Carlton Supporters Club

The end of season can't come quick enough.

The end of season can't come quick enough.

Mine comes earlier. Go to Europe in a few weeks. Leave the $hit to you guys..lol.

3rd 10+ goal belting in a row....Bolts has to be feeling the pressure surely?

Mine comes earlier. Go to Europe in a few weeks. Leave the $hit to you guys..lol.

Gee, thanks. If the old Carlton gods get their way, we might have a new coach when you return.

3rd 10+ goal belting in a row....Bolts has to be feeling the pressure surely?

3 week we’ve lost a player early in the first quarter and ?? time we’ve ended with 2 on the bench. Observation rather than an excuse.

3rd 10+ goal belting in a row....Bolts has to be feeling the pressure surely?

There has to be changes in approach to our coaching , what we are doing isn't working, injuries don't help, but we show some green shoots, problem is they don't matt to become grass.

3 week we’ve lost a player early in the first quarter and ?? time we’ve ended with 2 on the bench. Observation rather than an excuse.

We usually a $hitload behind though before that takes effect. Think it's time to go for Bolts.

Bolton is inept tactically, why you wouldnt tag Mitchell is beyond me and its not the first time he has done this......Ed Curnow on Issac Smith when he should have been on Mitchell....think the latter had about 11-12 scoring involvements as well.
Hawks are not that good we are just as inept in the coaches box as on the ground......

Weitering played his best game for a while and apart from one or two mistakes was good today...
Harry needs new boots.....
Kennedy battled on after a poor start where his disposal was terrible but he did improve...
Polson...not a fan but he had a better game and tried...unlucky with that last tackle on him that was high IMO....
Lobbe...did well and gives some leadership, probably a bit more physical than Kreuzer and Philips...
Shaw.....lost vs Bruest, Poppy.....
Cripps....fought on well after being decked by Howe
Graham....one of his better outings error wise but low impact..
Charlie...quiet by his standards but supply was poor...
Wright....ok when he got the ball but not enough
Jack...ok down back, probably helps his lack of pace.
Simpson...ok..not great
Murphy...got a few kicks but low impact.
Levi...poor
Harry.....kicking was putrid and looked a bit lazy...
Pickett....exciting run and does some good stuff but not enough.
Obrien....didnt see much of him.
Dow....didnt see much of him but if he was on Worpel he got a lesson...
Fisher...missed  his input a lot
Jones....missed as well
Marchbank...still rusty....
Ed...ok on Smith and battled on, needed to be on Mitchell...

Bolts ain’t going anywhere.
Showed in his first two years when injuries weren’t such an issue that he can coach.
Needs the right support staff around him and a better playing list.

Levi was pathetic. Looked disinterested and falls over most times he’s anywhere near it.
Coach was poor.
We started terribly with our disposal killing us.
We look like weak kids. We need some serious physicality

Levi was pathetic. Looked disinterested and gals over most times he’s anywhere near it.
Coach was poor.
We started terribly with our disposal killing us.
We look like weak kids. We need some serious physicality

How long have I have been saying that for, we got roughed up and fell apart under the physical pressure......
Hawks stepped off the gas a bit and allowed us back in but it was a easy win for them given we lost two players and
just didnt have the mature bodies to fight fire with fire......

Only thing is those young players we've recruited the last few drafts do look ok. Kennedy now showing we made a good decision recruiting him. With Marchbank and Pickett as well when they are properly fit again they'll be good pick ups, Weitering looks better with responsibility of a key position. SPS was better, but probably best to play as a smaller forward with only the odd role in the midfield. Polson probably took a step today. SOJ much better in defence with a role but his kicking was wobbly. Schumaker had a good one with the NB's today, reckon he can replace Shaw next week. Reckon now if we are to go with another tall forward, not that we need to, let it be De Konning for a few games rather than Levi now. he does look a player.

Now just need a coach who can get the best out of them. Current one can't. Really shouldn't be as crap as we are.

Bolts ain’t going anywhere.
Showed in his first two years when injuries weren’t such an issue that he can coach.
Needs the right support staff around him and a better playing list.

Can't go this far backwards. No amount of injuries can be excuse for a near winless season. Game plan is terrible.

Levi was pathetic. Looked disinterested and falls over most times he’s anywhere near it.
Coach was poor.
We started terribly with our disposal killing us.
We look like weak kids. We need some serious physicality

If we're going to have another tall in there may as well be De Konning for a few games rather than Levi. Levi's done a pretty good job over the years given his talent filling that gap between losing Waite and Henderson and the young ones coming though but after his contract runs out his time is probably done. He'll be 30. Good to have with the NB's for another year to help young one's along but that's it. He come as pick 44 in a rookie draft so we've done well to get out of him what we have with his limited ability. His 100th game was one of his best games for the club but since he busted his rib he's really struggled.

Only thing is those young players we've recruited the last few drafts do look ok. Kennedy now showing we made a good decision recruiting him. With Marchbank and Pickett as well when they are properly fit again they'll be good pick ups, Weitering looks better with responsibility of a key position. SPS was better, but probably best to play as a smaller forward with only the odd role in the midfield. Polson probably took a step today. SOJ much better in defence with a role but his kicking was wobbly. Schumaker had a good one with the NB's today, reckon he can replace Shaw next week. Reckon now if we are to go with another tall forward, not that we need to, let it be De Konning for a few games rather than Levi now. he does look a player.

Now just need a coach who can get the best out of them. Current one can't. Really shouldn't be as crap as we are.

Reckon Kruezer will come back for Levi but play more forward.....Lobbe has to stay in IMO...Witts had 56 hitouts and 9 tackles vs Sydney and usually does well vs Kreuzer...

re: Kennedy....still not convinced, 1st quarter was terrible, just handed the ball to Hawks players but did improve as the game went on...not a frontline mid IMO..more your Blue Collar 4th mid who needs some class around him to make up for his rough disposal....

We had 12 kids 21 and under today....and played like it.

Next.

Worked so hard really to get back into the game.
Levi dropping an easy mark 45 out changed the momentum.
Had he taken it, gone back and slotted the goal like any other decent forward, we would’ve been right back in the contest, 
Ran out of steam late on due to bring 2 down, thus the blow out in the score in the last 10 minutes.

Bolts ain’t going anywhere.
....................

I hope not. Sacking him is a band aid solution, which we have tried unsuccessfully a few times already.

The Hawks are not the same team as a few years back, but they still have a decent number of premiership players, a decent number of 100-200 gamers, a 4 time premiership coach, and of course, their secret weapon, super coach Ratts.

I could never understand why some folks thought this was a winnable game.

Levi was pathetic. Looked disinterested and falls over most times he’s anywhere near it.
Coach was poor.
We started terribly with our disposal killing us.
We look like weak kids. We need some serious physicality

We are weak kids...and lack the physicality to compete.
Polson is a classic example.. that last tackle where he was caught he was running at speed.
Would a 22 year old Polson bust right through that...That will be the test of whether some of these blokes stay on our list.

We'll get some improvement from these striplings as they bulk up...whether it's enough will reflect on Silvagni's list management.
Just looking at some of them though you wonder whether they have the genetic make-up to come up much bigger.

Polson was better today...Improvement is all you can ask.
Keep improving and you keep your place.
Liked Lobbe's game and Kennedy will get better and be useful with consistent game time.
Silvagni has his limitations but you can't fault his effort.
Weitering was also better today, apart from his woeful kick in and one time he was run down, but he looked a lot more confident..
Marchbank had one terrible shot at goal but I'd like to see him spend a bit more time forward to get a real judgement.
Murphy appeared to get a lot of the ball but I didn't notice much of an impact from him.

Where are we at the moment?...I'm buggered if I know.
I can understand what's trying to be achieved..but I think we're coming up short in a few areas.
Bolton gets another 12 months but if we're in a similar position in July 2019 he'll probably be looking for another job.
Silvagni should also be on notice as the team will be very much his list by the end of next year.

Where are we at the moment?...I'm buggered if I know.

We are one of the worst teams in history.

Need to bring in some experience but not at the expense of our top draft picks.

I would even bring in 30 year old players to help in the short term as we're not going to lure anyone in their prime.

We are one of the worst teams in history.

Need to bring in some experience but not at the expense of our top draft picks.

I would even bring in 30 year old players to help in the short term as we're not going to lure anyone in their prime.

Statistically we could end up the worst team in our history....the thing is, there is a large percentage of our team that has their best football ahead of them.
I agree we need some mature bodies and that should be a priority this trade draft period....and I'm not sure we can achieve that without sacrificing some picks.

I do think this weekend's results make it more likely we will ask for and receive a Priority Pick...and I don't think we'll get as much resistance from other clubs as I thought we'd get a month or two back.

We are weak kids...and lack the physicality to compete.
Polson is a classic example.. that last tackle where he was caught he was running at speed.
Would a 22 year old Polson bust right through that...That will be the test of whether some of these blokes stay on our list.

We'll get some improvement from these striplings as they bulk up...whether it's enough will reflect on Silvagni's list management.
Just looking at some of them though you wonder whether they have the genetic make-up to come up much bigger.

Polson was better today...Improvement is all you can ask.
Keep improving and you keep your place.
Liked Lobbe's game and Kennedy will get better and be useful with consistent game time.
Silvagni has his limitations but you can't fault his effort.
Weitering was also better today, apart from his woeful kick in and one time he was run down, but he looked a lot more confident..
Marchbank had one terrible shot at goal but I'd like to see him spend a bit more time forward to get a real judgement.
Murphy appeared to get a lot of the ball but I didn't notice much of an impact from him.

Where are we at the moment?...I'm buggered if I know.
I can understand what's trying to be achieved..but I think we're coming up short in a few areas.
Bolton gets another 12 months but if we're in a similar position in July 2019 he'll probably be looking for another job.
Silvagni should also be on notice as the team will be very much his list by the end of next year.

re: Polson...got taken high IMO...Mitchell being a name player got the 50/50 his way...
Where are we?...we need a reset on the rebuild.....we have injuries but we dont have enough bigger bodies anyway...eg Matt Shaw
was recruited to provide a bigger body and mature age backup but he looks slender vs the Hawks bigger bodies.
10 players cut and some bigger mature bodies brought in..I looked at the Pies game and at Mihocek who kicked 4 goals and he is that utility type tall we need, big strong body honed in the VFL and at 25 ready to play AFL footy and who can take a hit and give one....
Its not a crime anymore to take players from the VFL/WAFL/SANFL and we need some of these freebies that other teams have the knack of picking up and who can fill some holes on the list..

We are one of the worst teams in history.

Need to bring in some experience but not at the expense of our top draft picks.

I would even bring in 30 year old players to help in the short term as we're not going to lure anyone in their prime.

I agree. We need to find some kind of sweet spot between numpties like O'Shea and Mullet and silk like Shiel etc.

O’Brien improvement; Polson too (from a low base)  Kennedy much better, Weitering more confident. Lobbe competed well. Pay Cripps $1m x 5 years and front end it. Without him, don’t every worry about what we are doing about draft picks and priority pick.

O’Brien improvement; Polson too (from a low base)  Kennedy much better, Weitering more confident. Lobbe competed well. Pay Cripps $1m x 5 years and front end it. Without him, don’t every worry about what we are doing about draft picks and priority pick.

Cripps will sign IMO..I'm more worried he will be too banged up to play as he is now targeted every week.....we need some tougher units to help sort
out his aggressors....Howe should have been dealt with today....

SPS was very good today, head down and arse up in the first half when we were being smashed.
Kennedy pretty good, Cripps as well, Silvagni battled hard and McKay worked hard both ways and showed the he will definitely make the grade.
We won't do anything for the rest of this year, too many injuries that we just can't cover, but I'm happy to see what Bolton can do with a decent crack at it.

Kelli Underwood on Fox described Cripps as 23 but looks 33 due to pressure he is under with us. Yeh ok Kellie and you look 25. Look in the mirror love. Back to radio for you. Sundays are bad enough without this crap.

Bolts ain’t going anywhere.
Showed in his first two years when injuries weren’t such an issue that he can coach.
Needs the right support staff around him and a better playing list.

I was firmly in the BB camp until recently. If you can't galvanize a group with their backs to the wall... well, they aren't hearing you.

We can't keep going backwards and seeming unprepared, insipid, with a confusing game plan. These kids need an experienced bloke with his own team of assistants to give the present list something to look forward to next year... not more of the same, nuh.

Kelli Underwood on Fox described Cripps as 23 but looks 33 due to pressure he is under with us. Yeh ok Kellie and you look 25. Look in the mirror love. Back to radio for you. Sundays are bad enough without this crap.

Listened to Whateley on SEN while at the ground. He is a flog and totally anti Carlton and has us in the crosshairs.

We've broken through the 60% barrier... 59.6%  :(

The issue with today wasn't a lack of effort.
We were just outclassed.
The fact that we were able to kick a few goals in a row indicates we were still trying....their effort just dropped off.
Clarkson wouldn't have been happy...and any day that Clarkson isn't happy can't be all bad. ;)

Listened to Whateley on SEN while at the ground. He is a flog and totally anti Carlton and has us in the crosshairs.

...well, we sure are giving our critics plenty of ammunition...

Reckon Kruezer will come back for Levi but play more forward.....Lobbe has to stay in IMO...Witts had 56 hitouts and 9 tackles vs Sydney and usually does well vs Kreuzer...

re: Kennedy....still not convinced, 1st quarter was terrible, just handed the ball to Hawks players but did improve as the game went on...not a frontline mid IMO..more your Blue Collar 4th mid who needs some class around him to make up for his rough disposal....

No two ruckmen. It's does Harry alot of good running around the ground right now chasing marks and kicks. That's alot more important. Mightn't win a tap but stiff $hit as long as he is getting his hands on the ball it will only help his confidence. Some rucking made Levi a better player over the years, he would've been done long ago without that as he game would've fallen right away, and will make Harry alot more so than Levi as he is infinitely more talented.

I was firmly in the BB camp until recently. If you can't galvanize a group with their backs to the wall... well, they aren't hearing you.

We can't keep going backwards and seeming unprepared, insipid, with a confusing game plan. These kids need an experienced bloke with his own team of assistants to give the present list something to look forward to next year... not more of the same, nuh.

I don't think they can get rid of Bolton unless they all hand in their tickets.
They're joined at the hip...although when you look at it.... there aren't many architects of the rebuild left.
Whose idea was it anyway ::)

re: Polson...got taken high IMO...Mitchell being a name player got the 50/50 his way...
Where are we?...we need a reset on the rebuild.....we have injuries but we dont have enough bigger bodies anyway...eg Matt Shaw
was recruited to provide a bigger body and mature age backup but he looks slender vs the Hawks bigger bodies.
10 players cut and some bigger mature bodies brought in..I looked at the Pies game and at Mihocek who kicked 4 goals and he is that utility type tall we need, big strong body honed in the VFL and at 25 ready to play AFL footy and who can take a hit and give one....
Its not a crime anymore to take players from the VFL/WAFL/SANFL and we need some of these freebies that other teams have the knack of picking up and who can fill some holes on the list..

We need to recruit bigger bodies, but classy ones, not  GWS steak knives and delisted free agents. We have alot of good, young kids. It's not been one of our strengths recruiting from state leagues so it's something we need to get right.

Listened to Whateley on SEN while at the ground. He is a flog and totally anti Carlton and has us in the crosshairs.

On the agenda of most media commentators is kicking the boots in to us. Whateley has much more freedom on SEN to become the shock jock he has always wanted to be. We are simply an avenue for him. The day we next beat Geelong..I don't know when but I will be calling 9429 1116 very sharply

The end of season can't come quick enough.

Indeed. Performances with so little heart are not good for my mental health.

Listened to Whateley on SEN while at the ground. He is a flog and totally anti Carlton and has us in the crosshairs.

He was about 20 years old when we flogged his beloved Geelong in 95.

On the agenda of most media commentators is kicking the boots in to us. Whateley has much more freedom on SEN to become the shock jock he has always wanted to be. We are simply an avenue for him. The day we next beat Geelong..I don't know when but I will be calling 9429 1116 very sharply

We're everybody's easy target atm and it's become a feeding frenzy. Just shows what a pack of lazy ass-wipes most of 'em in the media are. Little attempt at serious unbiased analysis just 3rd rate finger pointing - probably that's all they are capable of. Still, we have to put up with it - for now!

I still believe in what they’re doing and losing Gibbs and Doch and all the ongoing injuries just hurt more and more.

But when we get a run on, we look good! We are bottom of the ladder, the youngsters are hurting, the old ones are fried - we will go again next year and see. If this time next year it’s same old then there has to be changes made. But until then...

On the commentators, it’s pretty lazy commentating to just continue putting the boot in.  Ffs D King said the punch to Cripps’ jaw was unintentional.  Kellie corrected him and said that was clearly intentional. They lose credibility when they speak sh*t

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We've paid out on all mythical bets on Fitzroy 1996 beating the 2018 Carlton side in an imagination match.

The issue with today wasn't a lack of effort.
We were just outclassed.
The fact that we were able to kick a few goals in a row indicates we were still trying....their effort just dropped off.
Clarkson wouldn't have been happy...and any day that Clarkson isn't happy can't be all bad. ;)

Well I wouldn't have described us as putting in a lot of effort. I saw plenty of players standing in space, not chasing and watching Hawthorn players run off them harder into the forward 50.
Today was a combination of poor attitude, bad tactics (our zone defence is just deplorable and must be abandoned), lazy running and terrible skills.
When one or two players have bad attitude, are a bit lazy and can't kick you can point the finger at the individual. When an entire team plays that way you have to look at the coaching group and question if you've got the right brains sending messages to the feet.

I still believe in what they’re doing and losing Gibbs and Doch and all the ongoing injuries just hurt more and more.

But when we get a run on, we look good! We are bottom of the ladder, the youngsters are hurting, the old ones are fried - we will go again next year and see. If this time next year it’s same old then there has to be changes made. But until then...

On the commentators, it’s pretty lazy commentating to just continue putting the boot in.  Ffs D King said the punch to Cripps’ jaw was unintentional.  Kellie corrected him and said that was clearly intentional. They lose credibility when they speak sh*t

To add to those injuries Bolton thinks Fisher may have fractured his leg:
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-07-22/bolton-nervous-about-young-blues-injury

Clean up the disposal,  ditch that screwing useless zone defence and swapout the dead wood for blokes that can actually play we will be 1000 percent better. Giving a rats counts for a lot too.

I don't give a flying rats who you are but trying costs nothing.   Levi Casboult was piss weak today and guilty of not trying,  and that's not only inexcusable but that attitude spreads through the team faster than head lice through a kindergarten.  I'd tell this continual non-performer to clean out his locker tommorrow morning,  down right disgraceful from him today.

To add to those injuries Bolton thinks Fisher may have fractured his leg:
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-07-22/bolton-nervous-about-young-blues-injury

Howell is going to have a bad day with the MRO. Deliberate punch on Cripps, trip on Fisher fracturing his ankle. He won be seeing any action before the finals.

Howell is going to have a bad day with the MRO. Deliberate punch on Cripps, trip on Fisher fracturing his ankle. He won be seeing any action before the finals.

Jim, That would be Howe..... ;)..remember Scott Howell playing for us though....

The trip should be a month if it breaks a leg,   the punch should be classed as a strike,  intentional,  head contact and medium impact... Two weeks.

But don't forget the against Carlton discount,  if he's unlucky hell get a fine for the trip and a week for the second.

A real side would have hospitalised the prick.

Jim, That would be Howe..... ;)..remember Scott Howell playing for us though....

Known as "The Tissue".  :)

I was firmly in the BB camp until recently. If you can't galvanize a group with their backs to the wall... well, they aren't hearing you.

We can't keep going backwards and seeming unprepared, insipid, with a confusing game plan. These kids need an experienced bloke with his own team of assistants to give the present list something to look forward to next year... not more of the same, nuh.

x2....We are non competitive......thats the bottom line, not sure how long you can keep going like this before change has to happen..
Tactically we are horrible...zone defense isnt working and while the multi premiership coach found it fit to tag Cripps with Howe we just allowed Mitchell to wander around on his own all day and gave
him three brownlow votes...this is after OMeara was pulled out and it left Worpel and ORourke as the Hawks main mids behind Mitchell. How does that make sense? they are down to one main mid and we let him run around on his own. Its not Auskick.....

Known as "The Tissue".  :)

I got it, but it took me a while..... ;)

I simply cannot understand how two obvious trips were simply ignored by the umpires. For that matter, I haven't heard of a report for the Cripps hit yet. Can't be much more obvious than it was.

