Ironically I think dale Thomas got him in a half decent tackle on Thursday.   Forced an errant disposal from dusty on the wing.

Just lucky I suppose! ::)

@DJC "Samo would smash him into the ground if he got the opportunity"

As Samo smashed Caddy >:D
Unfortunately he got done for slinging if I recall correctly.
One thing's for sure, Samo showed no fear of Dusty. I think we've got Gibbs to thank for that.... remember when Gibbs backed away from the thundering Dusty, encouraging young Samo to "go get him son"

Samo has an unorthodox box of tricks himself. Just a matter of time before he smashes him IMO  ;D

And can't wait...reckon Dusty is more hype than reality....

To say "Martin has just had one of the best seasons ever by any AFL/VFL player" (Paul P) is simply emotive BS....

Dangerfield is an infinitely better player.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=10&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=2310&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2017&fid2=P&fopt2=2017 (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=10&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=2310&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2017&fid2=P&fopt2=2017)

And Cripps re Dusty. Sure a comparison that can't be made but let's remember Dusty has had four more years in the system.

Yet in 2016, Dusty barely pips Cripps (on stats). Cripps was 20 odd.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=3930&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2016&fid2=P&fopt2=2016 (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=3930&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2016&fid2=P&fopt2=2016)

And can't wait...reckon Dusty is more hype than reality....

To say "Martin has just had one of the best seasons ever by any AFL/VFL player" (Paul P) is simply emotive BS....

Dangerfield is an infinitely better player.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=10&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=2310&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2017&fid2=P&fopt2=2017 (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=10&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=2310&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2017&fid2=P&fopt2=2017)

And Cripps re Dusty. Sure a comparison that can't be made but let's remember Dusty has had four more years in the system.

Yet in 2016, Dusty barely pips Cripps (on stats). Cripps was 20 odd.

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=3930&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2016&fid2=P&fopt2=2016 (https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=15&type=A&pid1=3930&pid2=3316&fid1=P&fopt1=2016&fid2=P&fopt2=2016)

Dusty's 2017 in a nutshell, but hey, what do I know ?

- AFL Players Association MVP (Leigh Matthews trophy)

- The AFL Coaches Association champion player of the year award

- All Australian selection (his second)

- Brownlow medal

- Premiership medal

- Norm Smith medal

- Gary Ayres Medal

And also the Jack Dyer medal, which I forgot to mention.

Houli was a far more influential player in the GF - and the deserved Norm Smith winner - but the afl wanted some more Dusty hype...  so voila!

Dusty gets marked down because of the tatts, bad boy dad, and company he keeps but he is a hell of a footballer and has burnt us for about 4 years in a row now......
Dangerfield is a much more likeable, cleanskin, thrilling player to watch but Martin is just as effective if you look at the results and not just the packaging he comes in...

Just lucky I suppose! ::)

You know the old saying LP.  Even a broken clock is right twice a day!!!

 ;D

Dusty's 2017 in a nutshell, but hey, what do I know ?

- AFL Players Association MVP (Leigh Matthews trophy)

- The AFL Coaches Association champion player of the year award

- All Australian selection (his second)

- Brownlow medal

- Premiership medal

- Norm Smith medal

- Gary Ayres Medal

Can I have some of that hype? :o

Can I have some of that hype? :o

You'll have to talk to our good friend flyboy.

You'll have to talk to our good friend flyboy.

So Flyboy is my hype dealer.

Pssssst, Flyboy, got any to spare? ;D

Dusty gets marked down because of the tatts, bad boy dad, and company he keeps but he is a hell of a footballer and has burnt us for about 4 years in a row now......
Dangerfield is a much more likeable, cleanskin, thrilling player to watch but Martin is just as effective if you look at the results and not just the packaging he comes in...

Completely disagree, I hate Dangerfield. Flog of the highest order.
Dusty I can cop.

Completely disagree, I hate Dangerfield. Flog of the highest order.
Dusty I can cop.

Judd described Dusty as a Zen Master, he mentioned that some on the inside of football rate him even higher than the very best of Ablett Jnr.

IMHO, Dangerfield is nowhere near the ball user that Martin is, Dangerfield's modus operandi is all too often to win contested possession, which he does almost to perfection, but then boot the ball 60m to a contest.

Dusty wins the contested footy, then hits the team-mate on the chest Sam Mitchell style, without leaving the hot zone!

In some respects Judd himself was a sort of middle ground between those two extremes. Closer to Martin in ball use, and easily as explosive as Dangerfield.

As much as I'd love to bag out "Chopsticks", he's a mighty mighty footballer!

Completely disagree, I hate Dangerfield. Flog of the highest order.
Dusty I can cop.

I think the majority of the public would pick Dangerfield as the man they would want in their team and a lot of that is to do with his clean, good boy image.....Martins football is comparable and IMO better in terms of what he offers but he would be seen by a lot of people as a DH who Richmond have had to pander too..
Dangerfield went to Geelong for 800k a year, thats humble pickings for a flog......

I think the majority of the public would pick Dangerfield as the man they would want in their team and a lot of that is to do with his clean, good boy image.....Martins football is comparable and IMO better in terms of what he offers but he would be seen by a lot of people as a DH who Richmond have had to pander too..
Dangerfield went to Geelong for 800k a year, thats humble pickings for a flog......

Agree. I'd be happy with either, but Danger tried to do the right thing by both the Crows and Cats. Tried to ensure the Crows were fairly compensated, and busted his gut for them right up till the last second of his last match. And went to the Cats on very reasonable coin, given his status in the game.