3rd 10+ goal belting in a row....Bolts has to be feeling the pressure surely?

What else could he do in your opinion? I am curious to hear what others think, however, I look at this side with who is available, and, I wonder what else we really could do in this situation. Consider form, injuries, and, availability, what other options do we have?

x2....We are non competitive......thats the bottom line, not sure how long you can keep going like this before change has to happen..
Tactically we are horrible...zone defense isnt working and while the multi premiership coach found it fit to tag Cripps with Howe we just allowed Mitchell to wander around on his own all day and gave
him three brownlow votes...this is after OMeara was pulled out and it left Worpel and ORourke as the Hawks main mids behind Mitchell. How does that make sense? they are down to one main mid and we let him run around on his own. Its not Auskick.....

Our zone is a joke. The players guard space and give the opposition enough room to pass it around and just walk through it with zero pressure. There are too many moments where we have more numbers in the area but the opposition stroll way with ball unchecked.
if Bolton won't adjust this glaring hole in our game plan he has to go. I can live with our young players getting beaten in a contest, but capitulating without a fight like this is disgusting and disrespectful to every person who supports Carlton.

I simply cannot understand how two obvious trips were simply ignored by the umpires. For that matter, I haven't heard of a report for the Cripps hit yet. Can't be much more obvious than it was.

I can't remember - did Cripps even get free kick from it?

I can't remember - did Cripps even get free kick from it?

No.

The Hawks are not the same team as a few years back, but they still have a decent number of premiership players, a decent number of 100-200 gamers, a 4 time premiership coach, and of course, their secret weapon, super coach Ratts.

I could never understand why some folks thought this was a winnable game.

I posted earlier in another thread:
Bruest to kick five. Carlton to kick seven.

I think it was Breust who took a set shot from about 35 metres dead in front, it sailed through easily but there wasn't a single Carlton player standing on the goal line.
That's not down to Bolton.

No.

What a surprise. All those umpires must have been looking elsewhere.
Likewise fisher being tripped. I don't think it was intentional but clearly a trip.
But if Polson gets tackled after 2 steps the umpires jump on it.
We were clearly bad today and deserved to lose, but the umpiring was just as putrid. And the commentary team on fox. Eddie spent 5 minutes in the last term promoting the pies v tigers match next and saying it should be moved to Saturday night ffs.

I think it was Breust who took a set shot from about 35 metres dead in front, it sailed through easily but there wasn't a single Carlton player standing on the goal line.
That's not down to Bolton.

As is. What is happening when that type of stuff happens. A properly drilled and motivated side doesn't let that happen.

As is. What is happening when that type of stuff happens. A properly drilled and motivated side doesn't let that happen.

Exactly. Sorry B4L but it is up to BB to create a disciplined team. 3 years, poor discipline. It's now glaringly obvious. The huge problem is the egos of the people who put BB in place, primarily... the President, Judd and the new Board Member... gulp. They'll be too proud to admit that BB might have been the right man 3 years ago, but he aint now.

As is. What is happening when that type of stuff happens. A properly drilled and motivated side doesn't let that happen.

Laj, an under 14 side doesn't let that happen.
We are dispirited, disorganised and defeated, the players are trying but it's all become too much for them and they've lost concentration.
Three set shots out on the full, and none of them by Levi, it's mind boggling.
The first was Kennedy with the first shot at goal for the game, it set the standard.
Bolton can't kick it for them and blaming him for schoolboy errors by grown men is a cop out, at some point the players need to accept responsibility for their own performance.

Exactly. Sorry B4L but it is up to BB to create a disciplined team. 3 years, poor discipline. It's now glaringly obvious. The huge problem is the egos of the people who put BB in place, primarily... the President, Judd and the new Board Member... gulp. They'll be too proud to admit that BB might have been the right man 3 years ago, but he aint now.

Sorry mate but I don't buy it.
It was Brittain's fault, then Pagan's, then Ratten's, then Malthouse, and now Bolton?
Nah.

Laj, an under 14 side doesn't let that happen.
We are dispirited, disorganised and defeated, the players are trying but it's all become too much for them and they've lost concentration.
Three set shots out on the full, and none of them by Levi, it's mind boggling.
The first was Kennedy with the first shot at goal for the game, it set the standard.
Bolton can't kick it for them and blaming him for schoolboy errors by grown men is a cop out, at some point the players need to accept responsibility for their own performance.

Maybe if they didnt have to try and play Boltons zone defense gameplan of guarding grass they might concentrate on the basics better.

Maybe if they didnt have to try and play Boltons zone defense gameplan of guarding grass they might concentrate on the basics better.

The elementary skill errors run deeper than Bolton or a zone defence, they're an inherent flaw in the games of too many of our players.
We basically don't give ourselves a chance, and it's been a problem at the CFC since long before Bolton came on the scene.
Cripps is probably now our best player and his foot skills are iffy, our 300 gamer's are no better, Ed Curnow's are sub par and the less said about Levi the better.
Weitering, Murphy and SPS are reliable, so is Byrne when he's fit but then you're pushing it.
We simply lack the requisite skill.

x2....We are non competitive......thats the bottom line, not sure how long you can keep going like this before change has to happen..
Tactically we are horrible...zone defense isnt working and while the multi premiership coach found it fit to tag Cripps with Howe we just allowed Mitchell to wander around on his own all day and gave
him three brownlow votes...this is after OMeara was pulled out and it left Worpel and ORourke as the Hawks main mids behind Mitchell. How does that make sense? they are down to one main mid and we let him run around on his own. Its not Auskick.....

Yes. I laugh at people sayin “..but that’s not down to the coach..”. If you have Netflix, hit it up Season 3 of Last Chance U. It just came out. The first two seasons were amazing television. If you don’t know what this show is, it follows a small US southern town’s grid iron team performing miracles with a Tough as Oak, foul mouthed coach who takes utter misfits into Win after Win after Win. These kids are talented, but due to crap upbringings have landed at this college in a “last chance” attempt to get picked up by the big league.

That’s what we need. Go back to being a cheap as defence like last year. Give them nothing and make them earn every bloody meter. That DOES come down to the coach. He had all pre season and the last 17 rounds to come up with something. We knew Doc and Gibbs were out for the year. Its called planning. No wonder the players look listless. It’s pitiful and I don’t appreciate my membership money being spent on this supposed elite sporting environment.

Go to the WAFL/SANFL/VFL with our second and third round picks and draft hard nosed journeymen who will be oozing Adrenaline to get onto the park for their “last chance”. They won’t stop running, tackling and chasing. That’ll inject some much needed oomph into this insipid Culture. It’s so bloody obvious that we need hard nosed 22-30 year old players and then show the rest of the comp what we stand for. At the moment we stand for walk overs. And that has been perpetuated, no ENDORSED from the President down to Judd and the Coach. No wonder the Players look listless. The Club is telling them subconsciously that next year is when we want to be judged. Don’t worry about his year. That screams losing Culture.

Laj, an under 14 side doesn't let that happen.
We are dispirited, disorganised and defeated, the players are trying but it's all become too much for them and they've lost concentration.
Three set shots out on the full, and none of them by Levi, it's mind boggling.
The first was Kennedy with the first shot at goal for the game, it set the standard.
Bolton can't kick it for them and blaming him for schoolboy errors by grown men is a cop out, at some point the players need to accept responsibility for their own performance.

This

The elementary skill errors run deeper than Bolton or a zone defence, they're an inherent flaw in the games of too many of our players.
We basically don't give ourselves a chance, and it's been a problem at the CFC since long before Bolton came on the scene.
Cripps is probably now our best player and his foot skills are iffy, our 300 gamer's are no better, Ed Curnow's are sub par and the less said about Levi the better.
Weitering, Murphy and SPS are reliable, so is Byrne when he's fit but then you're pushing it.
We simply lack the requisite skill.

And this.

Sorry mate but I don't buy it.
It was Brittain's fault, then Pagan's, then Ratten's, then Malthouse, and now Bolton?
Nah.

And this as well.

Size.   Competitiveness.  Nastiness.    Effort.   Skill.  Depth.

Some basic attributes we lack.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-07-22/been-there-suffered-that-says-clarkson

I posted earlier in another thread:
Bruest to kick five. Carlton to kick seven.

Yes, in the pre game. You're hired.

What's going to happen in the next few weeks, and when will we be playing finals ?

Yes. I laugh at people sayin “..but that’s not down to the coach..”. If you have Netflix, hit it up Season 3 of Last Chance U. It just came out. The first two seasons were amazing television. If you don’t know what this show is, it follows a small US southern town’s grid iron team performing miracles with a Tough as Oak, foul mouthed coach who takes utter misfits into Win after Win after Win. These kids are talented, but due to crap upbringings have landed at this college in a “last chance” attempt to get picked up by the big league.

That’s what we need. Go back to being a cheap as defence like last year. Give them nothing and make them earn every bloody meter. That DOES come down to the coach. He had all pre season and the last 17 rounds to come up with something. We knew Doc and Gibbs were out for the year. Its called planning. No wonder the players look listless. It’s pitiful and I don’t appreciate my membership money being spent on this supposed elite sporting environment.

Go to the WAFL/SANFL/VFL with our second and third round picks and draft hard nosed journeymen who will be oozing Adrenaline to get onto the park for their “last chance”. They won’t stop running, tackling and chasing. That’ll inject some much needed oomph into this insipid Culture. It’s so bloody obvious that we need hard nosed 22-30 year old players and then show the rest of the comp what we stand for. At the moment we stand for walk overs. And that has been perpetuated, no ENDORSED from the President down to Judd and the Coach. No wonder the Players look listless. The Club is telling them subconsciously that next year is when we want to be judged. Don’t worry about his year. That screams losing Culture.

Woody...Agree...I'd look at the VFL/WAFL/SANFL and get some men not boys who want a AFL career and who can take a hit and give one back and wont flinch or give ground.
At the moment we are a walkover especially when the rough stuff starts, of course they have to be able to play but we need a sprinkle of these harder units through the team to help the kids..
Having a rebuild and injuries doesnt entitle coach or players to run up the white flag and hide behind green shoots, synergies and defined by pressure cliches......

Yes, in the pre game. You're hired.

What's going to happen in the next few weeks, and when will we be playing finals ?

More importly, what about the Lotto numbers?...lol.

More importly, what about the Lotto numbers?...lol.

Yes, Lotto numbers would be very handy.

I got it, but it took me a while..... ;)

Yep, goes back a way that one.

Laj, an under 14 side doesn't let that happen.
We are dispirited, disorganised and defeated, the players are trying but it's all become too much for them and they've lost concentration.
Three set shots out on the full, and none of them by Levi, it's mind boggling.
The first was Kennedy with the first shot at goal for the game, it set the standard.
Bolton can't kick it for them and blaming him for schoolboy errors by grown men is a cop out, at some point the players need to accept responsibility for their own performance.

Please! I hate the "Bolton can't do it for them" saying. It's his job to make sure they do them. That's one reason why they train. If they can't even do the basics right then why is he in a job. All that above is his job. Buck stops with him.

Yep, goes back a way that one.

I used to live up the road from Bowater Scott in Box Hill......

I used to live up the road from Bowater Scott in Box Hill......

EB, you may find this amusing:

Scotties is a facial tissue brand originally owned by the Scott Paper Company. Created in 1955, it is noted for its emphasis on softness......................Wikipeadia

Maybe we should be looking for a sponsorship deal??  :o

Sorry mate but I don't buy it.
It was Brittain's fault, then Pagan's, then Ratten's, then Malthouse, and now Bolton?
Nah.

We were right to sack Brittain, Pagan and Malthouse. In hindsight, perhaps not Ratten. Are you saying we should have kept Pagan and Malthouse? We actually paid a heavy price to hanging on to them for too long!

Please! I hate the "Bolton can't do it for them" saying. It's his job to make sure they do them. That's one reason why they train. If they can't even do the basics right then why is he in a job. All that above is his job. Buck stops with him.

So a good horse trainer can take a hack running around on the picnic circuit and turn it into a Cup winner?
The bald facts are that of all the players we drafted between 2007 and 2014 only Kreuzer, Rowe, Graham and Cripps are still at the club, and two of those are on borrowed time.
That's effectively 8 years of the draft up in smoke, but somehow it's Bolton's fault that we've bottomed out in 2018.
I don't buy it.

Sorry mate but I don't buy it.
It was Brittain's fault, then Pagan's, then Ratten's, then Malthouse, and now Bolton?
Nah.

Wasn't Ratten's faullt. They sacked him after an injury ridden 11 wins from 21 games in 2012.

We have selected a novice coach who never played...no good, then we select a dinosaur...no good, he was past it, then we selected a novice coached who had played, did a pretty good job, we sack him for another dinosaur that's past it...no good, so we select another novice coach who has played AFL,, back to the bottom of the ladder.

See the pattern. We are poor at selecting the right coaches. We got one selection right, the young coach who had played, did a good job, the rest no good for various reasons. All those others sent us to the bottom. You just have to keep changing them until you get the right one. You'll get it right eventually, even Richmond eventually got one right.

Clarko's rebuild resulted in finals in 3 years, premiers year 4
Hardwick's rebuild 10 wins 3rd year, finals 4th year
Roos rebuild, starting from 2 wins got to 10 wins by year 3
Bolton's rebuild, bottom year 3, almost winless, albeit injuries but totally terrible.

We have alot of good youngsters out there, some very good, we have more established one's like Kennedy, Marchbank, Murphy, Simmo, Ed Curnow, Cripps. Kreuzer most weeks. Mightn't go through to 22 but much better than the near winless season we are producing, with the poor game plan that confuses players, the terrible skills, the lack of effort etc.. That coaching! We go out of our way to draft kids with kicking skills. What happens to them when they come to Carlton?

We were right to sack Brittain, Pagan and Malthouse. In hindsight, perhaps not Ratten. Are you saying we should have kept Pagan and Malthouse? We actually paid a heavy price to hanging on to them for too long!

I'm saying that we've been blaming coaches for much deeper seated problems for far too long and that we're in danger of repeating the same mistake.

I'm saying that we've been blaming coaches for much deeper seated problems for far too long and that we're in danger of repeating the same mistake.

You'd have to think that the problems run a lot deeper than just the coach. If we can't identify the root cause(s) of our predicament we will never get out of it!

So a good horse trainer can take a hack running around on the picnic circuit and turn it into a Cup winner?
The bald facts are that of all the players we drafted between 2007 and 2014 only Kreuzer, Rowe, Graham and Cripps are still at the club, and two of those are on borrowed time.
That's effectively 8 years of the draft up in smoke, but somehow it's Bolton's fault that we've bottomed out in 2018.
I don't buy it.

A near winless season is the coach's fault.

I coach athlete's from elite to grass roots. Thee role of good coaching is to get the best out of every athlete whether they win an Olympic medal to simply give their personal best times a good smacking. Hence the job of a coach, horse trainer is to get players to play to their potential. We are far from that. Don't argue that one with me. We are alot better than what we are showing. We have a number of youngsters with alot of ability with enough decent established players to be better than this.

Bet you said the same thing in 2007 as well. We played finals 2 years later. We suddenly found blokes were actually better than what we thought even if alot of them weren't that talented. Maybe because we had the only coach that was half decent since 2000.

The issue with today wasn't a lack of effort.
We were just outclassed.
The fact that we were able to kick a few goals in a row indicates we were still trying....their effort just dropped off.
Clarkson wouldn't have been happy...and any day that Clarkson isn't happy can't be all bad. ;)

You're right Lods re: outclassed. One passage of play summed it up for me, it was a contest between Breust and Shaw deep in their fwd 50. Triple premiership player versus GC reject, goal to Breust. The gulf in experience was blatantly apparent.

I'm saying that we've been blaming coaches for much deeper seated problems for far too long and that we're in danger of repeating the same mistake.

I don't think it's either / or. It's both. But hard to tell which is failing more... poor development/skills, or coaching. One thing is for certain and that is we are lacking discipline and game plan understanding.

That's 3 hidings in a row and we see no sign of hurt from the senior coach. That concerns me. It's as if everyone has accepted we're sh1te and everything is pinned on next year being better with new players and less injuries.

I've mentioned it before but I would love an independent assessment/audit of the club. I am confident we're heading in the right direction, but not so confident in terms of the people in charge/driving the new direction.

You'd have to think that the problems run a lot deeper than just the coach. If we can't identify the root cause(s) of our predicament we will never get out of it!

I think that the root cause is our abysmal recruiting over an extended period which has left us bereft of good quality senior players in the 25 to 30 age group.
The problem is that it can't be fixed in one, two or three years, it's a long process to build a list virtually from scratch.

EB, you may find this amusing:

Scotties is a facial tissue brand originally owned by the Scott Paper Company. Created in 1955, it is noted for its emphasis on softness......................Wikipeadia

Maybe we should be looking for a sponsorship deal??  :o

Cookie,..We should use it for the banner...my money's on the Scotties, our blokes would get bruised going through the banner.... :P ....er well some might make it through :-X

@ Jim

How is it Jim that we just seem incapable of getting hold of and sustaining the right coach?? What is stopping us from doing that?

You'd have to think that the problems run a lot deeper than just the coach. If we can't identify the root cause(s) of our predicament we will never get out of it!

Last time we had a decent coach, the only one since 2000, we went from a similar basket case to finals in 2 years. You'll be surprised what coaching does. The coach and the recruiter are everything. Look what happen at Port when they swapped from Primus to Hinkley. Horrible to finals in one year.

Last time we had a decent coach, the only one since 2000, we went from a similar basket case to finals in 2 years. You'll be surprised what coaching does. The coach and the recruiter are everything. Look what happen at Port when they swapped from Primus to Hinkley. Horrible to finals in one year.

Ok Jim, before you sneak off to Europe who do we replace Bolton with and do we continue with the rebuild as is or do we need to reset the rebuild?...

@ Jim

How is it Jim that we just seem incapable of getting hold of and sustaining the right coach?? What is stopping us from doing that?

Read earlier post.

Since 2000 we have had 2 coaches that have never played the game and two dinosaurs way past it. no coincidence the one coach, who had played and was younger had by far the most success. Basket case to finals in 2 years then sacked him. This issue is our inability to pick the right coach at the right time is our issue, similar to having Wayne Hughes as our recruiter. We pick the wrong ones.

Read earlier post.

Since 2000 we have had 2 coaches that have never played the game and two dinosaurs way past it. no coincidence the one coach, who had played and was younger had by far the most success. Basket case to finals in 2 years then sacked him. This issue is our inability to pick the right coach at the right time is our issue, similar to having Wayne Hughes as our recruiter. We pick the wrong ones.

So the problem does run deeper than the coach. The problem seems to be our inability to select the right coach - so how do we fix that??

Ok Jim, before you sneak off to Europe who do we replace Bolton with and do we continue with the rebuild as is or do we need to reset the rebuild?...

Like to look at Blake Caracella with Teague as his main assistant and snatch him from Richmond. We continue with what we're doing as we have drafted alot of good young players, some very good. Just need a few classy bigger bodies to add to them and a coach to get the best out of what we recruit. Like to see SOS with a good coach. Pity we didn't have him back in Ratten's days.

Last time we had a decent coach, the only one since 2000, we went from a similar basket case to finals in 2 years. You'll be surprised what coaching does. The coach and the recruiter are everything. Look what happen at Port when they swapped from Primus to Hinkley. Horrible to finals in one year.

But while we were going from basket case to finals under your supposedly excellent coach our list was rotting to its core.
How many players who played under Ratten played in today's team?
How many 10 or even 5 year players did we draft or trade in during his years?
There more to long term success than winning the occasional finals match.

So the problem does run deeper than the coach. The problem seems to be our inability to select the right coach - so how do we fix that??

I'm not privy to they way they select coaches but something smarter in who we select. Not dinosaurs messiahs and not coaches who haven't played to start with. Not fair on them admittedly as some might have ability but they just don't seem to command the respect. So don't go there. Those are simple mistakes for starters.

Cripps will sign IMO..I'm more worried he will be too banged up to play as he is now targeted every week.....we need some tougher units to help sort
out his aggressors....Howe should have been dealt with today....

BB made an interesting comment about Crippa when asked if he needs to be managed from being banged up. He said something like, even with help, do you you think Crippa wont go to a contest hard? Of course he will.

But while we were going from basket case to finals under your supposedly excellent coach our list was rotting to its core.
How many players who played under Ratten played in today's team?
How many 10 or even 5 year players did we draft or trade in during his years?
There more to long term success than winning the occasional finals match.

Are you saying that’s Rattens fault?

Kelli Underwood on Fox described Cripps as 23 but looks 33 due to pressure he is under with us. Yeh ok Kellie and you look 25. Look in the mirror love. Back to radio for you. Sundays are bad enough without this crap.

Utter rubbish.

BB made an interesting comment about Crippa when asked if he needs to be managed from being banged up. He said something like, even with help, do you you think Crippa wont go to a contest hard? Of course he will.

I'd just like him to have some decent help rather than little fellas like Fisher trying to remonstrate with Howe....this is where I miss Robbo......

I'm not privy to they way they select coaches but something smarter in who we select. Not dinosaurs messiahs and not coaches who haven't played to start with. Not fair on them admittedly as some might have ability but they just don't seem to command the respect. So don't go there. Those are simple mistakes for starters.

So we need as a club to become a lot more savvy about who we need as a coach and in how we attract and retain them at our club? BB was selected as the result of a much vaunted selection process aligned to the future rebuild plans of the club. Appointing BB was the outcome of all of that. If he is not the right coach does his selection cast doubt over the whole plan? Do we need more fundamental change in the decision making processes and the people involved at the club?? If we use the same people and processes that appointed BB how could we expect to achieve a better result next time?

Like to look at Blake Caracella with Teague as his main assistant and snatch him from Richmond. We continue with what we're doing as we have drafted alot of good young players, some very good. Just need a few classy bigger bodies to add to them and a coach to get the best out of what we recruit. Like to see SOS with a good coach. Pity we didn't have him back in Ratten's days.

Fair enough Jim.....you enjoy that holiday mate......I got your back while you are away... ;)

Are you saying that’s Rattens fault?

I'm not saying that it was all down to him, but our list went backwards during his time at Carlton make no mistake.
Bolton can only work with what he's got, at this moment in time he'd probably kill for Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuzer, Scotland, Waite, Fevola, Betts, Simpson, Stevens and Judd.

I think that the root cause is our abysmal recruiting over an extended period which has left us bereft of good quality senior players in the 25 to 30 age group.
The problem is that it can't be fixed in one, two or three years, it's a long process to build a list virtually from scratch.

This is it in a nutshell except I SOS ain’t the answer either

Jake got SOS to the club
Their mates
The club once again doesn’t do a thorough enough job
In the first place
Pickett he will come on doesn’t get enough of it efforts are often
As weak as piss
March bank can’t kick
Kennedy too slow crap kick
He brought I think 9 blokes from GWS
Our list is still clogged with below average players
If you can’t run and can’t kick your a liability in AFL

I do believe Bolton needs an experienced offsider to help him

It’s very disappointing
Injuries have played a part but I believe it’s a simple case
That many of our players are simply not good enough
Kudos to Weiters did ok
Cripps as usual gave his all
Graham ok
Murphy lots of it but as usual plenty of cheapies

To sack the coach would be a step backwards
Look at his support staff
Get an experienced tactician

Do everything to get a good head of recruiting
SOS ain’t the answer

I'm not saying that it was all down to him, but our list went backwards during his time at Carlton make no mistake.
Bolton can only work with what he's got, at this moment in time he'd probably kill for Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuzer, Scotland, Waite, Fevola, Betts, Simpson, Stevens and Judd.

And what he's got is better than a near winless season. If you don't know that....

You thought all the failed coaches have been ok and the internet did well, Ratten, you think wasn't good. We supposed to take that seriously? Like really....

So far, while young, SOS hasn't had any of his u18 draftees bust. We have a good list of youngsters. We have enough decent, established players going around with them to be better than one win. You know it, we all know it.

This is it in a nutshell except I SOS ain’t the answer either

Jake got SOS to the club
Their mates
The club once again doesn’t do a thorough enough job
In the first place
Pickett he will come on doesn’t get enough of it efforts are often
As weak as piss
March bank can’t kick
Kennedy too slow crap kick
He brought I think 9 blokes from GWS
Our list is still clogged with below average players
If you can’t run and can’t kick your a liability in AFL

I do believe Bolton needs an experienced offsider to help him

It’s very disappointing
Injuries have played a part but I believe it’s a simple case
That many of our players are simply not good enough
Kudos to Weiters did ok
Cripps as usual gave his all
Graham ok
Murphy lots of it but as usual plenty of cheapies

To sack the coach would be a step backwards
Look at his support staff
Get an experienced tactician

Do everything to get a good head of recruiting
SOS ain’t the answer

What crap! Laughable.

Not one of SOS's u18 draftees has been a bust. That's a good group of young players. On the other hand we are near winless and you want to keep the coach and say SOS isn't the answer? Lol!

No good getting someone to help Bolts if he can't do the job. Only have to watch what is happening on field. Best to get someone else. We are terrible at selecting coaches. Young ones who never played AFL or dinosaurs. We got one right since 2000.and sacked him on 2012.

Do everything to get a good head of recruiting
SOS ain’t the answer

SOS isn't the head of recruiting.

SOS isn't the head of recruiting.

So how say does he have
Clearly it’s on his watch

We have enough decent, established players going around with them to be better than one win. You know it, we all know it.

What decent, established players did we have going around at Docklands today?
Murphy,, Simpson, and?
Cripps maybe, Jones was off before half time.
So three?

So how say does he have
Clearly it’s on his watch

He's head of performance and strategy or some bullcrap title like that, he isn't even the list manager.
There are four or five in recruiting but I don't remember their names, it will be on the website.

He's head of performance and strategy or some bullcrap title like that, he isn't even the list manager.
There are four or five in recruiting but I don't remember their names, it will be on the website.

B4L, SOS's title is GM - List Management and Strategy. John Barker is Head of Strategy and High Performance.

B4L, SOS's title is GM - List Management and Strategy. John Barker is Head of Strategy and High Performance.

OK, I knew it was something like that.
Bottom line though is that decisions on which players we draft aren't down to SOS, at least not SOS alone.

OK, I knew it was something like that.
Bottom line though is that decisions on which players we draft aren't down to SOS, at least not SOS alone.

Mate I reckon its 100% down to SOS, he said as much on FC the other night.

SOS isn't the head of recruiting.

Think SOS has the final say...

Well Barker isn't earning his coin from what I've seen this year..... What strategy and what performances?

Goodbye John, here's your cheque.

We're just guessing now.
Maybe it's all down to him but it probably isn't is the way I'm leaning, just like Bolton doesn't run the team like a one man band.
Buckle down and hang tight I reckon, the alternative is more of the chaos and misery we've suffered for almost 20 years.

What crap! Laughable.

Not one of SOS's u18 draftees has been a bust. That's a good group of young players. On the other hand we are near winless and you want to keep the coach and say SOS isn't the answer? Lol!

No good getting someone to help Bolts if he can't do the job. Only have to watch what is happening on field. Best to get someone else. We are terrible at selecting coaches. Young ones who never played AFL or dinosaurs. We got one right since 2000.and sacked him on 2012.

Jury out on SOS IMO.....He has picked some very small kids who are a long way behind some of the others, Worpel looked more advanced than some our ours already but I take your point about the coaching and that they may do better under a different coach,  different game plan with proper mature player support.
 If we need a tactician we probably need a new coach, tactics we use are mind boggling....their best player left to run around on his own and us stuck in a game plan that fails every week defending grass.....

Jury out on SOS IMO.....He has picked some very small kids who are a long way behind some of the others, Worpel looked more advanced than some our ours already but I take your point about the coaching and that they may do better under a different coach,  different game plan with proper mature player support.
 If we need a tactician we probably need a new coach, tactics we use are mind boggling....their best player left to run around on his own and us stuck in a game plan that fails every week defending grass.....

What kills us every week is that the opposition moves the ball so much better than we do.
They hit targets more regularly by hand and foot and run to space instinctively because they're confident their team mates won't cough it up.
We look timid because we don't have the skills which allow us to take risks, so we play safe, and get exposed.
McKay spotted up Marchbank with a lovely ball, Marchbank took the set shot and kicked it out of bounds.
It destroys confidence, and it's contagious.

Yes, in the pre game. You're hired.

What's going to happen in the next few weeks, and when will we be playing finals ?

Next few weeks we won't win a game. We may play finals in 2020.

I don't think they can get rid of Bolton unless they all hand in their tickets.
They're joined at the hip...although when you look at it.... there aren't many architects of the rebuild left.
Whose idea was it anyway ::)

I was never a fan of it (the rebuild) because it is a lie, but i got abused for two years on here for suggesting we are going nowhere under this coach and board etc.  Now interestingly, my critics have disappeared under the woodwork.  We are a putrid club with a putrid coach and putrid administration.  We are an embarrassment and will continue to be until change occurs. 

Next few weeks we won't win a game. We may play finals in 2020.

If they don't get rid of the coach and key admin people, we won't be playing finals until 2025

I was never a fan of it (the rebuild) because it is a lie, but i got abused for two years on here for suggesting we are going nowhere under this coach and board etc.  Now interestingly, my critics have disappeared under the woodwork. We are a putrid club with a putrid coach and putrid administration. We are an embarrassment and will continue to be until change occurs. 

I'll say it again...it's not so much your opinions that you get attacked for because your disappointment and views are shared by a few folk.
It's the way you express it.

We're not a great club at present, Bolton may prove not to be a great coach...and the admin... well we're not too sure who they are from day to day at the moment... but putrid is just over the top.

re: Kennedy....still not convinced, 1st quarter was terrible, just handed the ball to Hawks players but did improve as the game went on...not a frontline mid IMO..more your Blue Collar 4th mid who needs some class around him to make up for his rough disposal....

Me neither - can't run / can't kick

It's been a crap year for sure.  No denying it.  Most of us thought the previous 2 years were reasonable all things considered. There has been no continuity as a team this year.  Judging the 3 years as a whole and taking everything into consideration i'm not jumping ship yet.  less confident than i was at the start of the season, but not keen on bringing out the pitchforks for now. i will judge them at the end of next season so they have a chance to reply for this season. lots of teams have hiccup years it's just that ours is coming off a very low base so we look bloody awful. we have totally stunk it up this year.

Weitering played his best game for a while and apart from one or two mistakes was good today... true but still too slow
Harry needs new boots.....
Kennedy battled on after a poor start where his disposal was terrible but he did improve... probably his best game this year but still can't run or kick
Polson...not a fan but he had a better game and tried... showed up more but needs to do so in more games
Lobbe...did well and gives some leadership, probably a bit more physical than Kreuzer and Philips... was very competitive in the ruck but that's about it
Shaw.....lost vs Bruest, Poppy..... being 3rd string behind O'Shea and Mullett says it all but I think he could improve more than either of the others
Cripps....fought on well after being decked by Howe
Graham....one of his better outings error wise but low impact.. one of our more competitive players so probably back to the VFL next week
Charlie...quiet by his standards but supply was poor... yep
Wright....ok when he got the ball but nowhere near enough
Jack...ok down back, yep
Simpson...ok..not great - still one of out better players
Murphy...got a few kicks but low impact. - clearly not fit
Levi...very poor
Harry.....kicking was putrid and looked a bit lazy... always looks lazy but looked energetic compared to Levi
Pickett....exciting run and does some good stuff but nowhere near enough.
Obrien....didnt see much of him.
Dow....didnt see much of him - even less than O'Brien
Fisher...missed  his input a lot - looked better than ever until Howe kicked him in or around the ankle
Jones....missed as well - outstanding before he was injured - especially some of his tackles
Marchbank...still rusty....
Ed...ok on Smith and battled on, needed to be on Mitchell... good job on Smith who must be about the biggest whinger in the AFL - bleats to the umpires ever time he doesn't get his own way

I refuse to blame Bolton for this predicament, although his dogmatic, generic coaching shtick is wearing thin.   The players are equally culpable.   Effort,  application and execution of basic skills,  nothing beyond them in those demands.

John Barker is Head of Strategy and High Performance.

Who’s Head of Low Performance? That guy’s smashing it!

I refuse to blame Bolton for this predicament, although his dogmatic, generic coaching shtick is wearing thin.   The players are equally culpable.   Effort,  application and execution of basic skills,  nothing beyond them in those demands.

Every coach would be in the same boat.

He was on a hiding to nothing from the get go.

Anyone who is critical of the coach needs to examine their heads.

Bolton has signed onto a club that had the potential to ruin his reputation as a coach from the get go, and has had to suffer through us trading out bonafide AFL players each and every trade and draft period only to see them replaced with guys on the delist pile from other clubs whilst putting his energy into playing young draftees and some GWS retreads who are yet to cement themselves as AFL players.

Whilst doing so he's been positive, he's sticking to the theme, he has conducted himself with decorum and continues to get the blokes out there every week attempting to do something positive.

Rewind to season 2015.  we finished dead last and despite how bad this season has been that season was so much worse because we weren't playing a bunch of kids but we had similar continuity problems but our issues then were that blokes simply were better than what they were giving us but weren't trying or were poorly mused.  Not to mention the coach was embarrassing in press conferences.  

We had no choice.   We had to trade out those players for picks.  Some on here were advocating going harder too.

The hardest part of this rebuild was always going to be transforming the club culture and I think we are seeing that now and it's echoed in the faithful being so confident that they're right and the coach is hopeless.   Think about it.  We all hate seeing this mess we are in,but there is no way our blokes kick 4 in a row if they weren't trying and odds are any lack of effort stems from an inability to see how they can possibly win with half a side under the age of 21.

What we are witnessing now is a team trapped in a losing environment with no escape from it obvious to them. A very difficult situation for both them and the coach leading to a loss of self-belief and a fall in morale to rock bottom. This is the major risk of a bottom out rebuild and for the sake of all season's end can't come soon enough. We are absolutely desperate for a good win but I can't see where we'll get one from.

Problems run a lot deeper than just "the guys aren't trying hard enough".

We can only pray atm that BB can pull us all through this and that SOS can attract the right players for 2019.

What kills us every week is that the opposition moves the ball so much better than we do.
They hit targets more regularly by hand and foot and run to space instinctively because they're confident their team mates won't cough it up.
We look timid because we don't have the skills which allow us to take risks, so we play safe, and get exposed.
McKay spotted up Marchbank with a lovely ball, Marchbank took the set shot and kicked it out of bounds.
It destroys confidence, and it's contagious.

I agree with what you say re coughing up the ball. We are very inconsistent with our kicking.
What I will say though, is our pressure when we are defending is almost non existent, and that allows the opposition to look a lot better than they probably are.
2 weeks ago, I counted at least 3 times where the opposition had a kick in from a behind, 6 uncontested marks resulting in an easy shot on goal. 1 of those was 2 marks inside 50. Resulted in 2 goals and a behind.
Last night, watch the vision of Hawthorn coming out of defence, our guys would mark space, the ball runner runs to our guy, handballs over the top to an unmarked player (his opponent marking space 3-4 metres away), then runs on past our next guy for the next Hawks ball runner to rinse and repeat. Coast to coast with uncontested possessions.
Our forwards are not at all defensively minded, FFS they wont work hard enough when we have the ball let alone when we don't. Our midfielders don't work hard enough in defense, and then the defense stand 5 metres off their opponent and wonder why their opponent takes an easy mark.
People are going to say, "well we had 2 rotations down, our guys were cooked", what about the games when we weren't? Same result.
Our guys are lazy and don't work hard enough.


Why is that?

I agree with what you say re coughing up the ball. We are very inconsistent with our kicking.
What I will say though, is our pressure when we are defending is almost non existent, and that allows the opposition to look a lot better than they probably are.
2 weeks ago, I counted at least 3 times where the opposition had a kick in from a behind, 6 uncontested marks resulting in an easy shot on goal. 1 of those was 2 marks inside 50. Resulted in 2 goals and a behind.
Last night, watch the vision of Hawthorn coming out of defence, our guys would mark space, the ball runner runs to our guy, handballs over the top to an unmarked player (his opponent marking space 3-4 metres away), then runs on past our next guy for the next Hawks ball runner to rinse and repeat. Coast to coast with uncontested possessions.
Our forwards are not at all defensively minded, FFS they wont work hard enough when we have the ball let alone when we don't. Our midfielders don't work hard enough in defense, and then the defense stand 5 metres off their opponent and wonder why their opponent takes an easy mark.
People are going to say, "well we had 2 rotations down, our guys were cooked", what about the games when we weren't? Same result.
Our guys are lazy and don't work hard enough.


Why is that?

That imo is a classic symptom of a bad collapse in team morale, see my previous post.

It's been a crap year for sure.  No denying it.  Most of us thought the previous 2 years were reasonable all things considered. There has been no continuity as a team this year.  Judging the 3 years as a whole and taking everything into consideration i'm not jumping ship yet.  less confident than i was at the start of the season, but not keen on bringing out the pitchforks for now. i will judge them at the end of next season so they have a chance to reply for this season. lots of teams have hiccup years it's just that ours is coming off a very low base so we look bloody awful. we have totally stunk it up this year.

This.

That imo is a classic symptom of a bad collapse in team morale, see my previous post.

I'm not so sure Cookie.
I would agree that it's not helping, but I don't agree that it's a major issue.
This has been happening the whole year. We have played a couple of really good games, that should be enough to get morale up, then we come out the next week and play like we are entitled to win based on last weeks performance.
Add to that, some of these guys are playing for their spot on an AFL list. They aren't going to get another chance. I'd think that would be incentive enough.
I've said it before and I will probably be laughed at for saying it again...
Want to know why guys like Polsen get a game? Because they don't leave anything out on the field. Why do our forwards get dropped and can't get back in (unless the MC reads too many news articles and fold to media pressure)? No work ethic.

I refuse to blame Bolton for this predicament, although his dogmatic, generic coaching shtick is wearing thin.   The players are equally culpable.   Effort,  application and execution of basic skills,  nothing beyond them in those demands.

Bolton is tactically very poor IMO......dopey Zone defense you could drive a convoy through and just refuses to acknowledge the better players in the opposition teams...ie Mitchell yesterday......it was coaching 101 to tag him and Bolton did what he has done for 3 years now and froze in the coaches box along with Barker and the other goon squad we have assembled.

I'll say it again...it's not so much your opinions that you get attacked for because your disappointment and views are shared by a few folk.
It's the way you express it.

We're not a great club at present, Bolton may prove not to be a great coach...and the admin... well we're not too sure who they are from day to day at the moment... but putrid is just over the top.

Lods,

here is a definition of 'putrid'

putrid
ˈ
1. decaying or rotting and emitting a fetid smell.
   
2. very unpleasant; repulsive.

I would say both of these definitions are suitable for where we are at a the minute.  1-16?????   This is breaking all sort of records for the wrong reason.  So is 2-27???

I would say 'putrid' is putting it nicely.

Couple of things:
In the first quarter especially, there were a quite a few times where the Carlton player would try to cover off a Hawk and move to (say) the left.  Hawk easily moved to the right and was away.  It was frustrating to watch.

Culture/effort and all that.  We are shooting ourselves in the foot a bit.  We bring in blokes like Rhys Palmer and Billie Smedts - mature age that can help us out and they play less than a handful of games in either the ones or twos.  One season later they're gone.  Got rid of over 40 players in three seasons.  Hard to build a team like that when a lot of players would be looking over their shoulders seeing if they are the next to go.  Add that to at least 3 changes every week and it makes it very hard to build cohesion.  The players certainly don't look as if they are playing for each other.

It is really hard to know what the club is looking for from these players (are Mullet and O'Shea the next two to be treated the same?) and what players they are looking at down the track.

In the meantime, I will be surprised if we get within 10 goals of anyone for the rest of the season.

(ps congrats to whoever said Bruest 5 goals, Blues 7)

IBWT
Just check your Personal Messages ;)

Reality is, do we believe we have the best people in place to get us out of this crap?  Do we believe what we've been told?

Personally I have to believe that BB, SOS & Co are a lot smarter and knowledgeable than me so I will stay on board.  It's hard watching and I feel for the boys getting smashed out on the ground, but hopefully we will turn it around sooner rather than later.

We have no option but to stay the course.  If we fire BB, who replaces him?  No, sorry, I'm not doing that again.

Look to last year, BB CAN coach.  Do you think what he's doing goes unchecked, ie Mitchell not being tagged?  There had to have been a reason, a lesson in there or simply didn't have anyone to tag him - I don't know.  But what I know is that they're all in it together, it's their reputations on the line, they will get us out of this. (Hopes and prays to the footy gods! )

An aside - was Murphy injured y'day?  He looked terrible to me - and I am not a slammer of him usually but was extremely frustrating to watch him.