And went to the Cats on very reasonable coin, given his status in the game.

If you accept that is all he get$, which we accept as the current truth, but we probably know it's eventually going to be a lie!

Sinner now and Saint later, or the reverse!

Interesting the coaches gave Cripps maximum 10 votes for BoG as part of the AFLCA voting.

It sort of tells you what the coaches value! Most of the media had Dusty the clear BoG, many of us here thought it was a line ball!

Dusty was given 7, Simmo got 6.

PDF of votes is HERE (http://www.aflca.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/_temp_/Votes_2018/Shadforth_Financial_Group_AFLCA_Champion_Player_Votes_-_Rd_1__2018_01.pdf)

Interesting the coaches gave Cripps maximum 10 votes for BoG as part of the AFLCA voting.

It sort of tells you what the coaches value! Most of the media had Dusty the clear BoG, many of us here thought it was a line ball!

Dusty was given 7, Simmo got 6.

PDF of votes is HERE (http://www.aflca.com.au/fileadmin/user_upload/_temp_/Votes_2018/Shadforth_Financial_Group_AFLCA_Champion_Player_Votes_-_Rd_1__2018_01.pdf)

I had Crippa as BoG.  While I don't get too many correct, I'm pleased to take that one. Onya Crippa. Hat's off to young Simmo too. Only 13 more till our champ gets his ticket to a very exclusive club.

I had Marchbank as a standout and he doesn't get a mention here.

Either I saw a different game, or he wasn't as good as the aforementioned.

I had Marchbank as a standout and he doesn't get a mention here.

Either I saw a different game, or he wasn't as good as the aforementioned.

He gets plenty of votes in the Jim Park thread, and he's been mentioned in this thread numerous times.

Judd described Dusty as a Zen Master, he mentioned that some on the inside of football rate him even higher than the very best of Ablett Jnr.

Jeepers !!!  ........some people have short memories.  If Martin can pay another 8 or 9 seasons at this level, he MIGHT be able to be considered in the same breath as Ablett jnr......whatever you think of him & his later career choices.

Jeepers !!!  ........some people have short memories.  If Martin can pay another 8 or 9 seasons at this level, he MIGHT be able to be considered in the same breath as Ablett jnr......whatever you think of him & his later career choices.

I suppose there is an undercurrent that suggests a lot of Ablett Jnr's possessions are worthless give and gets where he accumulates two or three touches in the space of a few meters, often at the expense of some poor crushed team-mate. I know I always rated Ablett Jnr less than Judd for this very reason.

Judd would win a hard ball at the coal face, draw in opponents, take the heat and release team-mates moving the ball 40m with minimal disposals.

I'd say Martin is closer to Judd in this regard, I don't think Dusty needs any player to sacrificially take the heat for him, neither needed to put some other poor plebe in the hot seat to escape the traffic.

I must admit after he left Geelong, Ablett Jnr became far more Judd like, which I admire. However, he does whinge a lot about the attention he gets, I've never seen Judd or Dusty complain.

Am I being unfair?

I suppose there is an undercurrent that suggests a lot of Ablett Jnr's possessions are worthless give and gets where he accumulates two or three touches in the space of a few meters, often at the expense of some poor crushed team-mate. I know I always rated Ablett Jnr less than Judd for this very reason.

Judd would win a hard ball at the coal face, draw in opponents, take the heat and release team-mates moving the ball 40m with minimal disposals.

I'd say Martin is closer to Judd in this regard, I don't think Dusty needs any player to sacrificially take the heat for him, neither needed to put some other poor plebe in the hot seat to escape the traffic.

I must admit after he left Geelong, Ablett Jnr became far more Judd like, which I admire. However, he does whinge a lot about the attention he gets, I've never seen Judd or Dusty complain.

Am I being unfair?

Nah, I get that....but for just sheer class in terms of his disposal, he outstrips Judd & Martin by a considerable amount.  I used to bemoan Juddys huge efforts to win the ball, but by foot, he did let himself down comparably.  It's all very small degrees though.

Nah, I get that....but for just sheer class in terms of his disposal, he outstrips Judd & Martin by a considerable amount.  I used to bemoan Juddys huge efforts to win the ball, but by foot, he did let himself down comparably.  It's all very small degrees though.

I recall Judd being lauded for his disposal early in his career, it wasn't all about his pace.

Was Judd's apparent weaker ball use later in his career more of a symptom of his heavy battering ram game style?

Has Ablett Jnr's super efficient ball use also tapered off given his change to the heavier game style up north, will it return at Geelong?

Is a big part of the difference a result of outside versus inside possessions?

We cannot use stats for this, because the tell is at the receivers end not the kickers. There is no stat that tells you how easily someone is able to take possession.

Dusty couldn't complain the way he throat chops people trying to tackle him.

The umpires would start penalising him very quickly if he ever turned on them.

Dusty couldn't complain the way he throat chops people trying to tackle him.

The umpires would start penalising him very quickly if he ever turned on them.

But he doesn't complain Thry, that IS the point!

I thought Dimma was very stupid last season when for a time he came out complaining about the oppositions treatment of Dusty. Somebody must have sat Dimma on his ar5e very quickly, because he shut up like someone had turned the lights out! Bada Bing, bada boom, Dusty wins a Brownlow Judd style!

My only concern, our own man Marc Murphy never complains, yet he gets very little respect or reward for just cracking in. Compare that to Cotchin!