Bolton is tactically very poor IMO......dopey Zone defense you could drive a convoy through and just refuses to acknowledge the better players in the opposition teams...ie Mitchell yesterday......it was coaching 101 to tag him and Bolton did what he has done for 3 years now and froze in the coaches box along with Barker and the other goon squad we have assembled.

Surely we have one other player, other than Ed Curnow, who can run with someone... i mean, put Lochie O'Brien on Smith and see what happens... but you simply had to put Ed on Mitchell yesterday.

Mitchell has to get 30+ to have an impact, so make him scrap for them. 

Look to last year, BB CAN coach.  Do you think what he's doing goes unchecked, ie Mitchell not being tagged?  There had to have been a reason, a lesson in there or simply didn't have anyone to tag him - I don't know.  But what I know is that they're all in it together, it's their reputations on the line, they will get us out of this. (Hopes and prays to the footy gods! )

I was thinking the same thing.
Lot's of folk asking why Mitchell was allowed the free reign...even the commentators.
If it was that obvious to everyone.
Blind Freddy would have tagged him.
The answer to the question is..there must have been a reason.

(Edit...OK so I've just listened to Bolton's after match...and Mitchell's initial match-up was  Zac Fisher!!!-for education .... and when Fisher went down it became the responsibility of some of the other  younger ones. When asked why he didn't use Curnow..."It would have been robbing Peter to pay Paul...we're two down on rotations")

Reality is, do we believe we have the best people in place to get us out of this crap?  Do we believe what we've been told?

Personally I have to believe that BB, SOS & Co are a lot smarter and knowledgeable than me so I will stay on board.  It's hard watching and I feel for the boys getting smashed out on the ground, but hopefully we will turn it around sooner rather than later.

We have no option but to stay the course.  If we fire BB, who replaces him?  No, sorry, I'm not doing that again.

Look to last year, BB CAN coach.  Do you think what he's doing goes unchecked, ie Mitchell not being tagged?  There had to have been a reason, a lesson in there or simply didn't have anyone to tag him - I don't know.  But what I know is that they're all in it together, it's their reputations on the line, they will get us out of this. (Hopes and prays to the footy gods! )

That’s pretty much how I see it and I wonder if anyone believes that the result yesterday would have been any different if Clarkson was coaching us?

I thought that our effort was pretty good considering we were undermanned from the outset and losing two of our better players knocked our stuffing out.  I suspect that we may cop another fine for allowing Cripps to stay on the ground.  He was clearly affected by the coward punch in the first half.

A positive for me was Polson’s continued improvement.  I’m glad that the MC is persevering with him.  He did pull that goal out of his clacker but a little bit of luck can be an important factor in a bloke’s career.

I refuse to blame Bolton for this predicament, although his dogmatic, generic coaching shtick is wearing thin.   The players are equally culpable.   Effort,  application and execution of basic skills,  nothing beyond them in those demands.

Don't blame him alone, blame the lot of them!

As others have said, the failure to draft in 3 or 4 more seasoned (good or better) players in 2016 or 2017 reeks.

That said, it seems such an obvious oversight that it must be by design?

And let's be honest, blind freddie knew that the likes of O'Shea, Muppet and Shaw weren't going to add much, if anything, to the team's overall performance?

Perhaps they're keeping their powder dry as they know definitively that there's a big fish - or three - coming to CFC!?

I pray.

A positive for me was Polson’s continued improvement.  I’m glad that the MC is persevering with him.  He did pull that goal out of his clacker but a little bit of luck can be an important factor in a bloke’s career.

From what I see of him, he tries his absolute guts out.

What do we think of Harry?  That goal of Poulsen's highlighted something to me of Harry's game - that ball was still live, going who knows where, and Harry was running towards it but not at high speed (he had a Hawks player next to him).  He then turns and starts celebrating, before the ball has gone through the goal posts and then SPRINTS towards Poulsen to celebrate it.

He ran faster to celebrate the goal, than he did to try and get it initially!  And we all know that was an arsey kick! 

Is that his work ethic being shown up there? 

ETA I fear a bit for him in that he may be quite happy to just cruise along and that the reason Casboult and others get games before Harry is due to work ethic - then the Media highlight Harry sitting in the stands while we're belted by the Lions and suddenly he's in again.  I worry we'll see him sitting atop the Coleman Medal tally in 5 years time after being let go from us as not a hard enough worker, then finally coming good at his 2nd/3rd team.  I hope not!

I was thinking the same thing.
Lot's of folk asking why Mitchell was allowed the free reign...even the commentators.
If it was that obvious to everyone.
Blind Freddy would have tagged him.
The answer to the question is..there must have been a reason.

Mitchell does get a lot of cheap low impact possessions... of course if you get 46 of them it starts to have a lot of impact.

So i think there is a thought that you are better off stopping Smith, and maybe going head to head with Mitchell. Mitchell did have 43 possessions (not sure if he was tagged, but Fagan was coaching) last week and they lost.

That might be ok if you have some midfield depth... but we don't.

 :))

.......................................

Look to last year, BB CAN coach.  Do you think what he's doing goes unchecked, ie Mitchell not being tagged?  There had to have been a reason, a lesson in there or simply didn't have anyone to tag him - I don't know.  But what I know is that they're all in it together, it's their reputations on the line, they will get us out of this. (Hopes and prays to the footy gods! )

Bolton has explained quite clearly in the past that he is trying to teach the kids to win - he's not interested in honourable losses, and keeps the tagging to a minimum because too many taggers means less players in offensive roles.

Whether supporters agree / disagree, think he's a sh1t coach, full of crap etc. is another matter. His approach is not unheard of in AFL circles.

Bolton has explained quite clearly in the past that he is trying to teach the kids to win - he's not interested in honourable losses, and keeps the tagging to a minimum because too many taggers means less players in offensive roles.

Whether supporters agree / disagree, think he's a sh1t coach, full of crap etc. is another matter. His approach is not unheard of in AFL circles.

Done a remarkable job this season 'teaching the kids to win'.  :o

That's just BS spin.

Its hard to say atm re BB strategy , finding a full team would be a start, hasn't really had the players on a consistant  basis of late , injuries are robbing him

We reacted badly after a bad year and ton of injuries to oust Rats. If we do it again now we are doomed.

We reacted badly after a bad year and ton of injuries to oust Rats. If we do it again now we are doomed.

We have to do something.
I accepted we wouldn’t be finalists this year, but over three years skills have gone backwards, our game plan has been proven time and time again to have gaping flaws but we stick with it, our injured list is huge, and players under perform each week with a lack of intensity.
Injuries don’t account for all of this (ok maybe the being injured bit)
There have to be some coaching changes in the post season.

From what I see of him, he tries his absolute guts out.

What do we think of Harry?  That goal of Poulsen's highlighted something to me of Harry's game - that ball was still live, going who knows where, and Harry was running towards it but not at high speed (he had a Hawks player next to him).  He then turns and starts celebrating, before the ball has gone through the goal posts and then SPRINTS towards Poulsen to celebrate it.

He ran faster to celebrate the goal, than he did to try and get it initially!  And we all know that was an arsey kick! 

Is that his work ethic being shown up there? 

ETA I fear a bit for him in that he may be quite happy to just cruise along and that the reason Casboult and others get games before Harry is due to work ethic - then the Media highlight Harry sitting in the stands while we're belted by the Lions and suddenly he's in again.  I worry we'll see him sitting atop the Coleman Medal tally in 5 years time after being let go from us as not a hard enough worker, then finally coming good at his 2nd/3rd team.  I hope not!

Mickey, if you were at the game yesterday you wouldn't have anything to complain about with Harry's work rate.
Levi on the other hand.................

We reacted badly after a bad year and ton of injuries to oust Rats. If we do it again now we are doomed.

We have a recent history of sacking coaches after "injury hit" seasons.
Once they're gone you lose the capacity to say for sure how they would have/ could have bounced back.

I'm a big believer in redemption...so I'm for giving Bolton another 12 months to see if he can achieve the "bounce".
If we're in the same or similar position this time next year it's probably fair to say 'enough is enough'.

We were crap before all the injuries hit.

We were crap before all the injuries hit.

We weren't great...but injuries to Carlton have a greater effect than injuries to a club with depth and maturity.
Apart from the listed injuries we probably have a few players playing when they shouldn't be.

We have to do something.
I accepted we wouldn’t be finalists this year, but over three years skills have gone backwards, our game plan has been proven time and time again to have gaping flaws but we stick with it, our injured list is huge, and players under perform each week with a lack of intensity.
Injuries don’t account for all of this (ok maybe the being injured bit)
There have to be some coaching changes in the post season.

That is the exact wrong reason to do something.

We sack coaches more because "we have to do something" rather than knowing what to do.

Thats the best way to ensure failure.

Doing something for the sake of doing something.

You end up not knowing what you have done, because every time you "do something" you end up with a result you didn't intend.

We have to do something.
I accepted we wouldn’t be finalists this year, but over three years skills have gone backwards, our game plan has been proven time and time again to have gaping flaws but we stick with it, our injured list is huge, and players under perform each week with a lack of intensity.
Injuries don’t account for all of this (ok maybe the being injured bit)
There have to be some coaching changes in the post season.

The effort was fine on the weekend, indicators of effort (contested pos, clearances and hard ball gets) were in the Blues favor for the majority of the match. Our Median age (playing 21.5 this weekend, far and away the youngest in the comp) bottomed out this year, plus we have racked up the injuries.  It's not fun to watch but it is the reality of where the club is at, as SOS said on the TV the other night it is relatively easy to build a list to finish 8th, that is not what we want. If we lose our nerve and move on Bolts I am sure that is where we end up.

The effort was fine on the weekend, indicators of effort (contested pos, clearances and hard ball gets) were in the Blues favor for the majority of the match. Our Median age (playing 21.5 this weekend, far and away the youngest in the comp) bottomed out this year, plus we have racked up the injuries.  It's not fun to watch but it is the reality of where the club is at, as SOS said on the TV the other night it is relatively easy to build a list to finish 8th, that is not what we want. If we lose our nerve and move on Bolts I am sure that is where we end up.

Casboult's effort wasn't fine.
He stunk. Seriously pathetic.
Based on that performance he should be shown the door.

from ESPN:

AFL coaches: By Round 18 you'd think AFL coaches would have learnt that you need to put some time into Tom Mitchell. The Hawthorn ball-magnet has shortened into odds on favouritism to win the 2018 Brownlow Medal after a dominant first three quarters of the year, yet the majority of coaches still opt not to run with him.

This week it was Carlton's Brendon Bolton who decided against going with a tag and the Blues were made to be punished. Mitchell racked up 46 disposals, won six clearances, took nine marks, laid nine tackles and booted two goals as the Hawks thrashed the Blues by 72 points in yet another best on ground performance.

It really irritated me that we let Mitchell roam around unmarked. Granted that Ed can only look after one at a time, but we need to have guys who can do that job.

from ESPN:


AFL coaches: By Round 18 you'd think AFL coaches would have learnt that you need to put some time into Tom Mitchell. The Hawthorn ball-magnet has shortened into odds on favouritism to win the 2018 Brownlow Medal after a dominant first three quarters of the year, yet the majority of coaches still opt not to run with him.

This week it was Carlton's Brendon Bolton who decided against going with a tag and the Blues were made to be punished. Mitchell racked up 46 disposals, won six clearances, took nine marks, laid nine tackles and booted two goals as the Hawks thrashed the Blues by 72 points in yet another best on ground performance.

Why do you think that is ?

Why?

Because most coaches are thick.

Why?

Because most coaches are thick.

Yeah, that must be why.

Yeah, that must be why.

Why do you think they leave him alone?

What I will say though, is our pressure when we are defending is almost non existent, and that allows the opposition to look a lot better than they probably are.

This is at once the most puzzling and biggest indictment on the club afaic.  It's been that way for 15 years!  :o

Why do you think that is ?

It was the same with Ablett at his top, you couldn't stop him anyway and having someone concentrating solely on him meant effectively playing a man short.
The dickhead roughing Cripps up yesterday had little or no effect on his output but Clarkson loves that sort of stuff.

You cannot compare Ablett to Mitchell.

You cannot be serious!!

You cannot compare Ablett to Mitchell.

You cannot be serious!!

Not ability wise but they're both ball magnets, like Carrazzo to a lesser extent.
We used to try and tag Ablett with Aaron Joseph, that was usually good for a laugh.

It was the same with Ablett at his top, you couldn't stop him anyway and having someone concentrating solely on him meant effectively playing a man short.
The dickhead roughing Cripps up yesterday had little or no effect on his output but Clarkson loves that sort of stuff.

Geez that's garbage.
If Ed Curnow played on him it impacts his game.
Kennedy should have been given the job, not SPS.
SPS never tried to curtail his output.

Kennedy's stats were interesting. 29 possessions, 15 contested, 7 clearances, 30 pressure acts and a goal. Starting to show why we got him.

Kennedy's stats were interesting. 29 possessions, 15 contested, 7 clearances, 30 pressure acts and a goal. Starting to show why we got him.

Indeed, but people will still bag him for disposal efficiency etc. He's played just 29 games (under a season and a half in total).  He's a pup with a s46tload of upside, on an interrupted preseason and very interrupted season. He will be very important in the breakout year of 2020!

Kennedy's stats were interesting. 29 possessions, 15 contested, 7 clearances, 30 pressure acts and a goal. Starting to show why we got him.

So we effectively had 3 x 30 possession mids and got flogged.

Exactly why we should have put a lot more work in to Mitchell.

Bit surprised there is no love for Shaw, I thought for a second game he was reasonable early when most of the team around him was rubbish.

So we effectively had 3 x 30 possession mids and got flogged.

Exactly why we should have put a lot more work in to Mitchell.

Yes, you don't let regular 40+ possession blokes run around on his own. I'm sure Mitchell would've been expecting Curnow and would've been pleased to see him go to Isaac Smith.

Just thought of the 3 x 30 possession players. We're getting quite a to number of players playing well in games. A number good and number totally $hithouse, nothing in-between.

I suppose we had one on the bench at times, it's hard enough tagging Mitchell when you have a full rotation available!

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the commentators during the game made mention of Mitchell not usually scoring too well in the coaches votes. Like I said not 100% that’s what they said, but fairly sure.
If that’s the case, then I’d suggest most coaches don’t tag him because he doesn’t have 40+ possessions worth if influence on the game… that’s certainly not the case yesterday, but I have seen him rack up possessions in the past for little impact.

Why do you think they leave him alone?

Answer 1 :

I suppose we had one on the bench at times, it's hard enough tagging Mitchell when you have a full rotation available!

Answer 2 :

It was the same with Ablett at his top, you couldn't stop him anyway and having someone concentrating solely on him meant effectively playing a man short.
The dickhead roughing Cripps up yesterday had little or no effect on his output but Clarkson loves that sort of stuff.

Other answers :
- coaches play follow the leader and just copy each other
- as per Nathan Buckley's comments last season (earlier this season?) his possession don't usually hurt
- Hawthorn has more damaging players than him, and you can't tag everybody
- all of the above

.................................The dickhead roughing Cripps up yesterday had little or no effect on his output but Clarkson loves that sort of stuff.

Given the sort of rubbish Lamb has dished up, I find it hard to sympathise.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the commentators during the game made mention of Mitchell not usually scoring too well in the coaches votes. Like I said not 100% that’s what they said, but fairly sure.
If that’s the case, then I’d suggest most coaches don’t tag him because he doesn’t have 40+ possessions worth if influence on the game… that’s certainly not the case yesterday, but I have seen him rack up possessions in the past for little impact.

He does handball alot so the receiver does the damage for him.

Answer 1 :

Answer 2 :

Other answers :
- coaches play follow the leader and just copy each other
- as per Nathan Buckley's comments last season (earlier this season?) his possession don't usually hurt
- Hawthorn has more damaging players than him, and you can't tag everybody
- all of the above

Yep

These days they look at metres gained and score involvements.

There is another factor.  Teams that are man oriented tend to get hurt, because opposition teams can push them into situations they don't like being.

i.e. Tag Mitchell, he simply extracts himself from a position of influence, and out to no mans land where his opponent (Ed) follows him.  As a result, you end up with Isaac Smith going into that hole instead and being just as damaging.


I have a different theory on why they don't tag him.  I think that Hawthorn end up in a worse overall team performance when he gets more of it.

Yep

These days they look at metres gained and score involvements.

There is another factor.  Teams that are man oriented tend to get hurt, because opposition teams can push them into situations they don't like being.

i.e. Tag Mitchell, he simply extracts himself from a position of influence, and out to no mans land where his opponent (Ed) follows him.  As a result, you end up with Isaac Smith going into that hole instead and being just as damaging.


I have a different theory on why they don't tag him.  I think that Hawthorn end up in a worse overall team performance when he gets more of it.

Was clearly BOG I thought.
Smashed us and his disposal was fine.
46 Posessions, 2 goals 2 Behinds and 9 tackles.

I reckon Clarkson would be reasonably happy with his output

Fans tend to look in one direction, coaches will be watching Mitchell's opponent as well. It's probably what stops Mitchell being dominant, if he could put the breaks on an opponent as well he'd be better than most.

Not saying that he wasn't BoG this week, but he's had a lot of big stat games this season and surprisingly few AFLCA votes. If Cripps collected stats like that he'd be 30 pts clear in the AFLCA voting!

Indeed, but people will still bag him for disposal efficiency etc. He's played just 29 games (under a season and a half in total).  He's a pup with a s46tload of upside, on an interrupted preseason and very interrupted season. He will be very important in the breakout year of 2020!

Amen!

Amen!

Agree on Kennedy, thought he looked very good yesterday.  Sure there's improvement to be made, but he got in there and got the ball - a bit fumbly with it but that confidence will come.

Howe got 2 weeks for hitting Cripps and has been referred straight to the Tribunal for the trip on Fisher. Latter is "no early plea, severe impact".

So Howe either took out or reduced the effectiveness of 2 of our 3 best players. Who's their coach again?

This is where Carlton needs to get old fashioned.  Don't say anything (or much). Don't bleat. Just wait ...

But we won't. We're such good AFL citizens. He'll have a "breakout" game for them against us next season.  ::)

Howe got 2 weeks for hitting Cripps and has been referred straight to the Tribunal for the trip on Fisher. Latter is "no early plea, severe impact".

Mirabile visu!

So Howe either took out or reduced the effectiveness of 2 of our 3 best players. Who's their coach again?

This is where Carlton needs to get old fashioned.  Don't say anything (or much). Don't bleat. Just wait ...

But we won't. We're such good AFL citizens. He'll have a "breakout" game for them against us next season.  ::)

I hope there is a little karma with this one. bad enough that Clarkson is a thug, a liar and a hypocrite, but to have this!!??  I really hope that this guy ends up getting what he deserves.

And people went off over Lamb.   Lamb was/is a pest, he doesn't maim players.

And people went off over Lamb.   Lamb was/is a pest, he doesn't maim players.

X2

Good to see the MRO acting appropriately for a change!

So much for David king saying Howe didn’t mean to him cripps in the face and trying to fob it off - really want someone to hold him accountable when he commentates our next game. D*ck.

X2

Good to see the MRO acting appropriately for a change!

So much for David king saying Howe didn’t mean to hit cripps in the face and trying to fob it off - really want someone to hold him accountable when he commentates our next game. D*ck.

Most of the ex-player commentators are as weak as p1ss when it comes reportable incidents and some of the "professional" commentators aren't much better.

Eddie remarked that Casboult contributed to his high contact (by trying to pick the footy up).  The vision clearly shows Henderson looking at Casboult and lining him up.  Henderson is lucky to get away with a fine and Casboult is lucky to escape a very serious injury. 

Casboult should be dealing with seagulls like Henderson without a second thought.   One hundred games later and we're still waiting.

Casboult should be dealing with seagulls like Henderson without a second thought.   One hundred games later and we're still waiting.

Just a bit tough Prof;  Casboult was over the ball and Henderson lined him up.  I'm not sure that Lockett would have dealt with that situation any better than Levi - although it would have been a brave man who chose to inflict pain on Lockett.  

What I'm saying is that Casboult should be the kind of player that blokes like Henderson steer clear of,  instead Henderson (who isn't renowned for toughness)  felt he could get away with a cheap shot.   Casboult,  at 100 plus kg should be putting the fear of god into opponents like that,  instead he got lined up. In the AFl you're either the road train or roadkill.... And our lack of physicality has relegated us as the latter.

We have to do something.
I accepted we wouldn’t be finalists this year, but over three years skills have gone backwards, our game plan has been proven time and time again to have gaping flaws but we stick with it, our injured list is huge, and players under perform each week with a lack of intensity.
Injuries don’t account for all of this (ok maybe the being injured bit)
There have to be some coaching changes in the post season.

Have the skills gone backwards or has the execution been poor ?
There is a difference.

from ESPN:

And yet the consensus of this place is that Mitchell gets it a lot, but does nothing with it, and if he does nothing with it why bother tagging ?
Move Ed you say... BB thought Smith was the more damaging of the two and needed to be clamped.

And yet the consensus of this place is that Mitchell gets it a lot, but does nothing with it, and if he does nothing with it why bother tagging ?
Move Ed you say... BB thought Smith was the more damaging of the two and needed to be clamped.

Mitchell had about 12 scoring involvements.......DE of 78% and 9 tackles
Coaches votes below

CARLTON v HAWTHORN
10 Tom Mitchell (HAW)
7 Luke Breust (HAW)
7 Paul Puopolo (HAW)
4 James Worpel (HAW)
1 Ricky Henderson (HAW)

Our coach is an idiot......

Mitchell had about 12 scoring involvements.......DE of 78% and 9 tackles
Coaches votes below

CARLTON v HAWTHORN
10 Tom Mitchell (HAW)
7 Luke Breust (HAW)
7 Paul Puopolo (HAW)
4 James Worpel (HAW)
1 Ricky Henderson (HAW)

Our coach is an idiot......

That’s all 20/20 hindsight mate.
Make that call at 1/4 time and watch Smith rip us a new one.
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t...

That’s all 20/20 hindsight mate.
Make that call at 1/4 time and watch Smith rip us a new one.
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t...

Thats BS...Mitchell has been racking them up for weeks now and had 14 possies in the 1st quarter, OMeara was out and they had Worpel and ORourke as their
2nd and 3rd mids....dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure out who to tag either before the game or after Mitchell had racked up 14 possies in the 1st quarter.
Bolton is inept tactically and not the first time he has fecked up like this...Mitchell had 43 the week before at DE of 83%...how can you let a player like Mitchell run around
unopposed?

Here is Paul Roos opinion below... IMHO we dont have a clue in the coaches box and how our kids can progress I dont know...

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/carltons-handling-of-hawthorn-star-tom-mitchell-was-indefensible-says-paul-roos/news-story/84a201a1fd4273316f4f9176cf3d9fa1

Have the skills gone backwards or has the execution been poor ?
There is a difference.

Isn't the execution part of the skill?

Needed analysis to determine how Smith gets his possessions.  If he is a high hand ball received kind of player you clamp down on the earlier link in the chain - Mitchell.  That's Barkers job,  you know the master strategist in the box who clearly has mastered snakes and ladders, not chess.

Personally I would have clamped Mitchell and as I said pre-match,  run LoB on Smith.   Smith is a high impact player but can't impact if he hasn't got the pill.   These moves are so obvious I start thinking about the old tanking chestnut.

I've mentioned this more than once - BB gets the heat but WTF do blokes like Barker contribute?  

Bolton is one of many coaches who don't tag Mitchell. When you are in the position we're in, every decision looks like the wrong one.

Say we did put a heavy tag on Mitchell - what then ? Instead of 46 possessions, maybe he gets 20 odd. Instead of 9 tackles, maybe he lays 4. Instead of 2 goals 2, maybe he kicks 1 goal, or simply 2 behinds. Then what ? Hawks still win easily.

Tagging is very over rated, and a minor problem for us in the greater scheme of things. Our biggest problems are in the areas of ball movement, skill execution, player experience and injury, and all the taggers in the world won't help with that.

Bolton is one of many coaches who don't tag Mitchell. When you are in the position we're in, every decision looks like the wrong one.

Say we did put a heavy tag on Mitchell - what then ? Instead of 46 possessions, maybe he gets 20 odd. Instead of 9 tackles, maybe he lays 4. Instead of 2 goals 2, maybe he kicks 1 goal, or simply 2 behinds. Then what ? Hawks still win easily.

Tagging is very over rated, and a minor problem for us in the greater scheme of things. Our biggest problems are in the areas of ball movement, skill execution, player experience and injury, and all the taggers in the world won't help with that.

Your right, our biggest problem is ball movement but not ours, the oppositions.
Our pressure, the stuff that we would be judged on, is terrible.
Our "zone defence" is woeful. Opposition simply play right through the middle of it week after week, and we keep doing the same crap.
Maybe we need to do the small things better Paul, like impacting the effectiveness of the oppositions best player.
Pressure him so he isn't as effective by foot which might mean he has 3 score involvements not 12.

Tagging is very over rated

One of the more vacuous comments I've heard on here for some time....

Your right, our biggest problem is ball movement but not ours, the oppositions.
Our pressure, the stuff that we would be judged on, is terrible.
Our "zone defence" is woeful. Opposition simply play right through the middle of it week after week, and we keep doing the same crap.
Maybe we need to do the small things better Paul, like impacting the effectiveness of the oppositions best player.
Pressure him so he isn't as effective by foot which might mean he has 3 score involvements not 12.

So we put a heavy tag on Mitchell, coach looks like a genius, and we lose by 9 or 10 goals instead of 12. Job done ?

Look, the coach isn't an idiot - he is quite aware of the pros and cons of tagging Mitchell. There's plenty of 50/50 decisions that you need to make as a coach. No coach has the manpower to cover all the bases, so you need to make a choice, and because Mitchell had a day out, folks say Bolton is an idiot. I say no, he isn't.

Tagging is not the same as general field pressure, 1%ers etc. At least not in my book.

Tagging is not the same as general field pressure, 1%ers etc. At least not in my book.

Tagging is greatly diminished now, the faster ball movement of the current game styles means having a guy who just stops is a luxury teams cannot afford!

Tagging is undervalued and a waste of time? but the bloke coaching the other team who is a multi premiership winning coach found it important enough to tag Cripps and send someone to belt him??

Think I'll stick with Clarkson and Roos ....We are clueless in the coaching box...Mitchell is the brownlow favourite and has been dominating, it was a no brainer.....

Tagging is undervalued and a waste of time? but the bloke coaching the other team who is a multi premiership winning coach found it important enough to tag Cripps and send someone to belt him??

Think I'll stick with Clarkson and Roos ....We are clueless in the coaching box...Mitchell is the brownlow favourite and has been dominating, it was a no brainer.....

 ;D

Tagging is undervalued and a waste of time? but the bloke coaching the other team who is a multi premiership winning coach found it important enough to tag Cripps and send someone to belt him??

Think I'll stick with Clarkson and Roos ....We are clueless in the coaching box...Mitchell is the brownlow favourite and has been dominating, it was a no brainer.....

Ed tagged Smith and did a much better job than Howe did on Cripps.  Clarkson should really have tried someone else on Cripps if he really wanted to curb his influence.  He probably should have had someone on Murphy too as he was second to Mitchell in metres gained.

Mitchell is rarely tagged, and I don’t believe that it’s all down to Buckley dismissing his impact.  Interestingly, Mitchell didn’t attract any coaches’ votes in his previous >40 possession game.  He reminds me of Ablett jnr at his best; a very good player who inflated his performances with inconsequential possessions.

I was happy to see our young blokes going head to head with Mitchell.  That will do much more for their development and the team’s progress than having Ed trying to lock Mitchell down.

Thats BS...Mitchell has been racking them up for weeks now and had 14 possies in the 1st quarter, OMeara was out and they had Worpel and ORourke as their
2nd and 3rd mids....dont need to be a rocket scientist to figure out who to tag either before the game or after Mitchell had racked up 14 possies in the 1st quarter.
Bolton is inept tactically and not the first time he has fecked up like this...Mitchell had 43 the week before at DE of 83%...how can you let a player like Mitchell run around
unopposed?

Here is Paul Roos opinion below... IMHO we dont have a clue in the coaches box and how our kids can progress I dont know...

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/carltons-handling-of-hawthorn-star-tom-mitchell-was-indefensible-says-paul-roos/news-story/84a201a1fd4273316f4f9176cf3d9fa1

Glad this was brought up. I watched On The Couch last night and always like Roos' insights/thoughts. Damning for BB or whoever the hell is running our coach's box (Barker?). "Indefensible... no brainer" etc re tagging either of Smith or Mitchell with Ed then tag the other with a kid to help him learn... yep, no brainer.

Our coaching box can't be so dumb, the only logical explanation is tanking.

Tagging is undervalued and a waste of time? but the bloke coaching the other team who is a multi premiership winning coach found it important enough to tag Cripps and send someone to belt him??

Think I'll stick with Clarkson and Roos ....We are clueless in the coaching box...Mitchell is the brownlow favourite and has been dominating, it was a no brainer.....

And Cripps' output was about normal, which proves my point. 30 disposals, 2 goals 1, 7 tackles. The tagger did little to quell his influence, and was effectively wasted. Even with their injuries, the Hawks could cover one man doing this job.

We have very limited resources. We can barely kick 80 points per game with 22 fit players and no taggers - how is playing 2 taggers going to help us ?

Whinging about tagging is one of the classic supporter lines. Through no fault of anyone of us, we are simply not privy to what happens in match committee meetings, in the coaches box etc. We can only react to simple scenarios - understandable but frustrating for all of us. Not playing a tag on Mitchell is part of a larger picture, which we don't know about.

When you have players kicking numerous set shots oof, when you have a team that are serial turnover merchants, when you have a team of kids and numpties struggling with zone defense, clearly Bolton has bigger problems than a tag.

Cripps finished strong and was probably our best player but he did nothing in the first quarter when the game was already over.

Howe: Mission accomplished

It's probably better to look at this in respect of the "pair" (Mitchell /Smith) rather than the "individual".
Ideally you tag them both.
That was the plan.
Fisher was the man for Mitchell.

Now, we send Curnow to Smith.... and Mitchell has a day out.
But if we send Curnow to Mitchell then Smith becomes more effective.

So you cant look at Mitchell's contribution in isolation.
You have to look at in terms of his contribution minus the effect of keeping Smith quieter (He had his second lowest possession game for the year)
....and that becomes a very much "lesser" total effect.

We should have tagged both?
Yep, But with who?
Kennedy was suggested several times by the commentators.
He's hard enough but he would have struggled with the running aspect.
Who else?
Prof E says O'Brien for Smith....a possibility. A good lesson if nothing else.

It does become a case of "robbing Peter to pay Paul", and when you're a couple of players down the ability to use another player with a purely run with role diminishes your options further.

Now I'm not excusing the coaches.
They made a judgement...and while one player was contained the other had a (predictably) exceptional game.
Am I critical Mitchell wasn't curtailed.
Yes I am.
Do I think Mitchell was more of priority than Smith.
Definitely! Statistically (and not just on disposals) there is daylight between them..
But I'm also glad it's not me with those decisions.
That's well above my pay grade.... and maybe not as simple or obvious as it looks in hindsight.

Tagging is over-rated in the modern game, especially when the tagged players can basically take and throw the ball away in a microsecond, in any direction, free of penalty.

All that happens under the current game trend is that if you assign a tag, they get dragged into the stoppage with other tacklers leaving the opposition with greater numbers on the outside. The tagged player basically feigns a hand pass to an outside team-mate who is free to spread, or drops the ball and knees/shuffles it into the outside space, with the tagger and his assistants left holding a ball free meat bag! :o

It's such an obvious tactic it's even implemented at the lowest levels. Take possession, draw some tacklers, let the ball go to a team-mate on the outside. The chance of which is greatly enhanced by the ability to throw or drop the ball in any direction you like with just the slightest feign of a hand ball attempt to ensure you are not pinged!

Penalise players for throws and the tagger again has of some value.

And Cripps' output was about normal, which proves my point. 30 disposals, 2 goals 1, 7 tackles. The tagger did little to quell his influence, and was effectively wasted. Even with their injuries, the Hawks could cover one man doing this job.

We have very limited resources. We can barely kick 80 points per game with 22 fit players and no taggers - how is playing 2 taggers going to help us ?

Whinging about tagging is one of the classic supporter lines. Through no fault of anyone of us, we are simply not privy to what happens in match committee meetings, in the coaches box etc. We can only react to simple scenarios - understandable but frustrating for all of us. Not playing a tag on Mitchell is part of a larger picture, which we don't know about.

When you have players kicking numerous set shots oof, when you have a team that are serial turnover merchants, when you have a team of kids and numpties struggling with zone defense, clearly Bolton has bigger problems than a tag.

I agree with most of that Paul.  However, Cripps was quieter than usual in the first quarter and that had me thinking that he may have been concussed.  I guess that clocking your opponent isn’t really tagging.

It’s interesting that Bolton is criticised for not tagging Mitchell when almost all other coaches do the same.  As you point out, Bolton has other higher priority issues to address than tagging a bloke who will still rack up possessions.

I agree with most of that Paul.  However, Cripps was quieter than usual in the first quarter and that had me thinking that he may have been concussed.  I guess that clocking your opponent isn’t really tagging.

It’s interesting that Bolton is criticised for not tagging Mitchell when almost all other coaches do the same.  As you point out, Bolton has other higher priority issues to address than tagging a bloke who will still rack up possessions.

Cripps problem is more about the players around him not knowing what to do, or being sucked into the stoppages, than his inability to win the football. Hawthorn would swap Cripps for Mitchell in a heartbeat!

Ed tagged Smith and did a much better job than Howe did on Cripps.  Clarkson should really have tried someone else on Cripps if he really wanted to curb his influence.  He probably should have had someone on Murphy too as he was second to Mitchell in metres gained.

Mitchell is rarely tagged, and I don’t believe that it’s all down to Buckley dismissing his impact.  Interestingly, Mitchell didn’t attract any coaches’ votes in his previous >40 possession game.  He reminds me of Ablett jnr at his best; a very good player who inflated his performances with inconsequential possessions.

I was happy to see our young blokes going head to head with Mitchell.  That will do much more for their development and the team’s progress than having Ed trying to lock Mitchell down.

Had 12 scoring involvements.....I dont see that as inconsequential, Bolton gave him the votes for the coaches award.......his DE was 80 plus last week and close to that vs us.......??
If Ed had tagged Curnow and Mitchell got his 40 plus then thats fine...I wont be potting BB for that but when you let him run around free then the coach should admit he made an error and learn from it....

Cripps problem is more about the players around him not knowing what to do, or being sucked into the stoppages, than his inability to win the football. Hawthorn would swap Cripps for Mitchell in a heartbeat!

Not sure they would......Mitchell is vastly under rated, he has little class help either other than OMeara...if he stinks it up so much why did we try and make a play for him?
Cripps is tagged every week and subject to intense rotating pressure from different players, I'm sure Clarkson is happy for dummies like Bolton to ignore Mitchell and let him pick up 40 plus each week....

Not sure they would......Mitchell is vastly under rated, he has little class help either other than OMeara...if he stinks it up so much why did we try and make a play for him?
Cripps is tagged every week and subject to intense rotating pressure from different players, I'm sure Clarkson is happy for dummies like Bolton to ignore Mitchell and let him pick up 40 plus each week....

If those Cripps tags are worthwhile how can it be that he leads the AFLCA voting?

It's a mugs game, Cripps like Judd before him wants the opponents to come to him, opposition have the maximum effectiveness against Cripps when they run off him not when they try to tackle him! They hurt us more than he hurts them by ignoring him, they know he won't run and spread, and he rarely pushes forward. If he starts pushing forward more they have to look at him in far more detail, he even stated that is his goal for 2018, and it's sound thinking!

A few weeks back I argued against SoJ getting a mid-field run. One of the reasons for this was I could see SoJ shows his inexperience by going to his inside team-mate to help them, that counteracts players like Cripps and Kennedy, they want the opposition to come to them so they can release to someone like SoJ on the outside who can move the ball on quickly by hand!

If those Cripps tags are worthwhile how can it be that he leads the AFLCA voting?

It's a mugs game, Cripps like Judd before him wants the opponents to come to him, opposition have the maximum effectiveness against Cripps when they run off him not when they try to tackle him! They hurt us more than he hurts them by ignoring him, they know he won't run and spread, and he rarely pushes forward. If he starts pushing forward more they have to look at him in far more detail, he even stated that is his goal for 2018, and it's sound thinking!

Cripps is a bit unit and a great player, hard to stop, but I'd still tag him ..Jacobs from Nth beat him, Buckley use Pendlebury in an effective manner on him IMO, even a 25% reduction in Cripps capacity is worth it IMO.
To leave Mitchell on his own was inexcusable as Roos suggested....

Cripps finished strong and was probably our best player but he did nothing in the first quarter when the game was already over.

Howe: Mission accomplished

Aha, someone gets it!

Cripps is a bit unit and a great player, hard to stop, but I'd still tag him ..Jacobs from Nth beat him, Buckley use Pendlebury in an effective manner on him IMO, even a 25% reduction in Cripps capacity is worth it IMO.
To leave Mitchell on his own was inexcusable as Roos suggested....

I think that game supports my claim even more, Cripps won plenty of football but basically had nobody to hand it off to and he couldn't hurt Norp on his own. Our little mids were bullied by Norps big bodies on the outside with players like Ziebell, Cunnington and Higgins having field days!

Tagging Cripps is like trying to push the Titanic into dock with a straw, tagging a spreading player like Martin is more like hanging an extra tonne of weight on an F1, maybe it slows him down a little! But even then if it takes two or three to slow Martin that leaves Nthmond's speed free on the outside! We should be like Nthmond, let Cripps dish it out and have some speed to receive it on the outside!

I suppose our problem at the moment is that players like Dow, Polson, SPS, Pickett, Garlett and Fisher are easily slowed by a single opponent.

Cripps finished strong and was probably our best player but he did nothing in the first quarter when the game was already over.

Howe: Mission accomplished

The defense rests. If the game is already over at 1/4 time, with a scoreline of 4.3 to 0.0, how will tagging Mitchell help ? Isn't the big problem that we can't score to save ourselves ?

Watch the game and check the stats - similar disposals, similar cp, but 35 I50's to 58. We are dead last for I50's, I think we average about 30 odd. When you put it all together, we are breaking down between the arcs, over and over again, and can't organise ourselves fast enough in defense on the turnover.

It's not a tagging issue.

It's not a tagging issue.

Yes I agree, for me it's almost everything else but a tagging issue!

It would be hypocritical of me to want more tags, after having kiboshed MM for a luddite game plan that had nothing but tags! That negative game plan, under the way the rules are currently interpreted and implemented, is too easily counteracted.

Further, specific to our list and players like Fisher, SPS, Dow and O'Brien, what would be the point of smashing kids on bodies they cannot stop! We may as well try and hurt them in ways we can, and most of our problems are not the inability to hurt teams in the way we can, it's the skill errors from the same old same olds that bring us undone!

Um, Tom Mitchell....182cm, 84kg.

SOJ - Paddy Dow? 184cm, 80kg (and i'd say a few kg on top).

The defense rests. If the game is already over at 1/4 time, with a scoreline of 4.3 to 0.0, how will tagging Mitchell help ? Isn't the big problem that we can't score to save ourselves ?

Watch the game and check the stats - similar disposals, similar cp, but 35 I50's to 58. We are dead last for I50's, I think we average about 30 odd. When you put it all together, we are breaking down between the arcs, over and over again, and can't organise ourselves fast enough in defense on the turnover.

It's not a tagging issue.

As Roos pointed out it was the ideal opportunity to teach a kid something, tagging/running with Mitchell. It was more than just a game gone by qtr time, our season is gone, so let's invest in teaching our blokes the patterns etc of AFL leaders? Opportunity knocked and we didn't answer.

But I suspect winning a game is about the last thing we want at present. Every time we lose a game, and get closer to having the no. 1 draft pick to use or trade, you can see SOS dancing up and down Lygon Street. If only we could be confident he'd use it to our greatest possible advantage.

A couple of random articles, for your edification and contemplation :

https://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/afl/2018/03/26/peter-schwab-tagging/

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/bucks-unlikely-to-budge-on-taggers-20180511-p4zeth.html

how many posessions did mitchell get against brisbane and they lost.It is the team and our game plan the promblem.

As Roos pointed out it was the ideal opportunity to teach a kid something, tagging/running with Mitchell. It was more than just a game gone by qtr time, our season is gone, so let's invest in teaching our blokes the patterns etc of AFL leaders? Opportunity knocked and we didn't answer.

But I suspect winning a game is about the last thing we want at present. Every time we lose a game, and get closer to having the no. 1 draft pick to use or trade, you can see SOS dancing up and down Lygon Street. If only we could be confident he'd use it to our greatest possible advantage.

Roos had an extremely negative coaching style, and has an extremely negative commentating style, which tells you something about a certain personality type. I posted an article from 2014 after the Demons copped a smacking, in which he blamed skill errors, bad execution etc. on the loss, all of which is conveniently forgotten when he, ahem.... "analyses" our game.

Roos had an extremely negative coaching style, and has an extremely negative commentating style, which tells you something about a certain personality type. I posted an article from 2014 after the Demons copped a smacking, in which he blamed skill errors, bad execution etc. on the loss, all of which is conveniently forgotten when he, ahem.... "analyses" our game.

That was during his first year and they had won 2 games the year before. We are in the 3rd year. Melbourne had 10 wins by the 3rd year of his rebuild, we are near winless. He had improved those issues by year 3.

how many posessions did mitchell get against brisbane and they lost.It is the team and our game plan the promblem.

43 disposals, 7 marks, 7 tackles, 1 goal 1.

And some comments from Clarkson after the Brisbane game :

"They won inside 50s 55-51 but couldn't convert.

""We just wasted so many chances. They were able to capitalise on their chances better than we were," Hawks coach Alastair Clarkson said.

"In the end we lost spirit and faith in the way we wanted to play.

"Some of it is just fundamental skills under heat, in terms of being able to make a good opportunity into a goal scoring chance.

"We just made some dreadful blunders. Some of those they ended up being two-goal swings.""

Boy oh boy wowee. Who would have thunk it ?

Our biggest problem is our zone. I saw a piece of footage that had Luke Bruest wandering around inside 50 by himself for about 15 seconds before taking an uncontested mark.

Our biggest problem is our zone. I saw a piece of footage that had Luke Bruest wandering around inside 50 by himself for about 15 seconds before taking an uncontested mark.

When one designs or builds a bespoke house, the two options at the very start that guide the whole process are whether you design something up to a standard, or down to a budget.

This is also Bolton's problem - does he come down to the level of his players, and accept whatever limitations this imposes, or does he set a standard, and expect his players to "upskill" and be able to play to the level required ?

There's plenty of teams that play zones.

Our biggest problem is our zone. I saw a piece of footage that had Luke Bruest wandering around inside 50 by himself for about 15 seconds before taking an uncontested mark.

Take a gander at the Brisbane game...A. Christiansen doing a Bruest and on his own with a paddock behind him. Lions centered the ball from the boundary and there he was for another easy goal.
Not sure why we continue the zone, no one knows how to play it and its embarrassing how many times its gets broken down and we have all these uncontested goals...it must be some sort of record..

Take a gander at the Brisbane game...A. Christiansen doing a Bruest and on his own with a paddock behind him. Lions centered the ball from the boundary and there he was for another easy goal.
Not sure why we continue the zone, no one knows how to play it and its embarrassing how many times its gets broken down and we have all these uncontested goals...it must be some sort of record..

BB seems very stubborn about this. It'll either make or break him I guess.

When one designs or builds a bespoke house, the two options at the very start that guide the whole process are whether you design something up to a standard, or down to a budget.

This is also Bolton's problem - does he come down to the level of his players, and accept whatever limitations this imposes, or does he set a standard, and expect his players to "upskill" and be able to play to the level required ?

There's plenty of teams that play zones.

I don't have a problem with zones, I have a problem with Bolton's zone.

It doesn't work.

I'm not buying that our players are that bad. We have a bunch of talented kids who have absolutely no idea what they're doing out there.

I don't have a problem with zones, I have a problem with Bolton's zone.

It doesn't work.

I'm not buying that our players are that bad. We have a bunch of talented kids who have absolutely no idea what they're doing out there.

It's not a one way street. I get that. Something is being lost in translation. Our zone was working fine for 2 seasons - why not now ? What's changed ? Too many kids ? Too many injuries (17 players have played in our back 6 this season) ? Could Docherty really be that important ? We don't seem to have anyone else who can really marshall the troops.

A couple of random articles, for your edification and contemplation :

https://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/afl/2018/03/26/peter-schwab-tagging/

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/bucks-unlikely-to-budge-on-taggers-20180511-p4zeth.html

Yep, and the tell in both articles is that you have to have the player capable before it is even worth considering!

If your tagger gets beaten anyway, very likely with a player Cripps, Mitchell or Martin, you are basically playing a man down all over the field!

Unless the tagger can stop an opponent, and hurt the opposition going the other way, it proves pretty pointless when the stats get analysed. Those purely negative tags are dead and buried in my opinion!

As Roos pointed out it was the ideal opportunity to teach a kid something, tagging/running with Mitchell. It was more than just a game gone by qtr time, our season is gone, so let's invest in teaching our blokes the patterns etc of AFL leaders? Opportunity knocked and we didn't answer.

But I suspect winning a game is about the last thing we want at present. Every time we lose a game, and get closer to having the no. 1 draft pick to use or trade, you can see SOS dancing up and down Lygon Street. If only we could be confident he'd use it to our greatest possible advantage.

I think that Samo and others got more out going head to head with Mitchell than they would have trying to tag him - and they will get even more out of it when they do their reviews.

Ed is an ideal tagger because he can win his own ball while blanketing an opponent.  A young bloke like Samo or O’Brien would have to focus 100% on trying to stop Mitchell and the last thing we need is another player getting next to no possessions.

Bolts is an easy target for the so-called experts, and particularly those with an anti-Carlton axe to grind.  If we hold our nerve, they will be eating their words.

With all of our medical issues this season, I'd like to add some more mystery to the picture.
Why the hell are our guys getting "cupping" therapy?

With all of our medical issues this season, I'd like to add some more mystery to the picture.
Why the hell are our guys getting "cupping" therapy?

Cupping is brilliant for freeing up stiffness.

Cupping is brilliant for freeing up stiffness.

Sort of the opposite to Viagra?

Cupping is brilliant for freeing up stiffness.

i second and third that!

Unreal, even if it looks pretty ordinary for a good few days!

I think that Samo and others got more out going head to head with Mitchell than they would have trying to tag him - and they will get even more out of it when they do their reviews.

Ed is an ideal tagger because he can win his own ball while blanketing an opponent.  A young bloke like Samo or O’Brien would have to focus 100% on trying to stop Mitchell and the last thing we need is another player getting next to no possessions.

Bolts is an easy target for the so-called experts, and particularly those with an anti-Carlton axe to grind.  If we hold our nerve, they will be eating their words.

Agree 10-15 more years and they will look like fools

Agree 10-15 more years and they will look like fools

 ;D

I may not be around to bask in the glory ...

Sort of the opposite to Viagra?

Working the room nicely Cookie..... ;)....

;D

I may not be around to bask in the glory ...

I'll could be using the walking stick well and truly at least by then. Thinking EB will be too....lol.

Still, always hope. My old man is a Swans supporters, was born in 1929 and was only 4 when they won the flag in 1933. Thinking he'd never really see one they nailed the flag in 2005 at 76yo, then another at 83. You never know maybe even one more at 89, as he is now, or 90.

So there's hope!!!!

I don't have a problem with zones, I have a problem with Bolton's zone.

It doesn't work.

I'm not buying that our players are that bad. We have a bunch of talented kids who have absolutely no idea what they're doing out there.

We agree on this one!

New to this but just needed a forum to vent the frustration that most Blues fans are feeling at the moment. Yes, injuries have hurt, but the lack of depth and quality is there for all to see when some of the blokes getting games are just not AFL level. I was keen to see what Shaw offered but his two games have been dreadful....poor skills and decision making. Nick Graham will get 40+ possessions in the VFL and come back into the seniors and show why he's one of those in-between players. Turns it over far too often.

I know O'Brien is very young and in his first season but would love to know what the recruiters saw in him that warranted giving up a top 10 draft pick. Have watched a lot of games on TV this year and saw the Lions game live and he turns it over more than Andrew Carazzo! And I don't want to hear the term "elite runner"....no point in being an elite runner if you turn it over every time you get it. Elite running at Carlton is only good because you're chasing tail all day.

The concern is that of the young blokes drafted in the last 3 years, only Curnow looks like he's up to it at this stage. So many young blokes at other clubs have flourished in their first and second years but not at Carlton...and that's been a trait for a long time for some reason. Ross Lyon gets a lot of -ve criticism over this way for his coaching but he's playing a lot of young blokes and plenty of them look up to it already.....Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield etc.

The club took the official position it didn't want a priority pick!!! WTF....we might not want it but we sure as hell need it. If it's there, take it...it could be pick 2, 3 or 4 depending on which way the AFL go and depending on a compensation pick Gold Coast will get for Lynch. But if we can get it then seriously look at trading pick 1 to Adelaide for a combination of later first round picks or be bold and demand a quality player. Please don't blow more picks on picking up fringe players from other clubs who don't do anything for our list...we've got enough of those already.

The club could easily clean out another 10 list cloggers at the end of this season.

New to this but just needed a forum to vent the frustration that most Blues fans are feeling at the moment. Yes, injuries have hurt, but the lack of depth and quality is there for all to see when some of the blokes getting games are just not AFL level. I was keen to see what Shaw offered but his two games have been dreadful....poor skills and decision making. Nick Graham will get 40+ possessions in the VFL and come back into the seniors and show why he's one of those in-between players. Turns it over far too often.

I know O'Brien is very young and in his first season but would love to know what the recruiters saw in him that warranted giving up a top 10 draft pick. Have watched a lot of games on TV this year and saw the Lions game live and he turns it over more than Andrew Carazzo! And I don't want to hear the term "elite runner"....no point in being an elite runner if you turn it over every time you get it. Elite running at Carlton is only good because you're chasing tail all day.

The concern is that of the young blokes drafted in the last 3 years, only Curnow looks like he's up to it at this stage. So many young blokes at other clubs have flourished in their first and second years but not at Carlton...and that's been a trait for a long time for some reason. Ross Lyon gets a lot of -ve criticism over this way for his coaching but he's playing a lot of young blokes and plenty of them look up to it already.....Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield etc.

The club took the official position it didn't want a priority pick!!! WTF....we might not want it but we sure as hell need it. If it's there, take it...it could be pick 2, 3 or 4 depending on which way the AFL go and depending on a compensation pick Gold Coast will get for Lynch. But if we can get it then seriously look at trading pick 1 to Adelaide for a combination of later first round picks or be bold and demand a quality player. Please don't blow more picks on picking up fringe players from other clubs who don't do anything for our list...we've got enough of those already.

The club could easily clean out another 10 list cloggers at the end of this season.

If you keep posting common sense stuff like that you will quickly become unpopular ;)...just kidding, some good observations and agree especially on Obrien.....10 list cloggers....yep plus a couple more IMHO...Shaw is a banana and I am not shaw why SOS wanted him....

New to this but just needed a forum to vent the frustration that most Blues fans are feeling at the moment. Yes, injuries have hurt, but the lack of depth and quality is there for all to see when some of the blokes getting games are just not AFL level. I was keen to see what Shaw offered but his two games have been dreadful....poor skills and decision making. Nick Graham will get 40+ possessions in the VFL and come back into the seniors and show why he's one of those in-between players. Turns it over far too often.

I know O'Brien is very young and in his first season but would love to know what the recruiters saw in him that warranted giving up a top 10 draft pick. Have watched a lot of games on TV this year and saw the Lions game live and he turns it over more than Andrew Carazzo! And I don't want to hear the term "elite runner"....no point in being an elite runner if you turn it over every time you get it. Elite running at Carlton is only good because you're chasing tail all day.

The concern is that of the young blokes drafted in the last 3 years, only Curnow looks like he's up to it at this stage. So many young blokes at other clubs have flourished in their first and second years but not at Carlton...and that's been a trait for a long time for some reason. Ross Lyon gets a lot of -ve criticism over this way for his coaching but he's playing a lot of young blokes and plenty of them look up to it already.....Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield etc.

The club took the official position it didn't want a priority pick!!! WTF....we might not want it but we sure as hell need it. If it's there, take it...it could be pick 2, 3 or 4 depending on which way the AFL go and depending on a compensation pick Gold Coast will get for Lynch. But if we can get it then seriously look at trading pick 1 to Adelaide for a combination of later first round picks or be bold and demand a quality player. Please don't blow more picks on picking up fringe players from other clubs who don't do anything for our list...we've got enough of those already.

The club could easily clean out another 10 list cloggers at the end of this season.

Welcome.

Bang. Ripper first contribution. No arguments here, either. Something is not right with our coaching re your observations of our newbies. Just looking at other clubs with newbies that seem to just fly past us.

And SOS hasn't impressed with some of the sludge or injury prone stuff he's brought in. I know he said we drafted for short term roles at the club... but a few games of VFL standard is not a good deal.

And our medical room needs some heat as well. How often have we had blokes come back too soon and break down in their first game back? Other clubs seem to have much better medical track records.

@WASurfer

Welcome aboard! All very valid questions and observations.

@WASurfer

Welcome to the site and a great first up contribution. You'll find that folks don't always agree with everything you may write but you will find appreciation if you express it in a similar fashion to your first up effort.
Keep posting.

New to this but just needed a forum to vent the frustration that most Blues fans are feeling at the moment. Yes, injuries have hurt, but the lack of depth and quality is there for all to see when some of the blokes getting games are just not AFL level. I was keen to see what Shaw offered but his two games have been dreadful....poor skills and decision making. Nick Graham will get 40+ possessions in the VFL and come back into the seniors and show why he's one of those in-between players. Turns it over far too often.

I know O'Brien is very young and in his first season but would love to know what the recruiters saw in him that warranted giving up a top 10 draft pick. Have watched a lot of games on TV this year and saw the Lions game live and he turns it over more than Andrew Carazzo! And I don't want to hear the term "elite runner"....no point in being an elite runner if you turn it over every time you get it. Elite running at Carlton is only good because you're chasing tail all day.

The concern is that of the young blokes drafted in the last 3 years, only Curnow looks like he's up to it at this stage. So many young blokes at other clubs have flourished in their first and second years but not at Carlton...and that's been a trait for a long time for some reason. Ross Lyon gets a lot of -ve criticism over this way for his coaching but he's playing a lot of young blokes and plenty of them look up to it already.....Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield etc.

The club took the official position it didn't want a priority pick!!! WTF....we might not want it but we sure as hell need it. If it's there, take it...it could be pick 2, 3 or 4 depending on which way the AFL go and depending on a compensation pick Gold Coast will get for Lynch. But if we can get it then seriously look at trading pick 1 to Adelaide for a combination of later first round picks or be bold and demand a quality player. Please don't blow more picks on picking up fringe players from other clubs who don't do anything for our list...we've got enough of those already.

The club could easily clean out another 10 list cloggers at the end of this season.

I disagree with most of that ... but welcome anyway WASurfer  :)

Looking forward to more well thought out and well expressed posts!

@WAsurfer

I agree with everything you’ve said.  I have to bite my tongue whenever posters on here or anyone in the media says “the talent is there ...”.

Is it? I’ve heard it so much i’m starting to think there’s something wrong with my eyes or I know nothing about football despite having attended roughly 1,000 Carlton games over 50 years.

@WAsurfer

I agree with everything you’ve said.  I have to bite my tongue whenever posters on here or anyone in the media says “the talent is there ...”.

Is it? I’ve heard it so much i’m starting to think there’s something wrong with my eyes or I know nothing about football despite having attended roughly 1,000 Carlton games over 50 years.

I can only go by my opinion, and once again I believe the talent is genuinely there, we are only seeing it for bits and pieces of the game.

At the end of this season, I am going to show a table of our players average time on ground percentage (some of which will be thrown out by mid game injury) but I think we are going to find that we have a large number of players spending a lot of time on the ground at advanced ages, and the younger players spending significantly less time on ground.

I can only go by my opinion, and once again I believe the talent is genuinely there, we are only seeing it for bits and pieces of the game.

At the end of this season, I am going to show a table of our players average time on ground percentage (some of which will be thrown out by mid game injury) but I think we are going to find that we have a large number of players spending a lot of time on the ground at advanced ages, and the younger players spending significantly less time on ground.

I think that there is talent there ... but it is spread too thin and hasn’t been given time to mature.

I suspect that we will have quite a few players who have spent more time on the ground than is usual.  Several games with a reduced bench will have contributed to that but I reckon that we are asking a lot of our players and they are feeling it.

I think that there is talent there ... but it is spread too thin and hasn’t been given time to mature.

I suspect that we will have quite a few players who have spent more time on the ground than is usual.  Several games with a reduced bench will have contributed to that but I reckon that we are asking a lot of our players and they are feeling it.

Earlier this season I saw 34 year old Kade Simpson registering 95% plus time on ground percentages, and he hasnt exactly been marking space in back pocket all season.

Ditto Ed Curnow who is pretty much an everywhere man.

The kids were in the 60's (kennedy, DOw, SPS).  If you have 4 players playing less than 3/4 of football, you are effectively using one bench spot on them each quarter meaning everyone else is significantly impacted.

Earlier this season I saw 34 year old Kade Simpson registering 95% plus time on ground percentages, and he hasnt exactly been marking space in back pocket all season.

Ditto Ed Curnow who is pretty much an everywhere man.

The kids were in the 60's (kennedy, DOw, SPS).  If you have 4 players playing less than 3/4 of football, you are effectively using one bench spot on them each quarter meaning everyone else is significantly impacted.

Something that for me at least gets forgotten in the "play the kids" mentality. The impact of that rotation down on other players is quite significant, and we are being forced to play more and more of the kids.

Something that for me at least gets forgotten in the "play the kids" mentality. The impact of that rotation down on other players is quite significant, and we are being forced to play more and more of the kids.

Depends on your kids, our are usually the smaller lighter types, you look at Rayner from Brisbane and he is actually playing better as the season progresses.....Witherden, Berry, McInerny etc all on the improve.....They are being well led though by Beams, Hodge, Martin, Robbo etc...

I agree, LOB case in point has looked better the longer the season has progressed. But if they are only averaging 60% on field, that's a big impact on other players who are having to spend more time on the ground to compensate.

@WAsurfer

I agree with everything you’ve said.  I have to bite my tongue whenever posters on here or anyone in the media says “the talent is there ...”.

Is it? I’ve heard it so much i’m starting to think there’s something wrong with my eyes or I know nothing about football despite having attended roughly 1,000 Carlton games over 50 years.

Not one of the u18s we have drafted the last 3 years has been a bust. There's alot of talent in that group and alot are playing. One looks a superstar in Charlie. Some better than others, but plenty of ability. We have the likes of a real superstar in Cripps, Simmo, Murphy, Kreuzer, Kennedy, who has really picked up since he got fit, Marchbank, Ed Curnow, Pickett, even Thomas, although his best is past him. We mightn't go through to the whole 22 but there's plenty there do do alot better than we are, which is nearly winless. Certainly not enough to play finals but enough there to be doing alot better.

So the question get asked, why do we get pumped miserably every week?

Thanks for the welcome folks. Just to qualify my original post, I wasn't trying to knock individual players as such...they can only put up what they've got and then clubs/recruiters decide their worth. My point was more about the development of the young blokes and how it just seems to have stalled and whether that's an indictment on the club or its systems or coaching methods? Jacob Weitering is the classic example. In his debut year I think we all marvelled at how composed he was....commentators were saying he looked like a bloke who'd played 100 games. Fast forward 2 years and he's a shadow of himself....looks bereft of confidence, some bad skill errors and decision making and most of the time he looks like a deer caught in the spotlights. Last weekend was probably the best game he's played this year. No doubt it would be hard to play in a backline under siege but if it's because of the lack of more experienced blokes around him then that goes back to some earlier recruiting too?

It's hard to know how long it's going to take. No Free Agents will be putting their hand up to go to a team that's parked on the bottom of the ladder. If we can get a priority pick around pick 4 then offload pick 1 to Adelaide so they can get the SA boy they want and demand quality in return...go for a Mitch McGovern or a Tom Lynch AND a first round pick...turn an early pick into another pick and a quality player. But the problem in getting the quality blokes is they won't want to go to a team that is conceivably 3-5 years away from playing finals.

I've loved the Blues for more than 35 years and will be a supporter forever....but I'm tired of getting No.1 draft picks and still not moving up the ladder.

Not one of the u18s we have drafted the last 3 years has been a bust. There's alot of talent in that group and alot are playing. One looks a superstar in Charlie. Some better than others, but plenty of ability. We have the likes of a real superstar in Cripps, Simmo, Murphy, Kreuzer, Kennedy, who has really picked up since he got fit, Marchbank, Ed Curnow, Pickett, even Thomas, although his best is past him. We mightn't go through to the whole 22 but there's plenty there do do alot better than we are, which is nearly winless. Certainly not enough to play finals but enough there to be doing alot better.

So the question get asked, why do we get pumped miserably every week?

I'm not sold on our U18 talent as being all that great at this stage...Charlie aside there is no proven match winning talent that I can see and its all hope and promise without much delivery at this stage....I wouldnt call anyone a real bust either as its too early to tell but there are a few who worry me  ...

re: Kennedy...better but no star...B-C grade battler who is slow and whose kicking is average at best.....
     Marchbank...talented but cant stay on the park and not true KP, we need another big key defender like May from GC to see the best of Marchbank IMO.
     Pickett...I like him as he has real flair but struggles to get on the park and doesnt ever get continuity to give you 4 quarters.....

I'm not sold on our U18 talent as being all that great at this stage...Charlie aside there is no proven match winning talent that I can see and its all hope and promise without much delivery at this stage....I wouldnt call anyone a real bust either as its too early to tell but there are a few who worry me  ...

re: Kennedy...better but no star...B-C grade battler who is slow and whose kicking is average at best.....
     Marchbank...talented but cant stay on the park and not true KP, we need another big key defender like May from GC to see the best of Marchbank IMO.
     Pickett...I like him as he has real flair but struggles to get on the park and doesnt ever get continuity to give you 4 quarters.....

It looks like we are reluctant to try mature age recruits for KPP roles, in that regard we must be focused long term game because most of the kids in the KPP class will be nothing worth talking about for 3 or 4 years at least!

I'm not sold on our U18 talent as being all that great at this stage...Charlie aside there is no proven match winning talent that I can see and its all hope and promise without much delivery at this stage....I wouldnt call anyone a real bust either as its too early to tell but there are a few who worry me  ...

re: Kennedy...better but no star...B-C grade battler who is slow and whose kicking is average at best.....
     Marchbank...talented but cant stay on the park and not true KP, we need another big key defender like May from GC to see the best of Marchbank IMO.
     Pickett...I like him as he has real flair but struggles to get on the park and doesnt ever get continuity to give you 4 quarters.....

There's no busts among them, at least this far. Plenty have shown they can play at AFL level, obviously some better than others.

What I was try to say though was those players are alot better than a onecein season. That was the point I was trying to make. I just asked why.

Curnow and Fisher I'm confident about.
Many of the others show some good signs and a few of them will no doubt be long term players....but we need to see a bit more before declaring them a success.
If you read back on many of the threads of some of our recruits of the last decade the signs were promising...but they're gone.

It all boils down to development of the talent...and that's a job for the coaches, whoever they may be, over the next couple of years.
It will be task made easier with a couple of 22-26 year old experienced, elite players to serve as examples.

Bolton's there for the next twelve months at least.
There may be noise about changes around him....but he won't be replaced in the short term.
That noise isn't strong enough.

Curnow and Fisher I'm confident about.
Many of the others show some good signs and a few of them will no doubt be long term players....but we need to see a bit more before declaring them a success.
If you read back on many of the threads of some of our recruits of the last decade the signs were promising...but they're gone.

It all boils down to development of the talent...and that's a job for the coaches, whoever they may be, over the next couple of years.
It will be task made easier with a couple of 22-26 year old experienced, elite players to serve as examples.

Bolton's there for the next twelve months at least.
There may be noise about changes around him....but he won't be replaced in the short term.
That noise isn't strong enough.

No obvious candidate for the job either, I'll give Bolton 12 months then MLG and SOS will sacrifice him to save themselves IMO.....the spectre of Ros Lyon might start shadowing
the club by then as well if Freo are not doing so well.Like an Italian cruise ship captain Ross doesnt mind abandoning the ship(see Stkilda) when the going gets tough and he might want a fresh start with some old friends like MLG and SOS to welcome him onboard a new club......unless he thinks we are too Titanic like and wants something a bit more cruisy....

Earlier this season I saw 34 year old Kade Simpson registering 95% plus time on ground percentages, and he hasnt exactly been marking space in back pocket all season.

Ditto Ed Curnow who is pretty much an everywhere man.

The kids were in the 60's (kennedy, DOw, SPS).  If you have 4 players playing less than 3/4 of football, you are effectively using one bench spot on them each quarter meaning everyone else is significantly impacted.

It wouldn’t surprise me if our younger blokes are playing more minutes/games than their peers at other clubs.

I think that we’ve rushed players back after injury - Kennedy for example - and have had to manage their workload/TOG.

The cupboard is pretty bare and it’s worse with Jones and Fisher out.

Curnow and Fisher I'm confident about.
Many of the others show some good signs and a few of them will no doubt be long term players....but we need to see a bit more before declaring them a success.
If you read back on many of the threads of some of our recruits of the last decade the signs were promising...but they're gone.

It all boils down to development of the talent...and that's a job for the coaches, whoever they may be, over the next couple of years.
It will be task made easier with a couple of 22-26 year old experienced, elite players to serve as examples.

Bolton's there for the next twelve months at least.
There may be noise about changes around him....but he won't be replaced in the short term.
That noise isn't strong enough.

Historically though, under old regimes we'd have busts already. We don't have any of those yet, even the ones in the picks 50,60s, maybe even 70s range. We're getting good footy out of the likes of Curnow and Fisher obviously, Weitering looked so much better in a proper role, Mckay, although not in Curnow's class yet, looks like he belongs at this level. Dow and O'Brien have certainly been worth the picks and Williamson looks a good type. Like to see more from SPS especially, Cunningham and SOJ, but a couple of those will do better in their right roles, but they show the ability to get there. SOJ looks like he'll go ok in defence. Like to see the likes of Macreadie have a bit more luck.

Some will be very good, some solid, some even just good to foot soldiers but so far no busts, at least thus far, a novelty at Carlton. That will have to be useful to us somewhere, surely.  Polson maybe the one who's been least impressive but he has a good crack and played his best game last week.

Shows our mindset, not so much on how many become really good, but relieved there's no busts yet...lol.

And sounds like Shumacher (sp?) had a break uot game in the NB's match on the weekend....

Just need to add 2-3 seasoned mids to the group.

No obvious candidate for the job either, I'll give Bolton 12 months then MLG and SOS will sacrifice him to save themselves IMO.....the spectre of Ros Lyon might start shadowing
the club by then as well if Freo are not doing so well.Like an Italian cruise ship captain Ross doesnt mind abandoning the ship(see Stkilda) when the going gets tough and he might want a fresh start with some old friends like MLG and SOS to welcome him onboard a new club......unless he thinks we are too Titanic like and wants something a bit more cruisy....

Maybe the seas we sail are a bit too stormy for Ross? Rounding the Horn in winter would likely not be his first preference. Honestly and seriously, I would be pretty damned mad if he gets the gig.

No obvious candidate for the job either, I'll give Bolton 12 months then MLG and SOS will sacrifice him to save themselves IMO.....the spectre of Ros Lyon might start shadowing
the club by then as well if Freo are not doing so well.Like an Italian cruise ship captain Ross doesnt mind abandoning the ship(see Stkilda) when the going gets tough and he might want a fresh start with some old friends like MLG and SOS to welcome him onboard a new club......unless he thinks we are too Titanic like and wants something a bit more cruisy....

Yep. Seems we've replaced one boy's club for another... MLG/SOS/Juddy/Juddy's new Board Member buddy... Ross Lyon would complete the picture... for them, that is.

Historically though, under old regimes we'd have busts already. We don't have any of those yet, even the ones in the picks 50,60s, maybe even 70s range. We're getting good footy out of the likes of Curnow and Fisher obviously, Weitering looked so much better in a proper role, Mckay, although not in Curnow's class yet, looks like he belongs at this level. Dow and O'Brien have certainly been worth the picks and Williamson looks a good type. Like to see more from SPS especially, Cunningham and SOJ, but a couple of those will do better in their right roles, but they show the ability to get there. SOJ looks like he'll go ok in defence. Like to see the likes of Macreadie have a bit more luck.

Some will be very good, some solid, some even just good to foot soldiers but so far no busts, at least thus far, a novelty at Carlton. That will have to be useful to us somewhere, surely.  Polson maybe the one who's been least impressive but he has a good crack and played his best game last week.

Shows our mindset, not so much on how many become really good, but relieved there's no busts yet...lol.

Not convinced about OBrien.....for a pick 10 he has poor attack on the ball at times very outside, disposal has been horrendous IMO and along with Polson is the least impressive IMO....Polsons skills are poor and his nous for a AFL player is high school like...but he does have a go and I guess thats a starting point.
Cuningham...more talent and better attack on the ball than OBrien but spasmodic in his efforts, its when he feels like it...
SPS...like his talent and skill ,thats not the problem as it wasnt with Chris Yarran...its more of the same we get with Cuningham its when he feels like going he does or he can go missing for long periods.
Weitering....talent and maturity is there but the confidence has taking a pounding after a few nasty hits and he is treacle slow and I mean slow....he needs remedial sprint work just to be average paced. He isnt a physical unit like a Jeremy Mcgovern so he needs to be quicker and more athletic and he isnt ,thats his problem.

Mckay......got talent and skill but looks like he is playing games on his phone at times and just cruising along like life is easy and there isnt much need to hurry or
over exert himself...yet to figure out if that is just Harry being laconic or he really cant be stuffed getting a sweat up.
Jack....feel a bit sorry for Jack, hard gig following the old man and extra hard when your old man is the head recruiter and you were a 50/50 pick given your TAC form was ok but not a brilliant.
He does have a crack does Jack and seems to want to learn and cement a spot, he isnt quick, kicking skills are fair and hasnt got the natural ability of some of the other draftees but he will give you a contest
and is willing to play anywhere so I'll cut him some slack given he has a bit more pressure on him.

Dow....got some raw talent especially pace which we need,just needs to find a few gears and use the ball better at times...more convinced about him being ok though than a few others.
Attack on the ball is good and he is a good size for the modern midfielder......

Williamson is a good footballer, liked him from day 1...good size, has a go and a great kick...only worry are those back injuries long term..

MacReadie....honest backman, good attitude, lacks a bit of natural nous and can make ordinary decisions under pressure...50/50 to make it...

Fisher....been great, wanted him pre draft after his championship form and he hasnt let anyone down, like Kade Simpson he seems  to contribute every game
and he has the smarts in traffic which only the real good players have..big tick

Historically though, under old regimes we'd have busts already. We don't have any of those yet, even the ones in the picks 50,60s, maybe even 70s range. We're getting good footy out of the likes of Curnow and Fisher obviously, Weitering looked so much better in a proper role, Mckay, although not in Curnow's class yet, looks like he belongs at this level. Dow and O'Brien have certainly been worth the picks and Williamson looks a good type. Like to see more from SPS especially, Cunningham and SOJ, but a couple of those will do better in their right roles, but they show the ability to get there. SOJ looks like he'll go ok in defence. Like to see the likes of Macreadie have a bit more luck.

Some will be very good, some solid, some even just good to foot soldiers but so far no busts, at least thus far, a novelty at Carlton. That will have to be useful to us somewhere, surely.  Polson maybe the one who's been least impressive but he has a good crack and played his best game last week.

Shows our mindset, not so much on how many become really good, but relieved there's no busts yet...lol.

While I tend to agree with you that 1 out of 17 isn't good enough....and the young ones are promising...
one of the things we're not seeing with them, and also with the older players, is continuity.

Rarely (if at all) have we fielded the same side this year.
It's hard to get a combination  and understanding going if the bloke alongside you is constantly changing.
Only 4 of our players have played every game this year

Just with the kids...
Dow, Fisher, SPS and Charlie have had plenty of game time, and as a result have probably shown the most, 
but down the list.... through injury and omission

Weitering 11
Silvagni 11
McKay 8
Polson 7
Cunningham 5
Kerr 4
Williamson 0
Macreadie 0

and next cabs off the rank....
De Koning 0
Schumacher 0

Key players.....
Kreuzer 12
Murphy 8
Docherty 0...have missed plenty.

and some of the players from other clubs recruited to boost us have struggled for games. (some might suggest one or two might have had too many ;) :D )

Mullett 11
Garlett 11
Kennedy 10
Lang 6
Pickett 4
Lobbe 1

Others already on the list from last season have also missed through injury or form

Plowman 13
Casboult 10
Kerridge 8
Graham 8
Marchbank 7
Phillips 5
Byrne 2

We've used a lot of players this year but the combination has been anything but settled.

Not convinced about OBrien.....for a pick 10 he has poor attack on the ball at times very outside, disposal has been horrendous IMO and along with Polson is the least impressive IMO....Polsons skills are poor and his nous for a AFL player is high school like...but he does have a go and I guess thats a starting point.
Cuningham...more talent and better attack on the ball than OBrien but spasmodic in his efforts, its when he feels like it...
SPS...like his talent and skill ,thats not the problem as it wasnt with Chris Yarran...its more of the same we get with Cuningham its when he feels like going he does or he can go missing for long periods.
Weitering....talent and maturity is there but the confidence has taking a pounding after a few nasty hits and he is treacle slow and I mean slow....he needs remedial sprint work just to be average paced. He isnt a physical unit like a Jeremy Mcgovern so he needs to be quicker and more athletic and he isnt ,thats his problem.

Mckay......got talent and skill but looks like he is playing games on his phone at times and just cruising along like life is easy and there isnt much need to hurry or
over exert himself...yet to figure out if that is just Harry being laconic or he really cant be stuffed getting a sweat up.
Jack....feel a bit sorry for Jack, hard gig following the old man and extra hard when your old man is the head recruiter and you were a 50/50 pick given your TAC form was ok but not a brilliant.
He does have a crack does Jack and seems to want to learn and cement a spot, he isnt quick, kicking skills are fair and hasnt got the natural ability of some of the other draftees but he will give you a contest
and is willing to play anywhere so I'll cut him some slack given he has a bit more pressure on him.

Dow....got some raw talent especially pace which we need,just needs to find a few gears and use the ball better at times...more convinced about him being ok though than a few others.
Attack on the ball is good and he is a good size for the modern midfielder......

Williamson is a good footballer, liked him from day 1...good size, has a go and a great kick...only worry are those back injuries long term..

MacReadie....honest backman, good attitude, lacks a bit of natural nous and can make ordinary decisions under pressure...50/50 to make it...

Fisher....been great, wanted him pre draft after his championship form and he hasnt let anyone down, like Kade Simpson he seems  to contribute every game
and he has the smarts in traffic which only the real good players have..big tick

O'Brien now i'm liking more each game. Things might well come further with confidence, and more size. I do want to see more from SPS and Cunningham as both have more. Players that are a bit "choosy" and we have had a few of them, can be a coaching issue when you have a few of them in contrast to the odd one. I'm sure we don't recruit them that way, like we don't draft crappy kicks, just turn out that way when they come here. Harry has been working much better since he has spent alot more time on the ball. Certainly hasn't minded contested situations in the last couple of weeks. again, that could be confidence. As I said, like to see more of Macreadie as I haven't seen enough of him yet. His first few games were promising but hasn't had alot of luck since. We have enough there though we can certainly build on. A few will be really good, some good, some decent foot soldiers, as with most draftees, and maybe the odd couple might fall by the wayside for some reason, but we've drafted more ability than we did pre-SOS era. Hopefully between all those we'll eventually have enough players amongst the lesser one's we drafted to have a decent bottom 6 in the 22.

Looking forward to seeing Schumacher and De Koning, On exposed VFL form we have something there. TDK could turn our well and jump McKay but time will tell.

While I tend to agree with you that 1 out of 17 isn't good enough....and the young ones are promising...
one of the things we're not seeing with them, and also with the older players, is continuity.

Rarely (if at all) have we fielded the same side this year.
It's hard to get a combination  and understanding going if the bloke alongside you is constantly changing.
Only 4 of our players have played every game this year

Just with the kids...
Dow, Fisher, SPS and Charlie have had plenty of game time, and as a result have probably shown the most, 
but down the list.... through injury and omission

Weitering 11
Silvagni 11
McKay 8
Polson 7
Cunningham 5
Kerr 4
Williamson 0
Macreadie 0

and next cabs off the rank....
De Koning 0
Schumacher 0

Key players.....
Kreuzer 12
Murphy 8
Docherty 0...have missed plenty.

and some of the players from other clubs recruited to boost us have struggled for games. (some might suggest one or two might have had too many ;) :D )

Mullett 11
Garlett 11
Kennedy 10
Lang 6
Pickett 4
Lobbe 1

Others already on the list from last season have also missed through injury or form

Plowman 13
Casboult 10
Kerridge 8
Graham 8
Marchbank 7
Phillips 5
Byrne 2

We've used a lot of players this year but the combination has been anything but settled.

All ok if we had 5 wins, played competitively, and I could see some structure in a plan, I'd run with that given our injury luck. Just can't excuse one win, alot of thrashings from craps sides, as what we send out there, even with injuries is better than that.

@ EB1 two posts back. Excellent summary of where most players are at in my opinion.

I dunno guys, I wish I could share your optimism. I really do. Maybe I'm being exposed for the cynic I am.
In fact, my home game timetable is to txt my mate in the morning and agree on meeting time. Last week he couldn't go but lamented the fact that he will miss watching the youngsters develop.  There's your definition of an optimist right there.

What's telling for me is EB1's comment that Kennedy's kicking is average at best.  HOW CAN THIS BE?  Please complete the name of our game: Australian ____ball.  Name one person in Richmond whose kicking is not up to speed.  How did Hawthorn win 3 flags in a row?

How I would love to be a fly on the wall during recruitment meetings ...

Ok everyone, the next highlights package is a youngster by the name of x.  As you can see, his kicking's not great but he's a good kid and I think he's worth a shot.

Not one of the u18s we have drafted the last 3 years has been a bust.

....yet.


SPS has gone backwards this year.
Weitering has gone backwards also.
OBrien is lacking any real influence on games at this stage.
McKay is showing potential, but is lucky to touch the ball a handful of times in 2 hours of football.
Cunningham has plenty of question marks on him.
Jack has just been moved to his 3rd (of 3) part of the ground in an attempt to find him a role.
Kerr is having very limited influence on games
Polsen is far from convincing and lucky to get a contract extension.
Macreadie and Williamson have question marks on their body.
DeKoning and Schumacher haven't fired a shot yet.

Fisher and Curnowfides, definite hits.
Dow is looking good without looking great.


I'd lock in 3 out of 15 at this stage.
The other 12 will most likely give us some players, but i guarantee some of them will be a bust.

Jason Cantstanyer kicks the footy like a bag of wheat,  worst set shot in the league by a country mile.  

Chickens came home to roost the previous weekend.... 0.5 doesn't win games.

SPS has gone backwards this year. Not far backwards, be he's not the first player to have the second year blues. It's not a bad thing gives him a taste of reality that it takes hard work as well as talent.
Weitering has gone backwards also. Interesting that he has started to look much better over the last couple of weeks and I'd say is nearly back to Weitering of old, seems to preform better when he's the main gun down back.
OBrien is lacking any real influence on games at this stage. Is just a kid and has improved on what we first saw, right attitude and has a high football iq will be outstanding in years to come and if you can't see that ....
McKay is showing potential, but is lucky to touch the ball a handful of times in 2 hours of football. Is very young and is developing, needs a few more years to really match it with key defenders, but again took 8 marks on the weekend.
Cunningham has plenty of question marks on him. Has some question marks on him but the best of him is what we are lacking, straight line attacking player with pace and a willingness to get his own ball
Jack has just been moved to his 3rd (of 3) part of the ground in an attempt to find him a role. How many 4th round picks make it?
Kerr is having very limited influence on games How many 4th round picks make it
Polsen is far from convincing and lucky to get a contract extension. Played his best game against Hawthorn and may have needed that block of games to gain confidence, is fast, tough (knocked out and still played on) and a very willing tackler, under 10 games.
Macreadie and Williamson have question marks on their body. This is laughable - Williamson is still growing much the same as Harry did in his first season and was doing weights putting pressure on his spine. 15 games in his first year and a hot spot on his back so the club did the right thing and shut him down. Macreadie again was young and possibly still growing while doing weights and has been having hamstring problems which again are connected to the back and if still growing will create problems.
DeKoning and Schumacher haven't fired a shot yet. Schumacher was BOG in the 2s and in his first year DeKoning is a big man playing behind other young bigs.

How you could write anyone off yet, or even suggest it is beyond me. That being said I hold fears ATM for Jack and Kerr and would think that if they weren't who they are they wouldn't have played half the amount of games they had.

Fisher and Curnowfides, definite hits.
Dow is looking good without looking great.


I'd lock in 3 out of 15 at this stage.
The other 12 will most likely give us some players, but i guarantee some of them will be a bust.

Hang on Raydan, you've come in like a whirlwind as your avatar suggests and misread the room.

I'm not writing anyone off yet. Just pointing out that plenty have question marks.

Sheer %'s tell you that they won't all make it. That's the point of the above.

Some won't make it and if they don't, i've listed a reason as to why that might be the case.

Of sos draftees the ones that I have locked in to be 100-200 game players are:

Williamson
Fisher
Dow
Curnow
Weitering
sps

The rest might or might not get there, but they have the tools and the opportunity to get there with polson being my only question mark.

Reminder: look at our list.  This is a fairly good strike rate from three drafts.

Of sos draftees the ones that I have locked in to be 100-200 game players are:

Williamson
Fisher
Dow
Curnow
Weitering
sps

The rest might or might not get there, but they have the tools and the opportunity to get there with polson being my only question mark.

Reminder: look at our list.  This is a fairly good strike rate from three drafts.

At this stage yes.

Look at any list and look at the past 2 years, and everyone drafted is still on it, they have to be.
3 years? Only the truly awful are cut in that time.

Most clubs have most players from the past 3 years still on their list, so its not unusual.

History tells you though, that a 100% strikerate is simply not possible. Thus, some won't make it. There's a multitude of reasons why. Too many to give an exhaustive list on.
I'd agree with anyone that is certainly looks promising. But it doesn't matter how many happy pills I, or anyone, happen to pop, there will be a downside and some won't cut it as AFL footballers. If i'm perceived to be 'negative' for suggesting that, so be it. But revisit this in another few years and i bet my balls that some of those 15 players are no longer on our list.

At this stage yes.

Look at any list and look at the past 2 years, and everyone drafted is still on it, they have to be.
3 years? Only the truly awful are cut in that time.

Most clubs have most players from the past 3 years still on their list, so its not unusual.

History tells you though, that a 100% strikerate is simply not possible. Thus, some won't make it. There's a multitude of reasons why. Too many to give an exhaustive list on.
I'd agree with anyone that is certainly looks promising. But it doesn't matter how many happy pills I, or anyone, happen to pop, there will be a downside and some won't cut it as AFL footballers. If i'm perceived to be 'negative' for suggesting that, so be it. But revisit this in another few years and i bet my balls that some of those 15 players are no longer on our list.

I think you misunderstood.

When I said look at our list, I meant in regards to previous draftees.

Of our previous draftees not many looked like being 100+ gamers.  We've hit at least six in the last three drafts.

I think you misunderstood.

When I said look at our list, I meant in regards to previous draftees.

Of our previous draftees not many looked like being 100+ gamers.  We've hit at least six in the last three drafts.

...and go back and look at those same 'previous' drafts only a year or 2 after they occured, and all of those players were 100+ game players too.

We thought we'd never have to draft a KPP again after we got Watson, Mitchell and McCarthy in the same draft!  :-[

...and go back and look at those same 'previous' drafts only a year or 2 after they occured, and all of those players were 100+ game players too.

We thought we'd never have to draft a KPP again after we got Watson, Mitchell and McCarthy in the same draft!  :-[

Nope.  I disagree.  only our number one draft picks looked like 100+ gamers (and Mitch) the rest were all question marks and when we traded Kennedy I wasn't sold on him.  Hampson was never convincing.  Our rookies looked good but our draftees....

I thought Lucas would make it, but I was wrong.

The rest... Hampson, rohan Kerr, Watson, vjojo rainbow,  Temay,  Marcus davies, McCarthy,  Mitchell....  None of them showed even half the requisite ability to be an afl player.

Nope.  I disagree.  only our number one draft picks looked like 100+ gamers (and Mitch) the rest were all question marks and when we traded Kennedy I wasn't sold on him.  Hampson was never convincing.  Our rookies looked good but our draftees....

I thought Lucas would make it, but I was wrong.

The rest... Hampson, rohan Kerr, Watson, vjojo rainbow,  Temay,  Marcus davies, McCarthy,  Mitchell....  None of them showed even half the requisite ability to be an afl player.

Thats your opinion, and it differs from mine.

Kennedy, IMO, showed more than a lot of the blokes we have now.

Going back through the archives, i'm sure you'll find plenty of people extremely positive about most, if not all of those names.

Temay....caused dismay when drafted.   Never looked like making it. Awful pick.

We've had more hits than normally credited with: for example

Robinson,  Holman,  Gowers were later picks who can play.... Just not with us. All 100 gamers (or should be).

Russell, Yarran and Grigg hundred gamers. One a premiership player.

Of the misses:

Bootsma.  Never had attitude to make it, failed the no d!ckheads test. Badly compromised draft year.

I thought Dale looked OK,  lovely kick. Perhaps too lightly framed.

Left footed half back from SA with booming kick could play but foot injuries stuffed him,  ditto MacCarthy. MacCarthy looked as good as good as Scharenberg early on before injury.

Thats your opinion, and it differs from mine.

Kennedy, IMO, showed more than a lot of the blokes we have now.

Going back through the archives, i'm sure you'll find plenty of people extremely positive about most, if not all of those names.

Hand on your heart.  How many of our previous draftees look like they belong?

I was selective with the names I wrote.

I picked the blokes who look like they belong.

Not guys like o brien and Cunningham who have the tools but there are questions over.

We thought we'd never have to draft a KPP again after we got Watson, Mitchell and McCarthy in the same draft!  :-[

Mmmm... pass me the baby oil... ????

Hand on your heart.  How many of our previous draftees look like they belong?

I was selective with the names I wrote.

I picked the blokes who look like they belong.

Not guys like o brien and Cunningham who have the tools but there are questions over.

It doesn't matter what i think it matters what people who watched these kids in the U18's etc thought.

I remember some talk pre-draft abouth those kids.....which i just searched for from knightmare...
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/knightmares-2010-mock-draft.768543/

#18 (Carlton) – Matt Watson (VIC)
Height: 195cm, Weight: 101kg, DOB: 16/07/1992
Recruited from: Calder Cannons
Style: Michael Hurley/ Brian Lake
Likely destinations: 18-31
Why: Reads the play well. Strong mark overhead, has a thumping left foot and is a big readymade key position defender who can also play forward. Good enough to contribute from season one. Might get a little exposed on the lead with his slight lack of leg speed but otherwise I like Watson allot. In style really reminds me of Brian Lake with the way he provides good rebound from defence though that is a very generous comparison and it will be allot harder to dominate players physically as he did at U18 level. He will get every opportunity to have the near immediate impact that Michael Hurley did for Essendon a couple of years ago. Might play a couple of games in season one but expect from probably season two for Watson to really push for a position in this side.

We got him at 18.

#23 (Geelong) – Patrick McCarthy (SA)
Height: 196cm, Weight: 84kg, DOB: 11/03/1992
Recruited from: Glenelg
Style: Grant Birchall/ Ben Reid
Range: 11-23
Why: Key position defender. Clean hands and feet. Provides some run out of defence. Displays real leadership and could later on be captain material. Hasn’t always played as a backman and was once a ruckman so I see allot of development still once he learns the position. Has a skinny frame but he should add to that with time. One criticism of McCarthy when I have seen him down back is that he has the feel of an oversized half back flanker in the way Grant Birchall does for Hawthorn. Maybe when he develops more physically hopefully he can turn into something more like Collingwood’s Ben Reid which would be the hope. With Scarlett surely nearing the end of his career McCarthy could be a good long term replacement.

We got him at pick 34. Potential top round pick, we got at 34.

#47 (Richmond) - Luke Mitchell (VIC)
Height: 198cm, Weight: 96kg, DOB: 28/2/1992
Recruited from: Calder Cannons
Style: Jonathan Brown
Range: 26-late[
Why: Very strong overhead as well as on the lead. Powerfully built so maybe some questions on upside. Kicking can be a little off but once he gets it going can kick allot of goals. Missed the start of the season due to injury and came back mid way through to have some very strong games including a very strong TAC Cup Grand Final for the second year in a row which I’m sure will reflect favourably! Some think he might still go 1st round or very close to it but I think his draft range is a little more open than that. /quote]
We got him at 42.

We got 3 potentially 1st round KPPs.

The year after missing out on Talia for Lucas.

We were over the moon.
 :-[

FMD I was just getting over those shmucks, thanks guys ::)

FMD I was just getting over those shmucks, thanks guys ::)

I reckon those recruiters must have really hated Ratten - almost seems like a plan to recruit so many failures. 2 KPF and KPD who came to nothing. Mitchell and McCarthy 1 game each. Watson 23 games.

Oh well............

Plus McInnes who went later in that draft who looked a gun before blowing his knee, and Nick Duigan who was a damn fine player. 

We were cursed in that period.

I reckon those recruiters must have really hated Ratten - almost seems like a plan to recruit so many failures. 2 KPF and KPD who came to nothing. Mitchell and McCarthy 1 game each. Watson 23 games.

Oh well............

And later, Tom Farken Temay, Dillon Somewhere over the Rainbow. both 0 games. Its was a nightmare.

Plus McInnes who went later in that draft who looked a gun before blowing his knee, and Nick Duigan who was a damn fine player. 

We were cursed in that period.

Duigan was a good footballer and clubman, we should be looking at the State Leagues like the SANFL for more Duigan's who can play as well as guide our kids....and when I say State League players I mean hard nosed tough hombres who can play round 1 not  feather dusters like Boekhorst....

And later, Tom Farken Temay, Dillon Somewhere over the Rainbow. both 0 games. Its was a nightmare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKwwcCpa2Ag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKwwcCpa2Ag)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKwwcCpa2Ag (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKwwcCpa2Ag)

Indeed

I swore in front of my elderly mother when we drafted Temay,  but it was a dud draft.

I swore in front of my elderly mother when we drafted Temay,  but it was a dud draft.

Had his sights on life after footy did Tom Temay and wasnt as sold on a footy career as you need to be....doing very well in the Corporate Property World as a Market Analyst for a fancy Collins St
Property Company....

It doesn't matter what i think it matters what people who watched these kids in the U18's etc thought.

I remember some talk pre-draft abouth those kids.....which i just searched for from knightmare...
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/knightmares-2010-mock-draft.768543/We got him at 18.
We got him at pick 34. Potential top round pick, we got at 34.

Quote

#47 (Richmond) - Luke Mitchell (VIC)
Height: 198cm, Weight: 96kg, DOB: 28/2/1992
Recruited from: Calder Cannons
Style: Jonathan Brown
Range: 26-late[
Why: Very strong overhead as well as on the lead. Powerfully built so maybe some questions on upside. Kicking can be a little off but once he gets it going can kick allot of goals. Missed the start of the season due to injury and came back mid way through to have some very strong games including a very strong TAC Cup Grand Final for the second year in a row which I’m sure will reflect favourably! Some think he might still go 1st round or very close to it but I think his draft range is a little more open than that. /quote]
We got him at 42.

We got 3 potentially 1st round KPPs.

The year after missing out on Talia for Lucas.

We were over the moon.
 :-[

Not on draft day.

I'm basing this on watching people play football.

Not on pre draft write ups.

None of these guys looked like they belonged in an AFL jumper and it showed on game day (Watson showed glimpses sporadically) but none of them showed the sort of form to even get noticed.

You're better off referencing troy menzel.

He showed more ability than most drafted before him.

Most of the ex-player commentators are as weak as p1ss when it comes reportable incidents

I think I'll listen to ex players over dim witted supporters.

I think I'll listen to ex players over dim witted supporters.

 :D

So you accepted David King’s statement that Howe’s hit on Cripps was unintentional?

:D

So you accepted David King’s statement that Howe’s hit on Cripps was unintentional?

Obviously Cripps was trying to draw a free kick for high contact, he should be suspended for deliberately staging! ::)

It's ironic, the reporting, the assertions by some in the media that Cripps went down a little too easily, Patrick Cripps folded up, apparently under light physical pressure. ;)

While Joel Selwood apparently got cleaned up by the rampant ex-sling tackling hard-man Bryce Gibbs the week before with a savage hip and shoulder, once you are Carlton in the eyes of the media, you'll always be Carlton. You cannot escape it changing clubs, so you might as well make the most of it! ;D

Let's stop pretending the media isn't biased, and that there are no favorites!

Off the play as well,  should have been a lot more than two weeks.

Not on draft day.

I'm basing this on watching people play football.

Not on pre draft write ups.

None of these guys looked like they belonged in an AFL jumper and it showed on game day (Watson showed glimpses sporadically) but none of them showed the sort of form to even get noticed.

You're better off referencing troy menzel.

He showed more ability than most drafted before him.

As i said earlier, i didn't watch them play.
Just like i haven't seen Lukosius play this year. But going by what people have said...

I've had years where i've watched U18's comps and got on top of who has it and who hasn't, but not every year.
That year, i didn't see squat, thats why i remember going around reading what the boys were like. At the time, we clearly got some bargains based on what the majority of predictions were saying.

Question is, were those predictions wrong?
or
Did the carlton put the kiss of death on them like so many before them?

:D

So you accepted David King’s statement that Howe’s hit on Cripps was unintentional?

I'll take a 2 time premiership player's word over an internet fan but that's just me.

As i said earlier, i didn't watch them play.
Just like i haven't seen Lukosius play this year. But going by what people have said...

I've had years where i've watched U18's comps and got on top of who has it and who hasn't, but not every year.
That year, i didn't see squat, thats why i remember going around reading what the boys were like. At the time, we clearly got some bargains based on what the majority of predictions were saying.

Question is, were those predictions wrong?
or
Did the carlton put the kiss of death on them like so many before them?

This isn't the discussion.   Go back have a look at the post you initially poo pooed. 

I'll take a 2 time premiership player's word over an internet fan but that's just me.

You're taking the P here about the smack in the jaw to Cripps right?

This isn't the discussion.   Go back have a look at the post you initially poo pooed.

What i am saying is that right now, we are in the midst of our rebuild. Every kid is a winner right now because, we can't see otherwise.

I've pointed out that this is pretty much always the case when you are 'in the moment'. Its only with hindsight that we say 'this kid was never any good.'


I've tried to show you examples of that, which you disregard because it was not my personal opinion on them. I had no personal opinion on them because i didn't know them from a bar of soap, so i go through and see what the 'experts' thought at the time. That is, those players were not THAT bad.
So either we are incredibly unlucky and all our 'not bad' players turned out to be crap.
OR
We made them crap but not being able to develop them.

This was my original point.
People can't see how any of our players could even possibly turn out to be duds as they are all super amazing and awesome.
I'm just telling you that some will. Reality says they ALWAYS do.

What i am saying is that right now, we are in the midst of our rebuild. Every kid is a winner right now because, we can't see otherwise.

I've pointed out that this is pretty much always the case when you are 'in the moment'. Its only with hindsight that we say 'this kid was never any good.'


I've tried to show you examples of that, which you disregard because it was not my personal opinion on them. I had no personal opinion on them because i didn't know them from a bar of soap, so i go through and see what the 'experts' thought at the time. That is, those players were not THAT bad.
So either we are incredibly unlucky and all our 'not bad' players turned out to be crap.
OR
We made them crap but not being able to develop them.

This was my original point.
People can't see how any of our players could even possibly turn out to be duds as they are all super amazing and awesome.
I'm just telling you that some will. Reality says they ALWAYS do.

That's not what I'm saying either kruddler.   We have done an amazingly bad job at developing our draftees but we've had very few that made you stood up and say, gee we've found one here until now.

Yes rebuild etc, but that's not the point.  I pointed to players who aren't just promising.   They've arrived.  They are playing good footy and doing jobs ahead of their level.  I'm not reaching for a couple of draftees whom we think is talented and listing them as potential 100 gamers like David Cunningham.   I'm pointing at blokes who have played almost as much footy in year one at a higher standard than Matthew Watson did in his 23 games across five years at the club, and by the time he was done we were looking for players to start building around.

That's not what I'm saying either kruddler.   We have done an amazingly bad job at developing our draftees but we've had very few that made you stood up and say, gee we've found one here until now.

Yes rebuild etc, but that's not the point.  I pointed to players who aren't just promising.   They've arrived.  They are playing good footy and doing jobs ahead of their level.  I'm not reaching for a couple of draftees whom we think is talented and listing them as potential 100 gamers like David Cunningham.   I'm pointing at blokes who have played almost as much footy in year one at a higher standard than Matthew Watson did in his 23 games across five years at the club, and by the time he was done we were looking for players to start building around.

...and thats fine. The majority of which were taken higher in the draft, you expect them to show more than the blokes we drafted previously.

Williamson - 4th round
Fisher - 2nd round
Dow - 1st round
Curnow - 1st round
Weitering - pick 1
sps - 1st round

Those are the blokes you listed...and where they were taken. You expect them to see more time. But not all of them will live up to the high expectations we have of them right now.

Perhaps Weitering will be found to be too slow for AFL footy? (Especially with some potential changes coming in) Not strong enough for 1-on-1 defending? Perhaps.
Maybe SPS wants to go home and can't adjust to life in the spotlight.
Willo? Perhaps he continues to struggle with his body.

As i said, plenty of reasons why talented players don't make it on the list long term. Most of which is 'unforeseen'.
Its hard to predict why a player might not make it.
Its easy to predict that some players won't.

...and thats fine. The majority of which were taken higher in the draft, you expect them to show more than the blokes we drafted previously.

Williamson - 4th round
Fisher - 2nd round
Dow - 1st round
Curnow - 1st round
Weitering - pick 1
sps - 1st round

Those are the blokes you listed...and where they were taken. You expect them to see more time. But not all of them will live up to the high expectations we have of them right now.

Perhaps Weitering will be found to be too slow for AFL footy? (Especially with some potential changes coming in) Not strong enough for 1-on-1 defending? Perhaps.
Maybe SPS wants to go home and can't adjust to life in the spotlight.
Willo? Perhaps he continues to struggle with his body.

As i said, plenty of reasons why talented players don't make it on the list long term. Most of which is 'unforeseen'.
Its hard to predict why a player might not make it.
Its easy to predict that some players won't.

I don't know why you're fixated on their draft pick number.  We have had high draft picks that haven't looked as good before (Kennedy at the same stage, Russell,  Lucas) and to a lesser extent McKay has some severe question marks over his ability to compete at this level and ditto Cunningham,  but the blokes I've listed aren't just looking talented, they are playing good footy for their age group of draftees,  and in the case of Zac fisher, paddy Dow, and Charlie Curnow are among the first names written on the team sheet every week, and would be gobbled up by every team if for some reason they hit the trade table.

I understand that the chance is there that they don't make it, I appreciate that you're pointing to previous spuds as reasons why whom we had high hopes for, but the reality is that these guys will be Andrew mccinnes stories if they don't make it.  Copped a significant injury and were never the same rather than weren't capable and never looked it which is the whole underlying point of what I'm trying to say.

You are pointing out that current players are playing good footy early on. I'm saying that is partially because they were more readymade, we are desperate for talent and injuries are helping their cause. Together with the fact that were 1st round picks and more likely to be AFL ready from day 1. Whereas in the past...the same past where we refused to fully embrace the draft, by comparison, those blokes don't hold up. Well derr.

That doesn't mean they were not highly rated, which some were.
That doesn't mean that we didn't stuff up, which we did.

Overall, i'm just pointing out that most observations done now are done through the navy glasses in terms of young talent now.
Combined with hindisght pointing out our past mistakes were so obviously bad.

Reality is that our current crop are not going to be as good as we think (right now) and some will falter.
Along with the fact our previous players were not as bad as we remember them. We should share the blame for part of the reason for their failure.

You are pointing out that current players are playing good footy early on. I'm saying that is partially because they were more readymade, we are desperate for talent and injuries are helping their cause. Together with the fact that were 1st round picks and more likely to be AFL ready from day 1. Whereas in the past...the same past where we refused to fully embrace the draft, by comparison, those blokes don't hold up. Well derr.

That doesn't mean they were not highly rated, which some were.
That doesn't mean that we didn't stuff up, which we did.

Overall, i'm just pointing out that most observations done now are done through the navy glasses in terms of young talent now.
Combined with hindisght pointing out our past mistakes were so obviously bad.

Reality is that our current crop are not going to be as good as we think (right now) and some will falter.
Along with the fact our previous players were not as bad as we remember them. We should share the blame for part of the reason for their failure.

And I'm disagreeing that your point is valid, because if Dow, Weitering,  and Fisher are ready made players then every draftee is.

I'm not using navy blue glasses either.  I've selected the boys that I can see have the ability to be 100-200 game players.

Never said that. Not going to continue to repeat myself, but its all there.